USSR invades Ukraine. (11 Viewers)

[shmmeee]

“Grendel trolling”

you literally are 5 years old. I think it started by accusing me of being a coward - a real sane argument - than a bizarre series of rants when you soldiers are there to go to war - felt a bit silly then hastily backtracked

wow you really have true Dunkirk spirit don’t you

oh and I said about serious sanctions and you said I’m being silly as we’d all be cold at night with no heating

I know you’re doing this to save on therapy or hooker bills so this is the last I’ll reply to you on this, but anyone can go look at how this started, here it is:

Hopefully something comes of it and the war can stop, but the idea Russia can get a country to act against its own interests with military threat doesn’t sit right with me.

you keep implying you’d like some military action here from the west to defend Ukraine

Id like a sovereign nation to make their own decisions and not be left at the whims of a dictator.

What’s being reported here seems reasonable though not sure how the Russians would agree to it.

We’ve established you’re a coward who would leave the Ukrainians to their deaths I’m not sure what going over it again accomplishes other than feeding your need for attention.

We’ve established i am a coward - so you’d join up and fight? Or send some other idiot to die to satisfy your sense of fair play?

You also seem to be missing a basic point that the leaders of the West (thank God) tend to agree with me and not you and some of the other crackpots on here

That kind of mentality is what started World War 1

As I said, I said I hope the peace talks work, you went on about me signing up for the army.

 

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[Grendel]

Oh dear Putin style editing abs selective quoting - someone’s unhappy

 

[Marty]

It looks like there is a lot of money going back towards Russia. (People taking money back into the country or speculators? ) The rouble has risen 25% against the massive falls last week.

Speculators. Black swan event. Free tendies for those willing to get involved.

 

[PVA]

Do they? I swear they have like 2.2m active personel.

The total includes absolutely everyone in the military though, navy, air force etc.

Purely in terms of ground troops Russia has about 250k and Ukraine 150k. They have a huge navy and air force which makes their overall figures much, much higher than Ukraine's, but in terms of ground troops they're muchore closely matched and Russia has committed a big chunk already

 

[Kieranp96]

The total includes absolutely everyone in the military though, navy, air force etc.

Purely in terms of ground troops Russia has about 250k and Ukraine 150k. They have a huge navy and air force which makes their overall figures much, much higher than Ukraine's, but in terms of ground troops they're muchore closely matched and Russia has committed a big chunk already

ah ok, thank you for explaining.

 

[shmmeee]

ah ok, thank you for explaining.

This is a decent breakdown:Russia-Ukraine crisis: How big are their militaries?

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Kremlin up in arms about putin being described as a war criminal!!

Um really??

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Amazing how quick things become normal. 3m people have left their homes to go to another country!

3,000,000 let that sink in.

 

[Alan Dugdales Moustache]

Amazing how quick things become normal. 3m people have left their homes to go to another country!

3,000,000 let that sink in.

That's nearly all of Wales.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

i have a lot of faith in our armed forces I personally don’t see the necessity of creating another pointless episode of bloodshed - in which people will lose sons and husbands - when diplomacy will be a far better outcome

I don’t see it a cowardly act not wanting more wasted British deaths in a trouble zone that’s always been a powder keg since crimea was bizarrely transferred to the soviet state of Ukraine in tbe 50’s. It’s no more valid than Afghanistan or Iraq

You may not have noticed but the bloodshed's already happening and people are losing sons, husbands, wives, children.

But as your second paragraph states, they're not British so why should we give a fuck. Though I think part of that's disingenous and by 'British' involvement you're actually just worried about your own arse.

And before you come back with some quote about wanting war and wanting to send others to die or other such bullshit, I clearly don't. As for your quote:

nah mate it’s working class oiks who die mr white privilege with his cosy middle class life will send to their deaths then honour them in a ceremony to pretend he did his bit

I think you'll find that's a pretty accurate description of a large part of the Tory party and their following.

I fear that if we go down the appeasement route you're suggesting (and it is appeasement, not concessions) all it does is just mean we're back in the same situation in a few years. It won't discourage Putin at all or end his long-held aims and he'll use the time to re-arm and re-supply before pushing once again. History has shown this to be true of people like him and even the current situation in Russia itself shows it. Crimea was effectively sacrificed to appease Putin and as we're seeing it didn't work. It won't work this time either.

