The EU referendum (1 Viewer)

SIR ERNIE · Feb 21, 2016

Like it or not, it IS all about Sovereignty.

Many Britons are sick to the back teeth of unelected European bureaucrats dictating who and how many enter our country, sick and tired of not being allowed to implement their own laws.

Sick and tired of being subservient to faceless rulers.

Those are the important issues here.

Sick Boy · Feb 21, 2016

SIR ERNIE said:
Like it or not, it IS all about Sovereignty.

Many Britons are sick to the back teeth of unelected European bureaucrats dictating who and how many enter our country, sick and tired of not being allowed to implement their own laws.

Sick and tired of being subservient to faceless rulers.

Those are the important issues here.

Those at the very top must love people like you.

Sick Boy · Feb 21, 2016

Grendel said:
Does anyone think that European migration from countries with significantly lower wages than the uk has encouraged wage deflation?

To a certain extent but the majority of EU migrants are highly skilled and better qualified than those born and raised here and they are subjected to the same cost of living here, which, compared to a lot of EU countries, is very high.

Surely we should be delighted that we are attracting the top European talent rather than discouraging it? If there was some kind of quota they wouldn't come as the UK would unwelcoming and insular.

My girlfriend works in the NHS and most of her colleagues are highly qualified and are mostly from the EU.

Without these people the country would be in trouble and the NHS would certainly collapse. She has already said that she wants to leave if the UK does exit and who can blame her?! Why would her and her colleagues want to stay in a country that doesn't want them here?

Still, this all serves as a welcome distraction from those at the very top who are really to blame for problems both in this country and other European countries.

SIR ERNIE · Feb 21, 2016

Grendel said:
Correct. They'd just be another referendum until we got it right.

You may be right but more likely it would precipitate numerous such referendums across the EU. There are plenty of member nations whose citizens would jump at the chance of exiting.

Many now realise that the EU is a failed experiment.

Deleted member 5849 · Feb 21, 2016

Sick Boy said:
To a certain extent but the majority of EU migrants are highly skilled and better qualified than those born and raised here and they are subjected to the same cost of living here, which, compared to a lot of EU countries, is very high.

Surely we should be delighted that we are attracting the top European talent rather than discouraging it? If there was some kind of quota they wouldn't come as the UK would unwelcoming and insular.

My girlfriend works in the NHS and most of her colleagues are highly qualified and are mostly from the EU.

Without these people the country would be in trouble and the NHS would certainly collapse. She has already said that she wants to leave if the UK does exit and who can blame her?! Why would her and her colleagues want to stay in a country that doesn't want them here?

Still, this all serves as a welcome distraction from those at the very top who are really to blame for problems both in this country and other European countries.

I'm quite happy with such things tbh. In fact the very fact this threatens to get diverted onto the tub thumping rhetoric is exactly why I don't have a clue what the benefits and costs of being part of the Union actually *are*, as everyone spends so much time banging on about sodding immigration!

jimmyhillsfanclub · Feb 21, 2016

Mostly fair points SB, although I'm not sure your opening line still rings true.....

In the last few years, there certainly seems to have been a large increase of unskilled migrants too.....I wouldn't say they are "taking jobs" as they are taking jobs the British are either hesitant or financially impeded from taking, and they are generally exploited & working for well below minimum wage.....

its not "their" fault but they are contributing to a suppression wages & conditions within the UK.....

..Now excuse me as I'm off....I don't normally post on weekends.....I'm supposed to be booking a holiday to Anglesey but have been at the vino very much keith Floyd style while cooking the sunday tea and got sidetracked....

Tonylinc · Feb 21, 2016

I don't think that I am alone in wanting someone (preferably independent) to put the facts across. My own view is that we would be better out but am willing to be persuaded upon clear and ambiguous presentation of the facts.

Sick Boy · Feb 21, 2016

jimmyhillsfanclub said:
Mostly fair points SB, although I'm not sure your opening line still rings true.....

In the last few years, there certainly seems to have been a large increase of unskilled migrants too.....I wouldn't say they are "taking jobs" as they are taking jobs the British are either hesitant or financially impeded from taking, and they are generally exploited & working for well below minimum wage.....

its not "their" fault but they are contributing to a suppression wages & conditions within the UK.....

