Nick
Administrator
So why is he being moronic? I don't know if he right or wrong that's why I'm asking
does moronic mean abusive?!
Nick, it's you who says "he does ask some good questions and some good points and does seem to know how things work". List and provide evidence to support this and I'll respond to each point.
Well the way it works is you reply to him to say why his points are false and factually incorrect.
Don't think so. kcic has kept the ccfc issue in the spotlight for a long time. Arsenal attracted incredible coverage for our plight. The epetition is going really well. Anyone can come on here, be anonymous and spout off with claims, assertions etc etc but the onus really is on those critical of the kcic campaign to explain factually (not just make assertions and claims) where it is going wrong and suggest a feasible, practical better way forward.
Utter Politeness? That's your opinion. Point is, he seems to be under the mis-understanding that I believed contacting Fifa had even a fair chance of working! I did say about 5-10% and that was being ultra generous!
Point is Lobbying is how things are done in the real world - not the rarified venue of a forum! But of course you have far more experience of dealing with politicians and decision makers don't you!
You have one letter of support from one MP. How influencial do you think Mr Collins is? Is he a front bench MP? How much sway does he have over the PM? I could call on 100 MPs today, if I so choose and get them to write a strongly worded letter - point is this alone is meaningless. WHY? Simple - these MPs alone have very little true power!
Here's a thought
WRITE TO EVERY SINGLE MP IN THE COUNTRY!!!!!!
WHY wasn't this the very first thing you did before you started the ePetition?
This is why I do not ever rely on ePetitions! It assumes you might get support from MPs, and because your ePetition is for a year, they do not have to act until 2015 if it even reaches the goal!
I assumed you want this done as a matter of urgency - so WHY go through a process that puts off the decision until 2015 at the earliest?
Did you ever consider WHYMr Collins responded? It was announced in national media and he saw an opportunity to gain media attention! Truly have you ever met an MP or understand how they work?
I met Andy Burnham personally last year. I spoke for about an hour an various topics and he was very open friendly and promised he would adopt my cause. Sure enough that was the last I ever heard from him! Point is they will do anything to get votes! I cannot be bothered to check, but I am guessing this fantastic letter was posted within a couple of days of national media coverage - am I correct?
Had you ever even heard of Mr Collins Before he wrote that letter? He achieved recognition with virtually no effort. If the campaign fails, he loses nothing, and will gain Kudos if it succeeds!
Really I shouldn't be, but I am continually amazed how naive some of the general public can be!
I apologise for bolding certain words, but sometimes I want to make key points stand out. And as there is so much you seem to not appreciate when dealing with politicians it is alarming. There is nothing wrong with this of course - indeed it can be utterly soul destroying when you meet some of these MPs. Sadly you have chosen to go down the political route. This means you have to deal with the reality of dealing with politicians.
Throwing Hissy fits on forums is fine, but you think sisu are sharks. Try dealing with front bench MPs !!!! Honestly sometimes I feel I need to shower after meeting some of those men and women!
I am not saying the cause is not valid, but the execution is naive. Maybe you will get the signatures, maybe you won't. But from your responses, a lot of you seem to still be under the impression just getting the signatures is a guarantee this is going to happen!
Oh and I don't buy the notion if you don't try you will never know. Why waste energy time and money on a method that only achieves 100k about once every 10,000 petitions!
Fell free to look into the reality of ePetitions. Look at the fact that they are only held once a fortnight. Look at how MPs are moaning not enough parliamentary time is being allowed for these.
If they worked, surely big organisations like Amnesty or the red cross or the legio would use them wouldn't they?
Point is ePetitions were designed to allow the public to vent and to give the impression the politicians would listen to them more. How many times have you heard sisu say they have listened to the fans? How many times have you heard politicians say pretty much the same (we have listened to the voters and heard their message)? Sound familiar?
It is easy to listen! Really the naivety of grown ups never ceases to amaze me!!
WRITE TO EVERY MP IN THE COUNTRY!! At the least you will know how much support you might get, and it will be in the back of the minds of every MP in the country!!
Of course if you have more experience of getting MPs to do your will please enlighten me!
