Trump is my favourite comedian of the year already (16 Viewers)

[Deleted member 5849]

Starmer is as ridiculous as Biden agreed, neither offer a crumb of hope for anybody

Back in the day, I resigned my membership of the Labour Party under Blair, because he got rid of Clause 4. Blair was, to me, a poor excuse for a socialist.

I still think that, to an extent, but the world post-coalition has shown me that sometimes, it's about compromise. Would I, in an ideal world, have a Blair-type government? Nope, absolutely not, but if the alternative is the shitshow we've had since...? Well, Blair (and Brown) showed you could run a country with at least an acknowledgement of a social conscience.

It's the same in the US. Biden has at least pulled back on the Trump desecration of society, the division. Sometimes, you need to start from a base and build, in the hope that then politics can swing towards my ideal.

 

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[clint van damme]

The left on both sides of the pond being equally ridiculous.

I don't think it's ridiculous to think that the most vulnerable in society shouldn't bear the brunt of the post covid economic pay back as they bore the brunt of austerity following the 2008 crash.
It is ridiculous to not expect a Labour leader to nail his colours to that mast whether the election is next week or 3 years away

 

[Deleted member 5849]

I don't think it's ridiculous to think that the most vulnerable in society shouldn't bear the brunt of the post covid economic pay back as they bore the brunt of austerity following the 2008 crash.
It is ridiculous to not expect a Labour leader to nail his colours to that mast whether the election is next week or 3 years away

If once this is over he doesn't campaign for a fairer, more just society, I'll join you with the pitchforks.

I happen to agree that now would be tactically unwise to go for it, yet. Better to let the initial euphoria settle, then go for the open goals.

 

[clint van damme]

If once this is over he doesn't campaign for a fairer, more just society, I'll join you with the pitchforks.

I happen to agree that now would be tactically unwise to go for it, yet. Better to let the initial euphoria settle, then go for the open goals.

The 5hing is people can go on about 'the left' but it isn't just so called Corbynistas that are pissed off with him, he's getting a lot of shit from the centre as well.

Then again he did say he'd unite the party.

 

[Liquid Gold]

He could at least not be stoking a civil war in the party. he was supposed to be the unity candidate.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

The 5hing is people can go on about 'the left' but it isn't just so called Corbynistas that are pissed off with him, he's getting a lot of shit from the centre as well.

Then again he did say he'd unite the party.

I'll repeat, I was very much against certain members of the party rebelling against Corbyn, he deserved a shot before the grumbling and, after an impressive 2017 campaign, deserved to stay. It's interesting that Starmer was one who was, at least, willing to come back into the fold and support from within, rather than sniping against his party from the back benches.

The same applies now. There's a plan, we're told, so let's see. It's not like its so Duncan Smith-like that there's no alternative but to wipe his leadership from a collective memory.

 

[shmmeee]

The 5hing is people can go on about 'the left' but it isn't just so called Corbynistas that are pissed off with him, he's getting a lot of shit from the centre as well.

Then again he did say he'd unite the party.

You’ve got people saying Labour is an unsafe place for black people because someone was mean about Dianne Abbott and others arguing for austerity in the middle of a recession like some kind of Owen Jones reboot of George Osbourne.

Its not based in reality.

Just the other day Starmer announced mass nationalisation and insourcing. Nothing from the left. Dodds has proposed spending rules that allow us to open the floodgates, nothing.

It’s all the same childish nonsense as the yanks are showing here.

This idea that any Labour politician isn’t really dedicated to fixing this nequalties and injustice in society is pushing it, the idea a guy who has dedicated himself to human rights and up until 2015 would’ve been viewed as the left wing candidate like Miliband and Burnham were is just lunacy.

 

[David O'Day]

You’ve got people saying Labour is an unsafe place for black people because someone was mean about Dianne Abbott and others arguing for austerity in the middle of a recession like some kind of Owen Jones reboot of George Osbourne.

Its not based in reality.

Just the other day Starmer announced mass nationalisation and insourcing. Nothing from the left. Dodds has proposed spending rules that allow us to open the floodgates, nothing.

It’s all the same childish nonsense as the yanks are showing here.

This idea that any Labour politician isn’t really dedicated to fixing this nequalties and injustice in society is pushing it, the idea a guy who has dedicated himself to human rights and up until 2015 would’ve been viewed as the left wing candidate like Miliband and Burnham were is just lunacy.