..Now excuse me as I'm off....I don't normally post on weekends.....I'm supposed to be booking a holiday to Anglesey but have been at the vino very much keith Floyd style while cooking the sunday tea and got sidetracked....

haha...I often end up the same Is it actually possible to have a holiday in Anglesey?

I agree that unskilled migrants are also coming over but there are certainly more highly-skilled migrants coming over as well, particularly from France, Italy and Spain.

The ridiculous thing is that the EU is very much geared up to the richer countries and those like Italy have been screwed over. They have seen the cost living more than double since the introduction of the Euro, while their wages have stayed the same. While I certainly support the EU, it has helped to cause this kind of inequality within itself and for who? It certainly hasn't been for the average European citizen.

I love Europe and feel very much European, but the it is far from perfect. If there was a vote in some of the southern European countries, I can assure you that they would certainly vote to pull out, which would probably lead to yet another rise in fascism.

Sick Boy · Feb 21, 2016

Tonylinc said:
I don't think that I am alone in wanting someone (preferably independent) to put the facts across. My own view is that we would be better out but am willing to be persuaded upon clear and ambiguous presentation of the facts.

We would be left incredibly isolated and with a very much diminished voice in both Europe and the World; we would inevitably be side lined by the Americans as well.

If we did vote to leave, most people would only notice when their cheap flights disappear and they are unable to afford a bottle of Prosecco.

SIR ERNIE · Feb 21, 2016

Tonylinc said:
I don't think that I am alone in wanting someone (preferably independent) to put the facts across. My own view is that we would be better out but am willing to be persuaded upon clear and ambiguous presentation of the facts.

Tony: I refer you to Michael Gove's excellent essay. Really superb stuff.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...ent-on-why-he-is-backing-brexit-a6886221.html

and in particular these sections:

I believe that the decisions which govern all our lives, the laws we must all obey and the taxes we must all pay should be decided by people we choose and who we can throw out if we want change. If power is to be used wisely, if we are to avoid corruption and complacency in high office, then the public must have the right to change laws and Governments at election time.
But our membership of the European Union prevents us being able to change huge swathes of law and stops us being able to choose who makes critical decisions which affect all our lives. Laws which govern citizens in this country are decided by politicians from other nations who we never elected and can’t throw out.

... the European Union, despite the undoubted idealism of its founders and the good intentions of so many leaders, has proved a failure on so many fronts. The euro has created economic misery for Europe’s poorest people. European Union regulation has entrenched mass unemployment. EU immigration policies have encouraged people traffickers and brought desperate refugee camps to our borders.

The EU is built to keep power and control with the elites rather than the people. Even though we are outside the euro we are still subject to an unelected EU commission which is generating new laws every day and an unaccountable European Court in Luxembourg which is extending its reach every week, increasingly using the Charter of Fundamental Rights which in many ways gives the EU more power and reach than ever before. This growing EU bureaucracy holds us back in every area.

Sick Boy · Feb 21, 2016

The majority of the out supporters are xenophobic and still retain some kind of identity with the Empire and Britain being 'special'.

It would actually be quite entertaining to watch the country implode on itself in the event of an out vote.

Liquid Gold · Feb 21, 2016

I'd personably be out of here like a shot in the event of an out vote, I know plenty of skilled EU migrants that would be gone and the NHS would fall apart. Then you're in a situation where your wages are likely to be lower, unemployment would rise with firms pulling out of the UK, you'd then see how unfair the changes in the benefit system are and god help you if you got ill and we're forced to pay for private health care.

As you say a lot of people in the out camp are closet xenophobes who don't understand the place of the UK in the world and make ridiculous statements about keeping the GREAT in Great Britain.

Just Friday night I met a Portuguese couple who both work in the NHS and cant understand why we would want to rip apart one of the best things about the country.

cloughie · Feb 21, 2016

Sick Boy said:
The majority of the out supporters are xenophobic and still retain some kind of identity with the Empire and Britain being 'special'.

It would actually be quite entertaining to watch the country implode on itself in the event of an out vote.

