USSR invades Ukraine. (5 Viewers)

[SBT]

Precisely and the subsequent pushing of NATO and even the absurd suggestion that they could be considered for EU membership has meant the invasion risk was intensified

Hope you’re hydrating properly this morning Grendel…..O’Day and ADM aren’t even up yet, still fumbling around for the Berocca

 

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[Brighton Sky Blue]

Sounds like victim blaming to me

Because it is, in his usual contrary style. Russia was provoked into invading a country from 3 sides…

 

[skybluetony176]

Precisely and the subsequent pushing of NATO and even the absurd suggestion that they could be considered for EU membership has meant the invasion risk was intensified

I thought you believed in sovereignty. Because it suspiciously sounds like you’re suggesting that Ukrainian doesn’t deserve it’s own sovereignty to choose it’s own destination and should instead dance to the tune that Russia plays otherwise it’s Ukrainians fault if Russia invades it. Strange stance from a Brexit supporter.

 

[David O'Day]

Hope you’re hydrating properly this morning Grendel…..O’Day and ADM aren’t even up yet, still fumbling around for the Berocca

i'm awake fella, just enjoying grenners burying himself

 

[Grendel]

i'm awake fella, just enjoying grenners burying himself

Resorting to sharing PMs between you and Dongles incarnation "Gregbant" is a sign of a man already buried

 

[David O'Day]

Resorting to sharing PMs between you and Dongles incarnation "Gregbant" is a sign of a man already buried

how is the head? you had a right stinker last night

how much do you remember?

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

I thought you believed in sovereignty. Because it suspiciously sounds like you’re suggesting that Ukrainian doesn’t deserve it’s own sovereignty to choose it’s own destination and should instead dance to the tune that Russia plays otherwise it’s Ukrainians fault if Russia invades it. Strange stance from a Brexit supporter.

I guess on this basis Finland is also provoking a Russian invasion.

 

[Grendel]

how is the head? you had a right stinker last night

how much do you remember?

It is strange David how everyone who backs you into a corner is a piss stained drunk living on a park bench.

 

[Grendel]

I guess on this basis Finland is also provoking a Russian invasion.

Finland as far as I am aware is recognised as a separate Country and is not considered in any shape or form a Russian state

 

[David O'Day]

It is strange David how everyone who backs you into a corner is a piss stained drunk living on a park bench.

no one has mentioned a park bench mate, the "wife" kicked you out?

do you need me to pick you up some paracetamol and lucozade?

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Finland as far as I am aware is recognised as a separate Country and is not considered in any shape or form a Russian state

So you consider Ukraine a Russian state?

 

[Grendel]

So you consider Ukraine a Russian state?

No but its what Russia thinks and the provocation is clearly the suggestion of further NATO movement to the Russian border in addition to the bonkers comment by Von De Lyon or whatever she is called that EU membership would be considered. Neither of these suggestions were ever going to be tolerated by the Kremlin

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

No but its what Russia thinks and the provocation is clearly the suggestion of further NATO movement to the Russian border in addition to the bonkers comment by Von De Lyon or whatever she is called that EU membership would be considered. Neither of these suggestions were ever going to be tolerated by the Kremlin

Blaming the victim. You make it sound like Russia had no choice but to invade-and ignore that they already seized territory in 2014.

 

[shmmeee]

Precisely and the subsequent pushing of NATO and even the absurd suggestion that they could be considered for EU membership has meant the invasion risk was intensified

“How dare this independent country make independent decisions??? ”

Almost like you don’t see Ukraine as a proper country, wonder who else thinks that?

 

[David O'Day]

No but its what Russia thinks and the provocation is clearly the suggestion of further NATO movement to the Russian border in addition to the bonkers comment by Von De Lyon or whatever she is called that EU membership would be considered. Neither of these suggestions were ever going to be tolerated by the Kremlin

Sounds like the kind of thing Putin would say.

 

[PVA]

His posts in here over the last year suddenly make a lot more sense now but crikey these takes are absolutely batshit.

 

[David O'Day]

His posts in here over the last year suddenly make a lot more sense now but crikey these takes are absolutely batshit.

He doesn't believe the shit he is spouting but he's so far down the shitposting rabbit hole there's no way back for him.

 

[Grendel]

His posts in here over the last year suddenly make a lot more sense now but crikey these takes are absolutely batshit.