The "left" are up in arms about Trident again forgetting it was a policy in both 2017 and 2019

 

[clint van damme]

You’ve got people saying Labour is an unsafe place for black people because someone was mean about Dianne Abbott and others arguing for austerity in the middle of a recession like some kind of Owen Jones reboot of George Osbourne.

Its not based in reality.

Just the other day Starmer announced mass nationalisation and insourcing. Nothing from the left. Dodds has proposed spending rules that allow us to open the floodgates, nothing.

It’s all the same childish nonsense as the yanks are showing here.

This idea that any Labour politician isn’t really dedicated to fixing this nequalties and injustice in society is pushing it, the idea a guy who has dedicated himself to human rights and up until 2015 would’ve been viewed as the left wing candidate like Miliband and Burnham were is just lunacy.

You really aren't reading the room if you think it's just the 'left' who are pissed off with him.
Even centrist pin.up boy O'Brien said he doesn't know what Starmer stands for.

 

[shmmeee]

The "left" are up in arms about Trident again forgetting it was a policy in both 2017 and 2019

Its been from day one. The right didn’t handle Corbyn well, but this has been on another level. And just brazenly “you’re not Corbyn, you can fuck off” as you say identical policies are not proof of a right wing coup, standard Keynesian economics that the left have been shouting for for years is now more proof he’s really right wing. It’s QAnon level.

 

[shmmeee]

You really aren't reading the room if you think it's just the 'left' who are pissed off with him.
Even centrist pin.up boy O'Brien said he doesn't know what Starmer stands for.

Ive got problems with Starmer, you’re conflating two issues though. Some people have questions, the left of the party has been acting like a child from day one and is frankly coming out with just ludicrous stuff.

And again. With the people who actually matter: voters. He’s doing fine.

 

[clint van damme]

Ive got problems with Starmer, you’re conflating two issues though. Some people have questions, the left of the party has been acting like a child from day one and is frankly coming out with just ludicrous stuff.

And it's been used as excuse to gloss over what has been a totally uninspiring tenure so far.

 

[David O'Day]

Its been from day one. The right didn’t handle Corbyn well, but this has been on another level. And just brazenly “you’re not Corbyn, you can fuck off” as you say identical policies are not proof of a right wing coup, standard Keynesian economics that the left have been shouting for for years is now more proof he’s really right wing. It’s QAnon level.

The "Keith" patter is worse than some of the lame insults the Qanon weirdos come up with

 

[Deleted member 5849]

And it's been used as excuse to gloss over what has been a totally uninspiring tenure so far.

I know it's easy to say, a national crisis (however badly handled) doesn't make it easy to assert yourself. On the basic level you can't get out and about, however badly the government handles things, people tend to rally behind them in the immediate, so going against them won't play well, and it's provided a glorious excuse for the Brexit shit-show.

So although not a free pass, the bigger test will be when this all returns to 'normality', can he make the government pay for its errors, and how it responds afterwards?

 

[David O'Day]

And it's been used as excuse to gloss over what has been a totally uninspiring tenure so far.

A tenture completely within a global pandemic.

Wait until this is over and then we can start to judge.

 

[David O'Day]

I know it's easy to say, a national crisis (however badly handled) doesn't make it easy to assert yourself. On the basic level you can't get out and about, however badly the government handles things, people tend to rally behind them in the immediate, so going against them won't play well, and it's provided a glorious excuse for the Brexit shit-show.

So although not a free pass, the bigger test will be when this all returns to 'normality', can he make the government pay for its errors, and how it responds afterwards?

You get nothing for attacking the government in a crisis that is not of their making (however badly they have handled it)

 

[clint van damme]

A tenture completely within a global pandemic.

Wait until this is over and then we can start to judge.

I get that on some of it but some things, like last week's court ruling, I just think you've got to go for it.
I.thought his response was awful.
Especially when Hancocks response was just one lie after another.

 

[David O'Day]

I get that on some of it but some things, like last week's court ruling, I just think you've got to go for it.
I.thought his response was awful.
Especially when Hancocks response was just one lie after another.

Calling for a minister to go in a crisis isn't a good look, especially not the health minster over a trivial thing no one cares about

The time will be once the inquiry is under way.

 

[clint van damme]

Calling for a minister to go in a crisis isn't a good look, especially not the health minster over a trivial thing no one cares about

The time will be once the inquiry is under way.