Oh well the uneducated will believe anything but those who run business's of all sizes realize that

We trade with China We trade with USA we trade with many countries outside the EU

If you have something to sell and someone wants to buy at it the right price even if that as from mongolia or France People will buy it

ccfctommy · Feb 21, 2016

Liquid Gold said:
As you say a lot of people in the out camp are closet xenophobes who don't understand the place of the UK in the world and make ridiculous statements about keeping the GREAT in Great Britain.

Sick Boy said:
The majority of the out supporters are xenophobic and still retain some kind of identity with the Empire and Britain being 'special'.

What total bollocks.

Sky Blue Pete · Feb 21, 2016

Gove isn't independent sir ernie

Philosoraptor · Feb 21, 2016

I believe the argument will come down to this.

Since we voted to join the Common Market we have not been asked ask as a people if we want closer socio-political ties with Europe. What Cameron is saying at the moment is that we already agree on most of the changes that previous Governments have agreed with our European neighbours.

This is obvious bullshit. The simple refusal to give us a referendum on this issue for at least a decade by all the main political parties, I believe, boils down to the unpopularity of this scheme with the British public, and not with reaching certain economic tests.

I wonder if we vote no how many referendums they can force on us like they have with other countries within Europe who have voted no.

I believe Europe has a lot to offer. I like the protections it gives you from obtrusive Governments, like Blair and Brown and their constant refusal to recognise the dangers of Utilitarianism in their deliberations. This is the purpose of the European Convention of Human Rights, to protect the individual rights against the social implications of Utility. To do away with this is to give any jackass who is in power the freehand to do what they like without the fear of recourse.

If we are going to leave Europe then what exactly are we going to replace ECHR with?

Will we have more freedoms or less freedoms?

rob9872 · Feb 22, 2016

Nobody gas explained what will happen to the Ryder Cup. Until they do I remain undecided.

AngryAnt · Feb 22, 2016

Now that all the 'top torries' want to leave (including Cameron, he's playing a bluff in my opinion since he's always been critical of Europe), surely that is the biggest reason to vote to stay in? To stick it to Gove and Boris.

If we do leave, the torries have already said they want to change the human rights act and start a "British rights" (i believe thats what they called it), do you really want them touching the human rights? And what about TTIP? The idea that American companies can (and would) sue the next government because they didn't give them a contract to drill for oil off Wales.

Sad fact is, the papers are owned by an Aussie who wants us to leave, enjoy the threats of "They'll take our bananas and stop giving us our tea bags!" plastered all over the newspapers for the next four months and sky news shouting even louder against the BBC.

I wonder how many nasty policies they'll sneak in under the radar too while the public is distracted for the next few months over this.

Its going to be hell.

RedSalmon · Feb 22, 2016

When we joind the EEC as it was then called, it was described as a 'European Club'. Since then it has almost always been desctibed as a 'European Project'. Very subtle change of description but nontheless very important.

When you join a club, you look at the set of rules that you are agreeing to abide by, if you like them you apply to join, and if they like you they let you. Its all above board and transparent, very black and white. This is what we joined.

A project is a very different thing. By its very nature it is changing and constantly redefineing its aims and objectives. The sands are constantly shifting. This what we are now a meber of.

As a youngster I can still remember the leaflets sent out by the Goverment of the day in 1975, three of them in all. One for 'yes', one for 'no', and one containing the Goverments recomendation, which was to join. Then, as now, the Goverment will try its hardest to encourage the population to vote 'yes'. There will be appeals to do the right things for future generations, to be part of a stronger better Europe, that it will bring prosperity and more job opportunities etc etc.

As you have probably guessed by now I am very much in the 'out' camp, and have been for very many years, but there are two points I would like to make.

Firstly if people are going to vote 'yes' to stay in, then do so for the right reasons and not because you have been frightened into it and you are doing so out of fear of the unknown. Thats how we neded up voting to go in in 1975.

Secondly, at long last, we will now have a vote on this issue and I dearly hope we as a nation are strong enough to vote to leave all of the European Project behind. But if we do vote to stay in then everyone, including myself, accepts the decission and gets on with things.

dutchman · Feb 22, 2016

RedSalmon said:
As a youngster I can still remember the leaflets sent out by the Goverment of the day in 1975, three of them in all. One for 'yes', one for 'no', and one containing the Goverments recomendation, which was to join.