They aren’t at all batshit - what’s batshit is the absurd belief Putin is just going to retreat and disappear

 

[Nuskyblue]

Wow I’m not.
germany still teach their mistakes and how to avoid those same mistakes

An Irishman told me all about it in a bar in Belfast, what happened back then was shocking really and I'd imagine that >90% of us in England know nothing about it

 

[David O'Day]

They aren’t at all batshit - what’s batshit is the absurd belief Putin is just going to retreat and disappear

It's Batshit to in anyway justify the actions of Putin which is what you are doing.

You are coming out with the same nonsense that Corbyn and the Stop The War came out with a year ago.

 

[tisza]

Precisely and the subsequent pushing of NATO and even the absurd suggestion that they could be considered for EU membership has meant the invasion risk was intensified

From a Ukrainian point of view the Russian land grabs made them fearful of further land grabs. NATO was seen by the Ukrainian people as the only security that could have against this. The same reason other former Soviet bloc states joined in the first place. They didn't join to be closer to the West but to ensure they didn't suffer Russian occupation again.
Putin has said he had no objections to Ukraine joining the EU.
Russian invasion could have been geared to securing the Donbas and Luhansk regions but the push for Kiev showed they wanted everything.
As Russia is so keen to point out with their own new missile technology the geographical proximity of NATO is redundant. Having a missile based in Ukraine is not that much different from having one based in Poland or France - give or take 5-10 minutes flying time.
The outcome is the reversion to an arms race. As Trump was so adamant in pointing out NATO spending had fallen sharply - hardly a sign of aggressive intent. Now nearly all NATO states are announcing large increases in military spending.
NATO will enlarge again. Sweden and Finland can hardly be seen as historically hysterical but their swift applications show their concern about the future of Russian intentions.

 

[SBT]

No but its what Russia thinks and the provocation is clearly the suggestion of further NATO movement to the Russian border in addition to the bonkers comment by Von De Lyon or whatever she is called that EU membership would be considered. Neither of these suggestions were ever going to be tolerated by the Kremlin

You never did answer my question as to whether you thought Russia’s response to these ‘provocations’ were proportionate.

 

[PVA]

You never did answer my question as to whether you thought Russia’s response to these ‘provocations’ were proportionate.

No they weren't.








Not strong enough IIRC.

 

[shmmeee]

Grendels approach to geopolitics.

 

[Flying Fokker]

Finland as far as I am aware is recognised as a separate Country and is not considered in any shape or form a Russian stat

Bloody Russians, they meddle in everyone’s independence. Wikipedia is bollocks of course. The whole region is unbelievable.

Following Swedish losses in the 1808-1809 Finnish War with Russia, Finland became part of the Russian Empire from 1809 until its independence in 1917. Finland was a Grand Duchy of the Russian Empire, although during this time it retained many of the laws that it had adopted while part of Sweden.

Finland as a part of the Russian Empire 1809–1917​

Russia captured the region of Finland from Sweden in 1808–1809. Finland became an autonomic part of Imperial Russia and most of the laws from the time of the Swedish rule remained in force. During the Russian rule, Finland became a special region developed by order of the Emperor. For example, Helsinki city centre was built during Russian rule.
Starting from 1899, Russia tightened its grip on the Grand Duchy of Finland. Finland did not take part in World War I, but nationalism also had an influence on the region of Finland. Finland was granted its own parliament in 1906, and the first elections were held in 1907. Finland declared independence on 6 December 1917, and the Bolshevik government that seized power in the October Revolution in Russia recognised Finnish independence on 31 December 1917.
Important events
1812 Helsinki becomes the capital
1827 The old capital Turku is destroyed in a fire, emphasising Helsinki’s standing
1860 Finland adopts its own currency, the markka
1906 Universal and equal right to vote, also for women

6 December 1917 Finland declares independence

 

[skybluetony176]

Finland as far as I am aware is recognised as a separate Country and is not considered in any shape or form a Russian state

So is Ukraine. Even Russia recognises this through the Belavezha Accord and the Budapest Memorandum. Not to mention that Ukrainian had a referendum on independence with the blessing of Russian where they voted overwhelmingly in favour of independence, including in Crimea. You’re utterly clueless.

 

[Grendel]

Bloody Russians, they meddle in everyone’s independence. Wikipedia is bollocks of course. The whole region is unbelievable.

Following Swedish losses in the 1808-1809 Finnish War with Russia, Finland became part of the Russian Empire from 1809 until its independence in 1917. Finland was a Grand Duchy of the Russian Empire, although during this time it retained many of the laws that it had adopted while part of Sweden.