He said he wouldn't forget about Jenricks antics. We came out of lockdown, returned to something slightly resembling normality and he never said another word about it while Jenricks mates sailed off into the sunset with 40 million of tax payers money in their arsepocket.

I've not got much hope we're going to see him holding people to account post covid. I hope he proves me wrong.

 

[shmmeee]

He said he wouldn't forget about Jenricks antics. We came out of lockdown, returned to something slightly resembling normality and he never said another word about it while Jenricks mates sailed off into the sunset with 40 million of tax payers money in their arsepocket.

I've not got much hope we're going to see him holding people to account post covid. I hope he proves me wrong.

Its an entirely different game to Corbyn. It’s not about getting the killer line onto social media and firing up the base.

It’s about changing perceptions built up that were shouty, always calling for resignations, constantly opposing for no reason, think Tories (and by proxy their voters) are evil.

That takes ages during the best of times and during a pandemic is virtually impossible. And yet he’s still managed to record good personal ratings ahead of his party, and pulled the polling back to basically margin of error territory.

This was always going to hurt as a lefty. Corbyn went full bore and polarised the electorate and found out that there’s not enough voters in the places we need them. Starmers job is now decontamination and reassurance and to do that he has to look more right wing, all winning PMs are more moderate than their party, and opposition leaders trying to change the view that they’re ranting ideologies doubly so.

Corbyn’s strategy got five years, a referendum, and two GEs. The least you can give Starmers strategy is one GE.

And that’s all it is: a strategy. The Labour Party isn’t suddenly a hive of Tories. Right wing people join right wing parties. Labour governments are better than Tory ones always.

 

[clint van damme]

Its an entirely different game to Corbyn. It’s not about getting the killer line onto social media and firing up the base.

It’s about changing perceptions built up that were shouty, always calling for resignations, constantly opposing for no reason, think Tories (and by proxy their voters) are evil.

That takes ages during the best of times and during a pandemic is virtually impossible. And yet he’s still managed to record good personal ratings ahead of his party, and pulled the polling back to basically margin of error territory.

This was always going to hurt as a lefty. Corbyn went full bore and polarised the electorate and found out that there’s not enough voters in the places we need them. Starmers job is now decontamination and reassurance and to do that he has to look more right wing, all winning PMs are more moderate than their party, and opposition leaders trying to change the view that they’re ranting ideologies doubly so.

Corbyn’s strategy got five years, a referendum, and two GEs. The least you can give Starmers strategy is one GE.

And that’s all it is: a strategy. The Labour Party isn’t suddenly a hive of Tories. Right wing people join right wing parties. Labour governments are better than Tory ones always.

My worry with all that, and you've raised some good points, is he devotes too much time and energy to not being Corbyn when I think most people have established that he's not.

 

[Evo1883]

Well this got people talking

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

You really aren't reading the room if you think it's just the 'left' who are pissed off with him.
Even centrist pin.up boy O'Brien said he doesn't know what Starmer stands for.

I think it's the Miliband situation - advisors making him look indecisive. you don't spend that long as a QC without knowing how to fight your corner.

Miliband as leader looked like a rabbit in the headlights. Since going back to being an ordinary MP on the whole he's been pretty impressive. Without that weight on his shoulders he's just far more relaxed and free to express himself.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

He's not a lobbyist. He's a media personality. And not especially fond of Joe Biden (although he preferred him to Donald Trump in November, no doubt)

Yeah meant more media and I agree about being more Biden than tromp

 

[SBAndy]

He said he wouldn't forget about Jenricks antics. We came out of lockdown, returned to something slightly resembling normality and he never said another word about it while Jenricks mates sailed off into the sunset with 40 million of tax payers money in their arsepocket.

I've not got much hope we're going to see him holding people to account post covid. I hope he proves me wrong.

Again, just thinking strategically, but I wonder if this, along with the PPE contracts, will form part of a concerted campaign in a couple of years about how the country/the taxpayer has been swindled by the Tories.

 

[SG21]

We don't have the media to do that sadly. They'll twist it round to make the tories seem like the good guys

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Again, just thinking strategically, but I wonder if this, along with the PPE contracts, will form part of a concerted campaign in a couple of years about how the country/the taxpayer has been swindled by the Tories.

It's what I'm hoping for too, but Starmer seems to be so anti-confrontation at all levels I'm starting to lose faith in that. Weirdly for a prosecution lawyer he's no attack dog.