You probably knew this but Britain was already a member of the then-EEC in 1975. The Labour government pretended to be anti-EEC but then switched sides after claiming a "spectacular renegotiation victory", a ploy which was repeated later by Margaret Thatcher and now David Cameron.

RedSalmon · Feb 22, 2016

dutchman said:
You probably knew this but Britain was already a member of the then-EEC in 1975. The Labour government pretended to be anti-EEC but then switched sides after claiming a "spectacular renegotiation victory", a ploy which was repeated later by Margaret Thatcher and now David Cameron.

Was not aware of that in all honesty. As a teenager at the time I remember all the propoganda which seemed to revolve around 'join up or all the other European nations will make it very difficult for the UK'.

Sick Boy · Feb 22, 2016

ccfctommy said:
What total bollocks.

The majority of the out campaigners are xenophobic. You are probably the sort of person who thinks Farage is just like the average man down the pub.

Sick Boy · Feb 22, 2016

RedSalmon said:
When we joind the EEC as it was then called, it was described as a 'European Club'. Since then it has almost always been desctibed as a 'European Project'. Very subtle change of description but nontheless very important.

When you join a club, you look at the set of rules that you are agreeing to abide by, if you like them you apply to join, and if they like you they let you. Its all above board and transparent, very black and white. This is what we joined.

A project is a very different thing. By its very nature it is changing and constantly redefineing its aims and objectives. The sands are constantly shifting. This what we are now a meber of.

As a youngster I can still remember the leaflets sent out by the Goverment of the day in 1975, three of them in all. One for 'yes', one for 'no', and one containing the Goverments recomendation, which was to join. Then, as now, the Goverment will try its hardest to encourage the population to vote 'yes'. There will be appeals to do the right things for future generations, to be part of a stronger better Europe, that it will bring prosperity and more job opportunities etc etc.

As you have probably guessed by now I am very much in the 'out' camp, and have been for very many years, but there are two points I would like to make.

Firstly if people are going to vote 'yes' to stay in, then do so for the right reasons and not because you have been frightened into it and you are doing so out of fear of the unknown. Thats how we neded up voting to go in in 1975.

Secondly, at long last, we will now have a vote on this issue and I dearly hope we as a nation are strong enough to vote to leave all of the European Project behind. But if we do vote to stay in then everyone, including myself, accepts the decission and gets on with things.

Good luck with that.

A lot of the more highly skilled EU workers will be off...why would they want to live in a xenophobic country that doesn't want them there?

SIR ERNIE · Feb 22, 2016

ccfctommy said:
What total bollocks.

Correct tommy.

But those incapable of rational argument will always resort to derogatory labelling such as 'Xenophobe' 'Racist' 'Homophobe'.

covmark · Feb 22, 2016

Sick Boy said:
The majority of the out campaigners are xenophobic. You are probably the sort of person who thinks Farage is just like the average man down the pub.

I love the way you pigeon hole people. You do the exact same thing you shout loudly against. The most amazing thing is you're oblivious to it.

Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk

Moff · Feb 22, 2016

Sick Boy said:
The majority of the out campaigners are xenophobic. You are probably the sort of person who thinks Farage is just like the average man down the pub.

Is that based on any facts or evidence? or your personal feelings on a small marginal party that has one MP, because there are a lot more people than them that may vote to leave Europe, from all sides of the political spectrum, and they are not all xenophobic.

Its like saying you are bigoted (which I know you are not) because you hold such a strong opinion.

Like I said I would be happy for you to show the facts that all these people are xenophobic, rather than just your own personal opinion.

ccfctommy · Feb 22, 2016

Sick Boy said:
The majority of the out campaigners are xenophobic. You are probably the sort of person who thinks Farage is just like the average man down the pub.

Im actually a Labour member. I am leaning towards the 'out' side but I am currently undecided. There is a Labour group that wants to leave. Also George Galloway does aswell. I believe Dave Nellist wants us to leave and they are as left wing as you can get.