So it's not that I want a war. I just fear we may end up getting one eventually whether we like or not.

 

[Grendel]

I wish there was a yawn emoji

 

[PVA]

Putin speech from yesterday:


“[Russians] will always be able to distinguish true patriots from scum and traitors and will simply spit them out like a gnat that accidentally flew into their mouths,” he said. “I am convinced that such a natural and necessary self-purification of society will only strengthen our country.”

 

[clint van damme]

Putin speech from yesterday:


“[Russians] will always be able to distinguish true patriots from scum and traitors and will simply spit them out like a gnat that accidentally flew into their mouths,” he said. “I am convinced that such a natural and necessary self-purification of society will only strengthen our country.”

His speech, if translated correctly, was unhinged.
Or it could have been a tactic to put distance between himself and oligarchs in order to make sanctions look like a waste of time.

 

[duffer]

You may not have noticed but the bloodshed's already happening and people are losing sons, husbands, wives, children.

But as your second paragraph states, they're not British so why should we give a fuck. Though I think part of that's disingenous and by 'British' involvement you're actually just worried about your own arse.

And before you come back with some quote about wanting war and wanting to send others to die or other such bullshit, I clearly don't. As for your quote:

I think you'll find that's a pretty accurate description of a large part of the Tory party and their following.

I fear that if we go down the appeasement route you're suggesting (and it is appeasement, not concessions) all it does is just mean we're back in the same situation in a few years. It won't discourage Putin at all or end his long-held aims and he'll use the time to re-arm and re-supply before pushing once again. History has shown this to be true of people like him and even the current situation in Russia itself shows it. Crimea was effectively sacrificed to appease Putin and as we're seeing it didn't work. It won't work this time either.

So it's not that I want a war. I just fear we may end up getting one eventually whether we like or not.

Some fair points here.

I think the only thing I would say is that by the time Putin digs himself out of Ukraine and rebuilds his military, western Europe will also have substantially re-armed, and we'll also know him for what he truly is.

I don't care for throwing Ukraine under a bus either. I hope that there are at least some politicians in the world who are doing a bit more than they're saying.

But regardless, I still don't see Putin being stupid enough to attack a NATO country directly, he must know that's a battle he could not win.

 

[AOM]

Putin speech from yesterday:


“[Russians] will always be able to distinguish true patriots from scum and traitors and will simply spit them out like a gnat that accidentally flew into their mouths,” he said. “I am convinced that such a natural and necessary self-purification of society will only strengthen our country.”

 

[Otis]

That's nearly all of Wales.

If I was in Wales, I would want to leave too

 

[Alan Dugdales Moustache]

You may not have noticed but the bloodshed's already happening and people are losing sons, husbands, wives, children.

But as your second paragraph states, they're not British so why should we give a fuck. Though I think part of that's disingenous and by 'British' involvement you're actually just worried about your own arse.

And before you come back with some quote about wanting war and wanting to send others to die or other such bullshit, I clearly don't. As for your quote:

I think you'll find that's a pretty accurate description of a large part of the Tory party and their following.

I fear that if we go down the appeasement route you're suggesting (and it is appeasement, not concessions) all it does is just mean we're back in the same situation in a few years. It won't discourage Putin at all or end his long-held aims and he'll use the time to re-arm and re-supply before pushing once again. History has shown this to be true of people like him and even the current situation in Russia itself shows it. Crimea was effectively sacrificed to appease Putin and as we're seeing it didn't work. It won't work this time either.

So it's not that I want a war. I just fear we may end up getting one eventually whether we like or not.

Agree with a lot of this . What I really think is wrong is when, let's say for argument's sake, there is shortly to be a peace deal: Russia keeps Crimea and eastern areas as part of " Russia" and Ukraine agrees never to join NATO. Russia guarantees Ukrainian sovereignty blah blah.
WIthin months or even weeks gas supply to Europe restored , sanctions withdrawn.

Russian aggression has won.

Whatever kind of "deal" is struck eventually, we should never withdraw sanctions and continue to increase military spending to beef up those countries bordering Russia.

What has happened in Ukraine is inhumane beyond belief. The problem is people have short memories and are all too concerned about how much money they have in their pockets. If that's the thinking then we are playing into Russia's hands.