To people who know nothing about how things work (like most) he is making points and you aren't explaining why he is wrong about what he is saying or his claims.
Face it the poster makes a lot of challenging and interesting points and the usual suspects don't like it.
He's like the uninvited guest at the wedding.
Please explain to me what questions aren't reasonable?
I asked if you expect 100% that this ePetition will get the desired result !!
I said you were getting around 1k/day before the transmission, and you achieved around the same after - so how did it boost ?
What I am observing is that people are getting sucked in and looking at the numbers. And with the misleading way the ePetition has been promoted (as if it is guaranteed the ePetition will result in an inquiry) has raised false optimism in the entire process of ePetitions.
Sure there are successes (west coast mainline & Hillsborough Inquiry), but they affect people in the real world!!! This is an obscure procedural change that doesn't directly affect real people.
Will people spend more if this inquiry happens? Will it help people overcome an injustice that cost the lives of loved ones? Will an inquiry stop ticket prices increasing?
It is shocking how naive those supporting this truly are. Take a look at the two that have just succeeded. Can you say asking for a second inquiry is more relevant to the public than preventing Female Genital Mutilation? They are basically asking to legalise marijuana.
If you were an MP, where do you think the votes are? Especially when you localised it to Coventry City - that was the fatal flaw. But the campaign is NOT dead, and it doesn't need to fail even if you don't get the signatures!
But what you DO need to do is get over the petulant abuse if someone doesn't think your ePetition is the way forward. That is just childish. I'm assuming you are adults so start acting like it!
Can anything I have said be impossible to change? Is everything you are doing set in stone? Must everyone be obediently in line and express no differing opinion? You are asking politicians to push your argument.
Surely it doesn't take much to realise that when dealing with politicians you have to dance with the devil! Your argument must be able to stand scrutiny. If your argument cannot stand scrutiny from someone who would like to see a change in football, how do you expect it to stand scrutiny from people who do not give a shit?
Grow up guys. ePetitions have a horrendous record, and are not seen as credible in the westminster bubble. You need to have a plan B. Be it managers, company directors or campaign organisers, relying on one plan to work is highly highly risky.
BTW I apologise for having to write so large comments, but when you deal with MPs so often you have to get used to expressing everything you do and your reasoning in great detail. I mean have you ever seen a white paper? Reports can be 1000's of pages and say nothing!
This is why lobby groups exist. This is why Lobby groups are paid so well. You need to get this into your mindset if you want any chance of success. Calling people names and trying to belittle people's arguments in the playground or in a forum or at a match is fine. But the "real" world of politics is a shark infested pool of backstabbing two-faced men and women who would jump on any opportunity to gain fame (Nikki Sinclaire anybody?) and will drop you in the brown stuff without thinking twice if they think it will get them ahead.
Sisu fit into this world quite nicely. If you swim with the sharks you need a shark cage and a harpoon. Right now you are in there with bermuda shorts, flippers, and a bucket and spade!
But hey if you have a different experience of MPs please share with the group!!!
Thats out of line weeman and you know it!!
What I am saying is a fundamentally obvious statement. As you say, it has been getting 1000 day all two weeks, it is now the 16th day. All yesterday did was boost it back up to the rate it was earlier in the week! Or do you not expect a radio with 100,000's of listeners to boost your numbers significantly?
If the numbers are roughly in line with what you were getting how is it a boost?
Had you not been mentioned on national radio, you would have received less then 400 yesterday. My point is considering it has only been two weeks, do you in your heart of hearts expect the same boosts on radio on a weekly occassion?
What I am trying to get you guys to think, is do not just assume the numbers via the petition is the be all and end all. AS with the hillsborough campaign, I put it to you, that its success had nothing to do with getting 100,000 signatures, and everything to do with what was going on in the real world!
My point, is that every successful campaign I have worked on has never relied on the result of one particular aspect. If you want this to succeed, don't just rely on getting numbers and hoping that a back bencher will endorse it etc etc. You need to back it up with a media campaign. For that you need money pure and simple.
ePetitions have been read out, but they are read when parliament is almost empty, by minor MPs with virtually nothing invested in their success. If you cannot accept any form of criticism then quite frankly you shouldn't be involved in any form of campaign! WM, you seem to think I was invested in the whole FIFA idea, and you once again got aggressive and defensive, and tried to tear down anything that doesn't just blindly go along with your train of thought!
