USSR invades Ukraine. (11 Viewers)

[Grendel]

A lot to unpack there (sovereign independence = nonsense?) but my main question boils down to this - if it’s wrong for us to perceive Russia as a threat, why is it legitimate for Russia to perceive NATO as one?

It’s at least an intelligent question

Russia is not a threat globally as its super power days have vanquished. China has taken its place and it’s second rate and nothing in reality to fear

It - i a suspect as you well know - sees Ukraine as a non sovereign state and it has never done so and it’s muscle flexing is pretty limited these days. The US - in my view - overblows it as a threat and an enemy and will be very happy to encourage a long miserable conflict in Ukraine. This therefore can and will probably linger on for years

Therefore my view is peace discussions need brokering or it’s a 10 year miserable conflict which suits the US and not the people on the ground

 

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[Grendel]

Far be it for me to give you a second history lesson in the same day but the Falklands is not under the protection of NATO, I was only 9 when the Falklands was invaded by Argentina but still remember that NATO wouldn’t get involved because members territory south of the Tropic of Cancer are not under the protection of NATO. You’re intimating that we should only give protection to territories under the protection of NATO. On that basis you’re saying that the Falklands is fair game for Argentina.

Tony when I say we - I mean Nato. Did you support the Iraq war? “I remembered even though I was 9 years old”

 

[SBT]

It’s at least an intelligent question

Russia is not a threat globally as its super power days have vanquished. China has taken its place and it’s second rate and nothing in reality to fear

It - i a suspect as you well know - sees Ukraine as a non sovereign state and it has never done so and it’s muscle flexing is pretty limited these days. The US - in my view - overblows it as a threat and an enemy and will be very happy to encourage a long miserable conflict in Ukraine. This therefore can and will probably linger on for years

Therefore my view is peace discussions need brokering or it’s a 10 year miserable conflict which suits the US and not the people on the ground

Russia is not a threat globally, and nothing to fear? It’s invaded two seperate countries in the past 15 years, and shot down a commercial airliner full of hundreds of Dutch, Aussies, Malaysians and Brits in the process.

Anyway, that doesn’t really answer my question - why is NATO a legitimate threat to Russia?

 

[Grendel]

Russia is not a threat globally, and nothing to fear? It’s invaded two seperate countries in the past 15 years, and shot down a commercial airliner full of hundreds of Dutch, Aussies, Malaysians and Brits in the process.

Anyway, that doesn’t really answer my question - why is NATO a legitimate threat to Russia?

It’s a threat from a Russian perspective. Have you ever worked in Russia in your long and distinguished journalist career?

 

[David O'Day]

Tony when I say we - I mean Nato. Did you support the Iraq war? “I remembered even though I was 9 years old”

You are spiralling a lot today

 

[SBT]

It’s a threat from a Russian perspective. Have you ever worked in Russia in your long and distinguished journalist career?

I know Russia claims it to be a threat - is that a justified view in reality?

 

[skybluetony176]

Tony when I say we - I mean Nato. Did you support the Iraq war? “I remembered even though I was 9 years old”

I know what you meant but apparently you don’t. The point stands. The Falklands is self governing and doesn’t fall under the protection of NATO, same as Ukraine.

I note you’re trying to change the subject but I’ll answer you. Gulf War 1, I did initially until a cousin who was a royal engineer at the time returned from it and said it was BS, if the UN had done it’s job in the first place it probably never would have happened and that was basically what they were being briefed in Saudi Arabia by their superiors before crossing into Kuwait. Gulf War 2 I always opposed.

I guess you brought it up because like Putin you think our mistakes justify Putins invasion of Ukraine.

 

[PVA]

"NATO is a defensive alliance whose members are committed to safeguarding the freedom and security of each other, against all threats, from all directions. Deterrence and defence is one of NATO’s core tasks."


It is literally a defensive organisation. How can it be a threat?

How is safeguarding the security of it's members provocative enough to cause you to invade a sovereign country?