 

[Flying Fokker]

Propaganda again:


Russia says neo-Nazi “Azov” militants blew up building where they were holding hostages


Responding to claims by Ukraine that an airstrike destroyed a theater in Mariupol and killed civilians sheltering there, the Russian Defense Ministry said there had been no such strikes against ground targets in that city, and accused the neo-Nazi “Azov” battalion of killing its hostages.
The Russian military was aware of reports that “Azov” militants had kept civilians inside the theater as human shields, and did not consider the building a target for airstrikes for that reason, Major-General Igor Konashenkov said in a statement.
“Previously, it was known from the refugees who got out of Mariupol that the Nazis of the Azov Battalion could hold civilians hostage in the theater building, using the upper floors as firing points,” Konashenkov said.
Taking into account the potential danger to civilians, and “the provocation already carried out by the nationalists on March 9 with hospital No. 3 in Mariupol, the theater building in the city center was never considered a target for destruction,” he added.
According to Konashenkov, the “available reliable information” indicates that Azov militants committed “a new bloody provocation by blowing up the theater building they had mined.”
The paramilitary Ukrainian unit that uses WWII Nazi symbols had made Mariupol its base, and reportedly forbid civilians from fleeing to safety as Russian forces and fighters of the Donetsk People’s Republic surrounded the city.

 

[Alan Dugdales Moustache]

Propaganda again:


Russia says neo-Nazi “Azov” militants blew up building where they were holding hostages


Responding to claims by Ukraine that an airstrike destroyed a theater in Mariupol and killed civilians sheltering there, the Russian Defense Ministry said there had been no such strikes against ground targets in that city, and accused the neo-Nazi “Azov” battalion of killing its hostages.
The Russian military was aware of reports that “Azov” militants had kept civilians inside the theater as human shields, and did not consider the building a target for airstrikes for that reason, Major-General Igor Konashenkov said in a statement.
“Previously, it was known from the refugees who got out of Mariupol that the Nazis of the Azov Battalion could hold civilians hostage in the theater building, using the upper floors as firing points,” Konashenkov said.
Taking into account the potential danger to civilians, and “the provocation already carried out by the nationalists on March 9 with hospital No. 3 in Mariupol, the theater building in the city center was never considered a target for destruction,” he added.
According to Konashenkov, the “available reliable information” indicates that Azov militants committed “a new bloody provocation by blowing up the theater building they had mined.”
The paramilitary Ukrainian unit that uses WWII Nazi symbols had made Mariupol its base, and reportedly forbid civilians from fleeing to safety as Russian forces and fighters of the Donetsk People’s Republic surrounded the city.

You'd have though, of all peoples on the planet, that Russians would know what a "Nazi" was . It's just banded about by Putrid without any context whatsoever.

 

[Flying Fokker]

Is Ukraine to be defeated?

I think there is a fair chance Russia will try to save face.

How Putin's 'legendary' paratroopers have been obliterated by hero Ukrainians as Russia’s tinpot army crumbles (thesun.co.uk)

 

[Otis]

What the hell is wrong with these people? His personal friend and his idol?

A man who suppresses his own people, who rigs elections so he can't lose, who arrests those for even silent protest, who has his opponents either killed or imprisoned, who breaks international law and uses banned weapons and who deliberately targets civilians in times of war?

That personal friend and idol?

 

[tisza]

View attachment 24196

What the hell is wrong with these people? His personal friend and his idol?

A man who suppresses his own people, who rigs elections so he can't lose, who arrests those for even silent protest, who has his opponents either killed or imprisoned, who breaks international law and uses banned weapons and who deliberately targets civilians in times of war?

That personal friend and idol?

It is Duterte. Another complete nutter.
Look at Putin's "mates" ( allies) Syria,belorus, Philippines, north Korea, Iran and list goes on. None the hub of liberal democracy.

 

[Otis]

It is Duterte. Another complete nutter.
Look at Putin's "mates" ( allies) Syria,belorus, Philippines, north Korea, Iran and list goes on. None the hub of liberal democracy.

Haven't they got a military agreement with the US though, to protect each other?

 

[tisza]

Haven't they got a military agreement with the US though, to protect each other?