You do realise that 99.999% of the country does not have as much emotional investment in this cause as you don't you? Quite frankly, there are only about 10 or so people in the world (the people responding to this thread) that are as invested as you guys! But that isn't a bad thing! Others will support it, just not to the extent you are! But you cannot go around jumping down the throats of anyone who might not agree with your point of view!
Remember the only reason I joined this was to show you that just relying on an ePetition is not the way forward! I mean what is it you want - the signatures or the inquiry? Inquiries can be pressed for without a petition you do know this right? And ePetitions do not mean it is guaranteed to get the inquiry -again you do know this right?
You as a cause have decided to go down the parliamentary route - that's fine that's the decision you have made?
So answer me this - WHY aren't you badgering MP's directly? Why waste time money and resources on a petition that could just so easily be ignored?
If you are so intent on protest marches - why aren't you protesting outside parliament? Why aren't you protesting outside the offices of the political parties? Surely you have been protesting to the wrong people!
As you are going, at some point you are going to have to invest in advertising pure and simple. You may not like it, but lifes a bitch. At that point you need to decide if its worth spending the money on a petition that mayor may not get read in parliament, and may or may not be backed in a heartfelt way, and considering there is already such an inquiry, you have to hope and pray that a politician can be bothered to raise such a fantastic argument that they agree there is no reason not to hold an inquiry!
Or do you expect an inquiry based solely on the merits of the wording of a petition? If you do then you really do have a naive outlook on life!
Just try and step back and take a look at your campaign from someone who isn't as invested in it as you. Could you justify a multi million pound inquiry based solely on the words in the petition. I have spoken to many lobbyist friends of mine. Not one said they would take this based on the wording, as it clearly states an inquiry has already been held. You need a really strong argument to justify another inquiry.
Unless of course you have more experience than me of how the wheels of power actually work, rather than how they should work! Most of policy is made outside of parliament. Deals behind closed doors. You need several MPs onboard to make this happen. Probably about 50-60 MPs backing this cause might give you the legitimacy to get an inquiry. Definitely a minimum of 2 senior politicians (ideally front benchers) need to be on board.
Oh and when I say onboard, I don't just mean will sign the petition. I mean actually backing the campaign! Get those MPs on your side and you will get your inquiry. Rely on an ePetition, bad mouth any criticism, acting like a spoilt child, and good luck wasting time money and effort on an ePetition.
Don't think so. kcic has kept the ccfc issue in the spotlight for a long time. Arsenal attracted incredible coverage for our plight. The epetition is going really well. Anyone can come on here, be anonymous and spout off with claims, assertions etc etc but the onus really is on those critical of the kcic campaign to explain factually (not just make assertions and claims) where it is going wrong and suggest a feasible, practical better way forward.
To be fair he does ask some good questions and some good points and does seem to know how things work.
Yet again defensive WM ! Yet again you are showing you are too close to this!
I re-iterate I wouldn't have gone to parlaiment. I said IF I was forced to run the campaign in this way, that was how I have run things in the past!
I know exactly what you are doing, I see it on a daily basis. Those who are ultra close to this (the 10 or so on this forum) will not accept ANY criticism! WIll these people who have supported this defend it with the venom you are? Sure they will support, but they support the end result!
You seem to believe the ePetition is the end result!
How do you not get that you have to get MPs on board? MPs will rip you to shreds! Just ask Michael!!
You swim with sharks you need a shark cage. If you get the 100k you then meet politicians - or are you assuming it just gets an inquiry because it gets 100k
You are far too close to this my friend (I hope you allow me to call you that). I have said I want changes in how football is governed - where have I said otherwise???
Have you ever gone through the ePetition process before? I have. Some of my old fleet air arm buddies work with air rescue, so air ambulance was one of my babies I asked to help with (my first ePetition dealings).
The scheme had national recognition, so had a head start. Because it was high profile MPs were sniffing around the campaign). As I said after a couple of meetings, I left it to the organisers - they deserve the credit I am just a hanger on! But I really felt dirty afterwards. You could see in their eye their were weighing up if they thought votes were in this. As I said I felt dirty.