 

[Grendel]

I know what you meant but apparently you don’t. The point stands. The Falklands is self governing and doesn’t fall under the protection of NATO, same as Ukraine.

I note you’re trying to change the subject but I’ll answer you. Gulf War 1, I did initially until a cousin who was a royal engineer at the time returned from it and said it was BS, if the UN had done it’s job in the first place it probably never would have happened and that was basically what they were being briefed in Saudi Arabia by their superiors before crossing into Kuwait. Gulf War 2 I always opposed.

I guess you brought it up because like Putin you think our mistakes justify Putins invasion of Ukraine.

So the Falkland Islands are not at all British - I didn’t know that Tony.

 

[Grendel]

"NATO is a defensive alliance whose members are committed to safeguarding the freedom and security of each other, against all threats, from all directions. Deterrence and defence is one of NATO’s core tasks."


It is literally a defensive organisation. How can it be a threat?

How is safeguarding the security of it's members provocative enough to cause you to invade a sovereign country?

What’s it safeguarding itself from?

 

[skybluetony176]

So the Falkland Islands are not at all British - I didn’t know that Tony.

There’s clearly a lot you don’t know. By choice of ignorance I suspect. The Falklands is a British overseas territory by choice and is self governing.

 

[Grendel]

Whatever your views on Putin you could feel empathy with him against this set of utter wankers

It’s probably tony, David,Shmmeee and PVA on a day out

 

[Grendel]

There’s clearly a lot you don’t know. By choice of ignorance I suspect. The Falklands is a British overseas territory by choice and is self governing.

Is Ukraine?

 

[skybluetony176]

Is Ukraine?

You don’t understand it but you’re actually proving my point.

 

[skybluetony176]

It’s probably tony, David,Shmmeee and PVA on a day out

By that same token you must be outside the Ukrainian embassy in combat’s with a Z embossed on them waving a Russian flag.

 

[David O'Day]

Soon it'll

It’s probably tony, David,Shmmeee and PVA on a day out

lol, russian stooge

 

[tisza]

It’s at least an intelligent question

Russia is not a threat globally as its super power days have vanquished. China has taken its place and it’s second rate and nothing in reality to fear

It - i a suspect as you well know - sees Ukraine as a non sovereign state and it has never done so and it’s muscle flexing is pretty limited these days. The US - in my view - overblows it as a threat and an enemy and will be very happy to encourage a long miserable conflict in Ukraine. This therefore can and will probably linger on for years

Therefore my view is peace discussions need brokering or it’s a 10 year miserable conflict which suits the US and not the people on the ground

Threat is a relative term. Enough of a threat to provoke Sweden & Finland to join NATO.
The likes of Moldova, Georgia, Armenia, Kazakstan, Tajikistan and a few other -stans have all expressed fears for their security from Russia in recent years. Putin has consistently over the last 10 years written and spoken about reestablishing the "Russian Empire".
These new hyperweapons Russia is now displaying are all many years in the design and production. Any weapon that can theoretically take out a whole country is hard to classify as a "defensive"weapon. It's borderline whether it is a deterrent as other countries now step up their production of similar weapons - mutually assured destruction has never been more obvious.
Labelling it a US vs Russia conflict does seem to be an over-simplification.
Peace discussions are absolutely vital as well as as a system of global security guarantees that protect all sovereign states not just Ukraine but the likes of Russia, Taiwan, numerous African states to name but a few in particular. UN needs to start by having a hard look at its own security council - the issue of permanent seats and vetos

 

[PVA]

What’s it safeguarding itself from?

Threats to the freedom and security of its members.

It literally says so right there.

 

[fernandopartridge]

This Is just weird

 

[tisza]

This Is just weird

Well there's 3 namechecks there that I have no idea who they are But seriously reducing it to film characters etc. is at best tasteless. People are dying in large numbers on both sides it's not an issue for frivolity.

 

[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

This Is just weird

In fairness, unless you've been in the trenches, it's pretty difficult to dismiss that, even if the language might appear a bit strange from here.

Perspective is everything.