RedSalmon · Feb 22, 2016

Sick Boy said:
Good luck with that.

A lot of the more highly skilled EU workers will be off...why would they want to live in a xenophobic country that doesn't want them there?

I do not understand why they would percieve an 'out' vote as xenophobic and therefore want to leave. For all you know they may very well share the same views and be glad to live in a country that is not goverened in the same way the rest of of Europe is.

chiefdave · Feb 22, 2016

Has it been announced what the actual question will be?

SIR ERNIE · Feb 22, 2016

RedSalmon said:
I do not understand why they would percieve an 'out' vote as xenophobic and therefore want to leave. QUOTE]

They wouldn't. It's nonsense.

rob9872 · Feb 22, 2016

Lazily labelling people Xenophobes and racists is no better than the racists themselves in being divisive, putting everyone on one side or the other and frightening them into your way of thinking - similar to what he current stay and leave campaigns are also doing.

Equally I don't like people knocking the monarchy as has been on this thread and suggesting that those who support them are also labelled. I resent that. I am proud of my country, proud of the monarchy and proud of the diversity that we share in different races, cultures, religions all trying to live side by side. It may not always work, but being cosmopolitan I see as a British trait like no other country around the world and should be celebrated and embraced alongside the monarchy and our sporting disasters and triumphs and other British things.

I used to quite like reading Sick Boy's opinion on here, but almost every discussion regarding anything remotely political and non-football related, he/she now seems to want to tell everyone how horrible the Tories are and that everyone who supports them is a good for nothing racist and I am beginning to find it irritating. Surely a better approach is to explain why you think someone's opinion that differs from your own is wrong rather than finger pointing (leave that to Grendel and Tony!) and name calling as it dilutes any valid point. Accept that sometime both sides of the house will be right and wrong in different proportions but not that you've aligned yourself one way and therefore everything they stand for you must support.

Sick Boy · Feb 22, 2016

SIR ERNIE said:
Correct tommy.

But those incapable of rational argument will always resort to derogatory labelling such as 'Xenophobe' 'Racist' 'Homophobe'.

Just like....

"What total bollocks."

Sick Boy · Feb 22, 2016

rob9872 said:
I used to quite like reading Sick Boy's opinion on here, but almost every discussion regarding anything remotely political and non-football related, he/she now seems to want to tell everyone how horrible the Tories are and that everyone who supports them is a good for nothing racist and I am beginning to find it irritating. Surely a better approach is to explain why you think someone's opinion that differs from your own is wrong rather than finger pointing (leave that to Grendel and Tony!) and name calling as it dilutes any valid point. Accept that sometime both sides of the house will be right and wrong in different proportions but not that you've aligned yourself one way and therefore everything they stand for you must support.

How often do I label Conservatives racist? If anything I label them as selfish and without souls

I apologise if I come across as over-bearing but EU membership is something I feel passionate about as a vote to leave will have direct and a severe impact upon my life and will cause me and my girlfriend to leave the country. She works as a midwife for the NHS, pays taxes and gives a hell of a lot to the country than many of those born here do; the ridiculous thing is that she will not get a vote on this despite paying taxes but someone who hasn't lived in the UK for 15 years does.

Obviously in the event of a vote to leave she would be allowed to stay but she has already said that under no circumstances would she want to stay in a country that seeks to put blame on working EU migrants.

I am lucky enough to have an Irish passport and we would look to move back to Italy in the event of a 'no vote', something which I would welcome Good luck trying to find housing for the pissed off, unemployed Brits being kicked out of EU countries as well.

Sick Boy · Feb 22, 2016

RedSalmon said:
I do not understand why they would percieve an 'out' vote as xenophobic and therefore want to leave. For all you know they may very well share the same views and be glad to live in a country that is not goverened in the same way the rest of of Europe is.

The majority of my friends are EU migrants as is my girlfriend and I can assure you that the majority of them would not want to stay.

rob9872 · Feb 22, 2016

Why doesn't she get a vote? I didn't realise that - is it to do with nationality as I thought after 5 years, you can go for dual nationality/passport as I remember a few year back the media clamouring for Almunia (Arsenal keeper) to play for England before we had anyone decent!

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