That is why I am happy to sit in the background. I try my best to help the campaigns I help with. Many fail. Some succeed. Since air ambulance I don't deal with ePetitions.
I can only go on personal experience. Will the ePetition get 100k (possibly) Is this the end game - NO?
You say this is not your only strategy, fine - but why are you waiting? Surely it is basic common sense that you make the most of what goodwill you are receiving isn't it?
I could be wrong, but I would guess if you ask an advertiser if they sit back and don't capitalise on any success they would laugh you out of the office!
As the campaign goes on, people will forget the radio plugs, the paper ads. DO you think you can maintain this level of free advertising solely on it's own merits?
Word of mouth will get you so far, but to not take advantage of any success is insane!
As I said I never stop being surprised of the level of naivety of some people!
Take advantage of any success- surely this is obvious isn't it?
Some ePetitions got their numbers in 5 days!
What excuse is their to not take advantage of success?
It's so depressing that you just don't wan to see the truth!
But calls me childish, spolit and aggressive? C'mon Nick...you've seen enough of my posts to know I'm anything but?!
I agree, some of his points are good, some not so. If he's that good at putting them down in print, why won't he actually do something and help pull in the same direction as many others? Like I said above, I'd rather be naive and try, than knowledgable and sit back and do nothing.
Each to their own I suppose....
WM
Yet again defensive WM ! Yet again you are showing you are too close to this!
I re-iterate I wouldn't have gone to parlaiment. I said IF I was forced to run the campaign in this way, that was how I have run things in the past!
I know exactly what you are doing, I see it on a daily basis. Those who are ultra close to this (the 10 or so on this forum) will not accept ANY criticism! WIll these people who have supported this defend it with the venom you are? Sure they will support, but they support the end result!
You seem to believe the ePetition is the end result!
How do you not get that you have to get MPs on board? MPs will rip you to shreds! Just ask Michael!!
You swim with sharks you need a shark cage. If you get the 100k you then meet politicians - or are you assuming it just gets an inquiry because it gets 100k
You are far too close to this my friend (I hope you allow me to call you that). I have said I want changes in how football is governed - where have I said otherwise???
Have you ever gone through the ePetition process before? I have. Some of my old fleet air arm buddies work with air rescue, so air ambulance was one of my babies I asked to help with (my first ePetition dealings).
The scheme had national recognition, so had a head start. Because it was high profile MPs were sniffing around the campaign). As I said after a couple of meetings, I left it to the organisers - they deserve the credit I am just a hanger on! But I really felt dirty afterwards. You could see in their eye their were weighing up if they thought votes were in this. As I said I felt dirty.
That is why I am happy to sit in the background. I try my best to help the campaigns I help with. Many fail. Some succeed. Since air ambulance I don't deal with ePetitions.
I can only go on personal experience. Will the ePetition get 100k (possibly) Is this the end game - NO?
You say this is not your only strategy, fine - but why are you waiting? Surely it is basic common sense that you make the most of what goodwill you are receiving isn't it?
I could be wrong, but I would guess if you ask an advertiser if they sit back and don't capitalise on any success they would laugh you out of the office!
As the campaign goes on, people will forget the radio plugs, the paper ads. DO you think you can maintain this level of free advertising solely on it's own merits?
Word of mouth will get you so far, but to not take advantage of any success is insane!
As I said I never stop being surprised of the level of naivety of some people!
Take advantage of any success- surely this is obvious isn't it?
Some ePetitions got their numbers in 5 days!
What excuse is their to not take advantage of success?
It's so depressing that you just don't wan to see the truth!
Having used my dipping in and out time to look at the ongoing discussion, can I ask svbet whether the help on offer through his suggestions will become something more tangible? I am personaly not that close to the petition but have helped where I can with raising awareness to it, and by definition the situation with football governance. There is of course a risk as to whether it will raise the required level of signatures, and of course if it would ultimately be heard in Parliament, but that shouldn't be enough of a barrier to stop people from trying.