Plus as has been said somehow it'll be spun into being labour's problem, probably along the lines of "this was a few years ago - why don't labour concentrate on something more progressive?" or "if they've got to go back two years to find stuff to complain about things can't be going that badly". Failing that they'll bring some distraction to take attention away from it, even if it includes a minor thing, prob with Hancock as the fall guy unless he's already had to be shoved under a bus by then. But still plenty of other potential scapegoats - Raab, Williamson, Jenrick, Grayling, even Boris himself if need be.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Our union members have just voted to accept a pay offer 80% yes vote. You should hear some of the reps with their principles but ears shut. I’m all for leading as representatives but if you can be so far removed from the will of your membership I think you need to change union or be a little quieter

 

[shmmeee]

It's what I'm hoping for too, but Starmer seems to be so anti-confrontation at all levels I'm starting to lose faith in that. Weirdly for a prosecution lawyer he's no attack dog.

Plus as has been said somehow it'll be spun into being labour's problem, probably along the lines of "this was a few years ago - why don't labour concentrate on something more progressive?" or "if they've got to go back two years to find stuff to complain about things can't be going that badly". Failing that they'll bring some distraction to take attention away from it, even if it includes a minor thing, prob with Hancock as the fall guy unless he's already had to be shoved under a bus by then. But still plenty of other potential scapegoats - Raab, Williamson, Jenrick, Grayling, even Boris himself if need be.

The whole problem is the view of Labour having to attack IMO. Makes us look weak and whiny. I think a big difference between 17 and 19 (one of many) was we spent 17 telling everyone what we’d do and 19 telling everyone how terrible what the Tories will do is.

I know I’ve said it over and over, but it boils my blood that I don’t even know what Labour health policy was last GE. I know the Tories because we kept going on about how the figures were false and how a dodgy dossier said they’d sell the NHS and whatever else. Absolutely criminal that the electorate didn’t know what we offered on our biggest policy strength with the public.

 

[clint van damme]

The whole problem is the view of Labour having to attack IMO. Makes us look weak and whiny.

So why of all the battles he could have picked, has he decided to go up against the government on plans to raise Corporation tax?

Absolutely bizarre.

 

[shmmeee]

So why of all the battles he could have picked, has he decided to go up against the government on plans to raise Corporation tax?

Absolutely bizarre.

He’s not. He’s against all austerity during a recession. As most Labour politicians are and until about five minutes ago and you saw a stick to beat Starmer with so were you.

 

[clint van damme]

He’s not. He’s against all austerity during a recession. As most Labour politicians are and until about five minutes ago and you saw a stick to beat Starmer with so were you.

I'm not against raising corporation tax. Strange statement.
If he thinks that's going to play well then he's got it badly wrong.

You think he's right to keep low profile while the government are paying people furlough and vaccinating pensioners but not when they're trying to get the big boys to pay for it?

 

[David O'Day]

I'm not against raising corporation tax. Strange statement.
If he thinks that's going to play well then he's got it badly wrong.

You think he's right to keep low profile while the government are paying people furlough and vaccinating pensioners but not when they're trying to get the big boys to pay for it?

It doesn't just hurt the "big boys" and could endanger more jobs.

It's madness to try and raise any taxes in a recession as you are just going to reduce demand in the middle of a demand shock.

 

[clint van damme]

It doesn't just hurt the "big boys" and could endanger more jobs.

It's madness to try and raise any taxes in a recession as you are just going to reduce demand in the middle of a demand shock.

It's corporation tax though, it's only on profit.
It also goes against the first of his pledges so that's another one he's reneging on.
I'm really struggling to see a coherent strategy here.
Is it let the government get on with it in a pandemic or is it oppose them?

If it's oppose them why is it don't say too much when they've been found guilty in court but speak out against them implementing something you pledged to do a year ago?

 

[David O'Day]

It's corporation tax though, it's only on profit.
It also goes against the first of his pledges so that's another one he's reneging on.
I'm really struggling to see a coherent strategy here.
Is it let the government get on with it in a pandemic or is it oppose them?

If it's oppose them why is it don't say too much when they've been found guilty in court but speak out against them implementing something you pledged to do a year ago?

Yes but businesses when their profits drop reduce costs and the first cost they reduce is wage bills.

It's text book paradox of thrift

There will be a time to look at CT but as has been stated already it's not wise to raise any tax in a recession dur to the demand reduction it will create.