Finland as a part of the Russian Empire 1809–1917​

Russia captured the region of Finland from Sweden in 1808–1809. Finland became an autonomic part of Imperial Russia and most of the laws from the time of the Swedish rule remained in force. During the Russian rule, Finland became a special region developed by order of the Emperor. For example, Helsinki city centre was built during Russian rule.
Starting from 1899, Russia tightened its grip on the Grand Duchy of Finland. Finland did not take part in World War I, but nationalism also had an influence on the region of Finland. Finland was granted its own parliament in 1906, and the first elections were held in 1907. Finland declared independence on 6 December 1917, and the Bolshevik government that seized power in the October Revolution in Russia recognised Finnish independence on 31 December 1917.
Important events
1812 Helsinki becomes the capital
1827 The old capital Turku is destroyed in a fire, emphasising Helsinki’s standing
1860 Finland adopts its own currency, the markka
1906 Universal and equal right to vote, also for women

6 December 1917 Finland declares independence

Hardly the same is it

 

[SBT]

Hardly the same is it

Do you have a list of countries which aren’t really independent, sovereign states as they claim to be? Or is it just Ukraine?

 

[Grendel]

Do you have a list of countries which aren’t really independent, sovereign states as they claim to be? Or is it just Ukraine?

Its nothing to do with being really independent or any of this nonsense

What actually this really is about is in simple terms are Russia a threat to the NATO countries or not

My view is not. Therefore as a non Nato country we are not required to defend Ukraine

I do not see Russia as a threat - it’s clear they are in dialogue with the White House and are not planning to invade western Nato countries

The only threat to world peace - which frankly is all I care about - is if we continue this folly of supplying more and more military hardware to a country we have nothing to gain from if it’s free or not

Is it a good thing that Putin has done - well clearly no it isn’t - do I support it - no I don’t. But then I don’t support any military conflicts. I don’t think it impacts us and therefore our aim should be to broker peace not more war, death, misery and a real risk of escalation

I hope that’s clear enough for you

 

[skybluetony176]

Its nothing to do with being really independent or any of this nonsense

What actually this really is about is in simple terms are Russia a threat to the NATO countries or not

My view is not. Therefore as a non Nato country we are not required to defend Ukraine

I do not see Russia as a threat - it’s clear they are in dialogue with the White House and are not planning to invade western Nato countries

The only threat to world peace - which frankly is all I care about - is if we continue this folly of supplying more and more military hardware to a country we have nothing to gain from if it’s free or not

Is it a good thing that Putin has done - well clearly no it isn’t - do I support it - no I don’t. But then I don’t support any military conflicts. I don’t think it impacts us and therefore our aim should be to broker peace not more war, death, misery and a real risk of escalation

I hope that’s clear enough for you

So do you think Argentina should just invade the Falkland’s again? The Falklands isn’t in NATO after all.

 

[Grendel]

So do you think Argentina should just invade the Falkland’s again? The Falklands isn’t in NATO after all.

What has that got to do with anything you dimwit

 

[David O'Day]

What has that got to do with anything you dimwit

What did Cyprus have to do with anything? You dimwit

 

[SBT]

Its nothing to do with being really independent or any of this nonsense

What actually this really is about is in simple terms are Russia a threat to the NATO countries or not

My view is not. Therefore as a non Nato country we are not required to defend Ukraine

I do not see Russia as a threat - it’s clear they are in dialogue with the White House and are not planning to invade western Nato countries

The only threat to world peace - which frankly is all I care about - is if we continue this folly of supplying more and more military hardware to a country we have nothing to gain from if it’s free or not

Is it a good thing that Putin has done - well clearly no it isn’t - do I support it - no I don’t. But then I don’t support any military conflicts. I don’t think it impacts us and therefore our aim should be to broker peace not more war, death, misery and a real risk of escalation

I hope that’s clear enough for you

A lot to unpack there (sovereign independence = nonsense?) but my main question boils down to this - if it’s wrong for us to perceive Russia as a threat, why is it legitimate for Russia to perceive NATO as one?

 

[fernandopartridge]

Whatever your views on Putin you could feel empathy with him against this set of utter wankers

 

[skybluetony176]

What has that got to do with anything you dimwit

Far be it for me to give you a second history lesson in the same day but the Falklands is not under the protection of NATO, I was only 9 when the Falklands was invaded by Argentina but still remember that NATO wouldn’t get involved because members territory south of the Tropic of Cancer are not under the protection of NATO. You’re intimating that we should only give protection to territories under the protection of NATO. On that basis you’re saying that the Falklands is fair game for Argentina.