For those countries ( like Russia) bits of paper are only used when it's to their own advantage.
Other leaders "admiring" Putin tend to split into 2 camps.
1. USA. America isn't popular for a variety of reasons - too successful, characterised "toxic" cultural influence, preaching tendencies and so on.
2. Some leaders (not just "despots" ) admire the way he has hung onto power, suppressed opposition, controls everything and amassed a huge personal fortune for himself, family and friends.

 

[duffer]

For those countries ( like Russia) bits of paper are only used when it's to their own advantage.
Other leaders "admiring" Putin tend to split into 2 camps.
1. USA. America isn't popular for a variety of reasons - too successful, characterised "toxic" cultural influence, preaching tendencies and so on.
2. Some leaders (not just "despots" ) admire the way he has hung onto power, suppressed opposition, controls everything and amassed a huge personal fortune for himself, family and friends.

I think, in all fairness, there are plenty of other reasons the U.S. and the west aren't entirely trusted by non-aligned countries as well.

There is a degree of hypocrisy when both we and the US talk about supporting a 'rules-based' world order, only to act far beyond those rules when it suits us.

None of this makes what Putin is doing right, but my genuine hope is that when this is all done and dusted that we'll look again at our own behaviour and how we support despotic regimes elsewhere.

 

[PVA]

This is very good and worth a few minutes of your time:

How Russia’s mistakes and Ukrainian resistance altered Putin’s war

Moscow’s initial hopes of lightning-fast victory foundered in face of fierce opposition and its own shortcomings

ig.ft.com

 

[PVA]

This is also worth reading, but is a very tough read. Absolutely horrible and totally unimaginable.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

View attachment 24196

What the hell is wrong with these people? His personal friend and his idol?

A man who suppresses his own people, who rigs elections so he can't lose, who arrests those for even silent protest, who has his opponents either killed or imprisoned, who breaks international law and uses banned weapons and who deliberately targets civilians in times of war?

That personal friend and idol?

To me, that sounds like exactly the person Duterte aspires to be.

 

[tisza]

None of this makes what Putin is doing right, but my genuine hope is that when this is all done and dusted that we'll look again at our own behaviour and how we support despotic regimes elsewhere.

Sadly think the lesson here is that nothing changes. Always going to be aggressors, people who want more power, wealth, influence etc. Globally you can add religious differences to the list.

No-one could believe the atrocities in Bosnia could happen in a "modern" era Europe. Now we have a maor war and bombings of civilians in Europe.
There's a global NIMBY culture.Europe cares more about the Ukrainian issue than other parts of the world do because in is in their backyard. Worry more about Russia than they do about Iran & China.
African nations care more about conflicts on their own continent etc.

When we've mainly moved away from the importance of oil as an energy source are countries going to be as interested in conflicts in the likes of Iraq, Libya, Kuwait etc?

Currently over 25 conflicts across the world that are classified as wars or civil wars.

UN isn't fit for purpose when you have a security council where a select number of countries have the power of veto.

 

[shmmeee]

Seen Iran mentioned a few times, genuine question as I’ve not been paying attention, what have they been up to?

 

[duffer]

Seen Iran mentioned a few times, genuine question as I’ve not been paying attention, what have they been up to?

In a nutshell, I think it's a bit like this: Repressive regime in a very big country trying to control a number of internal factions, lots of oil but low overall wealth, seeking nuclear weapons.

No trust of the west for a number of historical reasons, Israel (a local nuclear power) and the US desperate to prevent Iran getting their own nuclear capability, hence a long cold and occasionally hot war with the west.

That's my basic reading of it anyway, but I'm a bit late to geopolitics I'm afraid - as a city fan most of my time has been spent studying forensic accountancy.

 

[Flying Fokker]

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

I think, in all fairness, there are plenty of other reasons the U.S. and the west aren't entirely trusted by non-aligned countries as well.

There is a degree of hypocrisy when both we and the US talk about supporting a 'rules-based' world order, only to act far beyond those rules when it suits us.

None of this makes what Putin is doing right, but my genuine hope is that when this is all done and dusted that we'll look again at our own behaviour and how we support despotic regimes elsewhere.

Yep the winners dont just write the history they write the rules too, after the event

The only world order that truly exists is that the powerful win

 

[Flying Fokker]

 

[PVA]