I don't think we need to run around thanking each other all the time for any efforts that are put in, but there is a concern that some of the criticism, however constructive in intention, is offered in a negative fashion. There seem to be plenty on this forum who have knowledge and expertise in a diverse range of areas. We don't have to always agree, but at least push things forward in a positive light.
I am not "touchy" about this at all, just a bit bemused by the poster, and although not questioning his motives, just think the time put in could be more constructive. No more tit for tat text please, lets move on.
They are related to the petition though?
Your attitude to this campaign is childish - I could say that of my first campaign! Everyone is protective of their baby. This is not a bad thing, but it becomes a bad thing if you carry that attitude forward!
I called you naive - everyone is naive at some point - I am quite happy to say you aren't naive if you have extensive experience of dealing with MPs - is this the case WM?
You seriously don't see how you are being aggressive?
You are asking for praise - why? Do you need to feel everyone to say well done?
Surely you should be doing this for the sake of football, not for personal gratification aren't you? Surely it is childish to demand praise for what you are doing isn't it? I;m not here to curry favour from fellow posters, I'm here to try and help move the campaign forward.
Have you a plan B? Are you going to contact MPs? If so what is stopping you do it today?
My first post was to ask why I should sign. Even now not one of the defenders of this campaign has been able to give me a valid rational evidenced based reason to sign other than intimidation pandering, or just plain dissmissiveness.
If you cannot convince me, how on earth do you expect to convince the majority of parliament which is needed to bring in a change in the law!
Naivety can be overcome, but from the response, those that are running with this just want affirmation praise and well dones!
I'm sorry, but mt children ask for that. I give it because they are children and have done the best they can.
So is this the best you can do? If you are sitting back waiting to see what happens, then you yourselves are as you say sitting on your backside doing nothing!
Contacting other clubs - fine. Where do you go when all have been contacted? Are you contacting these forums every day?
Are these forums discussing this issue as fervently as this one? I suspect not unless you go on day after day!
Why are you waiting until that is complete before you do the next thing? Every campaign I have worked on has gone through more than one plan of action. This is just a given! If I said to the people I work with just rely on this before we move on to the next - well let's just say I wouldn't be working with them much longer!
You can waste your time shooting down my arguments, and it may make you feel good. But surely your time would be better spent writing to MPs, trying to get your voice heard.
Sitting back on success is very naive. And I am sorry if that offends, If you want an apology fine, I apologise. But it does not chang the fact you are wasting your time and efforts shooting down one person - Personally I would take my opinions with as big a pinch of salt, ignore what you think is nonsense and act on anything you hadn't thought of. In my mind that would be the mature response.
To be clear I am not criticising you so much WM, but the general tone of responses towards my comments. Michael has just had a phone call from a newspaper. That is the way forward!
Not just relying on the signatures, that is naive in the extreme. The petition is the key to others. Now you have an open door you move in. Sitting back and relying on the numbers stacking up is insane!
Contact the papers, MPs radio stations. Start making noise! If you are just going to sit back when you have momentum is a scandal! I work with people who are open to new ideas. If you are just going to shoot down any possible criticism, then what is the point!
I have said almost from my first post, you need to go beyond just the petition. I hope the phone call leads to other things. You need MPs on board. Shutting up shop isn't the answer..
I am pleased to see Michael has taken at least some of my stuff on board. Hopefully the rest will take what I say on face value. My "agenda" is to get sisu out. Even if the rules of governance are changed, there is still no guarantee sisu will be gone will there!
This campaign needs to be fought on several fronts. If you cannot see that then fine. Seems Michael has,and that can only be positive!
But asking for praise because of what you have done so far - come on seriously?
Do you praise a fireman half way through fighting a fire, or afterwards? Get then job done THEN you well get a well deserved. Until that be a grown up, you probably don't care what I think so why does my praise matter?
Getting sisu out is the goal, not some obscure ePetition is my goal, what is yours?
Bemused by the length and convoluted nature of the posts. Why not be more succinct and positive, considering the apparent passion for the subject. More bemusement to follow one suspects!
I think it would be better to create a separate thread and move all his posts there, where they can be analysed.
Unfortunately the frequency & length of his posts on this thread are not terribly productive to our efforts. (32 posts, in this thread alone)
Are any mods prepared to do that?
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