 

[SBT]

Well there's 3 namechecks there that I have no idea who they are

Is it bad that I really want to know which three?

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Is it bad that I really want to know which three?

Milligan, Cleese, Everett

 

[fernandopartridge]

In fairness, unless you've been in the trenches, it's pretty difficult to dismiss that, even if the language might appear a bit strange from here.

Perspective is everything.

It's not the soldier's words but more NATO tweeting them? How odd. It's almost as if they are trying to romanticise the whole thing.

 

[Grendel]

It's not the soldier's words but more NATO tweeting them? How odd. It's almost as if they are trying to romanticise the whole thing.

PVA is probably writing it - yes its just strange

 

[PVA]

PVA is probably writing it - yes its just strange

Would you have preferred if he'd just said 'let Putin crack on with it'?

 

[shmmeee]

Country continually making attacks on this countries infrastructure, aiming to destabilise our democracy and economy, and literally killing people with impunity on our soil while saying how awful we are “is not a threat”.

Man this thread just keeps on giving.

 

[skybluetony176]

Country continually making attacks on this countries infrastructure, aiming to destabilise our democracy and economy, and literally killing people with impunity on our soil while saying how awful we are “is not a threat”.

Man this thread just keeps on giving.

Remember the Salisbury poisoning and people losing their shit on here at Corbyns response, many of who now seem to be Putin apologists.

 

[Alan Dugdales Moustache]

You are spiralling a lot today

Hahahaha. That's rich from the Real IRA.

 

[tisza]

Is it bad that I really want to know which three?

Na’vi, the Harkonnens and Thanos.

 

[PVA]

Na’vi, the Harkonnens and Thanos.

Second one was a Formula 1 driver iirc

 

[PVA]

Country continually making attacks on this countries infrastructure, aiming to destabilise our democracy and economy, and literally killing people with impunity on our soil while saying how awful we are “is not a threat”.

Man this thread just keeps on giving.

Yep all that stuff is not a threat.

But just considering joining the EU is a provocative threat worthy of full scale invasion and conquer.

Fucking incredible logic.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Its nothing to do with being really independent or any of this nonsense

What actually this really is about is in simple terms are Russia a threat to the NATO countries or not

My view is not. Therefore as a non Nato country we are not required to defend Ukraine

I do not see Russia as a threat - it’s clear they are in dialogue with the White House and are not planning to invade western Nato countries

The only threat to world peace - which frankly is all I care about - is if we continue this folly of supplying more and more military hardware to a country we have nothing to gain from if it’s free or not

Is it a good thing that Putin has done - well clearly no it isn’t - do I support it - no I don’t. But then I don’t support any military conflicts. I don’t think it impacts us and therefore our aim should be to broker peace not more war, death, misery and a real risk of escalation

I hope that’s clear enough for you

This where I totally disagree. The threat to world peace is Putin and if we don't continue this 'folly' of sending military hardware then all we'll see is the same shit somewhere else in a few years.

You don't want military conflicts or war. Neither do I. But whether we like it or not Putin is going to continue waging them and we're left with no other option but to try and help stop him.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

It’s a threat from a Russian perspective. Have you ever worked in Russia in your long and distinguished journalist career?

And you can argue Russia is a threat from a western perspective.

It's the line they're touting to convince the Russian people that what they're doing is justified and not some barbaric land grab. Doesn't make it in any way true.

Just like Brexit was full of stuff that riled people up to leave even though it wasn't reality. Only if you told them that you were suddenly a traitor and hated the country.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

And you can argue Russia is a threat from a western perspective.

It's the line they're touting to convince the Russian people that what they're doing is justified and not some barbaric land grab. Doesn't make it in any way true.

Just like Brexit was full of stuff that riled people up to leave even though it wasn't reality. Only if you told them that you were suddenly a traitor and hated the country.

If a provocation for Russia to invade Ukraine is for the latter to flirt with EU and/or NATO membership, I wonder what Russia actually invading Ukraine with everything it has serves as provocation for the West.