skyblueelephant76
Well-Known Member
Just out of interest, have you ever been to Ukraine?
USSR invades Ukraine. (13 Viewers)
- Thread starter Alan Dugdales Moustache
- Start date
Sky_Blue_Dreamer
Well-Known Member
Well if Russia fucked off out of a sovereign state then nobody else would die and there would be peace.
Do you not want that?
Sky_Blue_Dreamer
Well-Known Member
Not really. In wartime there was massive restrictions on reporting in the UK and on how it could be reported. It's what happens in war for reasons of both morale and intelligence.
Sky_Blue_Dreamer
Well-Known Member
never seen anyone contradict themselves in the same sentence before.
Doesn't want to regain any former USSR territory apart from the bits that he does.
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
Thanks for that insight but he is referring to the present day UK media and the current government.
It literally starts with “Or even non wartime”.
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Grendel
Well-Known Member
That is not a contradiction - Ukraine and Crimea in particular has always been viewed by Russia - the old pre Soviet Russia - there is no contradiction.
Grendel
Well-Known Member
Eh? He means now
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
But a lot of what happened to press in Ukraine pre war was either a hangover from previous Russian friendly presidents, especially true under Kuchma who closed down many opposition favouring outlets and really ramped up surveillance and intimidation on “unfriendly” journalists. In the period between Russia invading the Donbas and annexing Crimea some of the murders of journalists in Ukraine were committed by Russian agents. Look up the case of Pavel Sheremet for example. These incidents all add to Ukraines score on the press freedom index so can give a false impression that it’s all on the shoulders of the current government. I’m not saying it’s perfect but the fact is as soon as a pro European government came into power press freedom started improving, the war has obviously set that back but that’s only to be expected. There was never an overnight fix to hangovers from the era of the USSR and the period that followed of pro Russian government. You’re talking about a mindset that was ingrained into generations, it’s very disingenuous to suggest addressing that isn’t going to take generational changes. I think you’re firstly failing to understand the history of Ukraine and secondly finding it too easy to swallow the kind of rhetoric you’d expect to see from far right pro Russian types on the western stage.
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
What? You were talking about the current UK government.
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
And now I’m talking about the Ukrainian government. Keep up.
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
Sorry sickboy was it too much information for you so you had no choice but to find it funny.
Here’s some more for you. In the reporter’s without borders poll when Kuchma left power Ukraine was 132nd in their freedom index, they’re now 90th IIRC. Ironically if you look into the details of that although their position hasn’t changed during the attempted all out invasion by Russia Ukraines score has marginally improved. So in fact press freedom is still improving despite the wartime footing they’re currently on. Your freedom of press line doesn’t hold up well against independent facts. Work still to do for certain but heading in the right direction. For context Russia is 164 in the index. Maybe you should be more concerned about Russia if freedom of press is your yardstick.
Here’s some more for you. In the reporter’s without borders poll when Kuchma left power Ukraine was 132nd in their freedom index, they’re now 90th IIRC. Ironically if you look into the details of that although their position hasn’t changed during the attempted all out invasion by Russia Ukraines score has marginally improved. So in fact press freedom is still improving despite the wartime footing they’re currently on. Your freedom of press line doesn’t hold up well against independent facts. Work still to do for certain but heading in the right direction. For context Russia is 164 in the index. Maybe you should be more concerned about Russia if freedom of press is your yardstick.
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
I’d rather listen to actual Ukrainian journalists on this one, thanks.
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
You do know that listening to Ukrainian Journalists and paying attention to facts from an independent organisation such as Reporters Without Borders don’t have to be mutually exclusive. It is possible to look at the bigger picture and form a balanced view considering all the facts not just a narrow doctrine that suits.
duffer
Well-Known Member
Thanks, but that's not very honest. You're not actually listening to Ukrainian journalists, are you?
You're trying to dig out examples of press suppression but completely ignoring the fact that the vast majority of Ukrainians (which would presumably include most journalists), do not want to live under Putin's rule. If you were genuinely listening, that would be ringing in your ears.
Again, if it's a free press that really bothers you, would there be more free press in Ukraine under Putin's rule?
Simple question.
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
They’d automatically dropped 80+ places on the only reliable measurement of press freedom. It wouldn’t just be press freedom though. It would also include freedom to internet access to outside sources. Free in Ukraine, suppressed in Russia. Unless you live near the border of a neighbouring country where internet access isn’t restricted and you can get a 4g from a non Russian supplier.
It’s a stupid argument from the offset. The simple fact is that the easiest way to ensure Ukraine keeps improving on things like press freedom is to ensure it stays out of Russia’s hands and influence. It’s no accident Ukraine has come on leaps and bounds on press freedom since it started rejecting governments favourable to Russia for more pro European specifically the EU governments.
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
No of course not and I've never said or claimed there would be. I'd rather listen to what they're saying than a regurgitated online article on a football forum.
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
But you’re using press freedom as a judgement on Ukraine and Ukraine alone as a reasoning as to why we shouldn’t be involved. The alternative is to let a country with one of the worst track records in the world on press freedom crack on. It was a shit argument from the outset. The kind you see MAGA republicans use in congress to block aid to Ukraine. That’s the company you’re keeping by choosing this one issue from a very narrow viewpoint that ignores the bigger picture.
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
Sorry it’s hard to take someone seriously who just compared the situation with the Ukrainian press to that of the UK government and media.
L
Not really!!
The Economist: Do you stand by what you said about possibly sending ground troops to Ukraine?
Emmanuel Macron: Absolutely. As I said, I’m not ruling anything out, because we are facing someone who is not ruling anything out. We have undoubtedly been too hesitant by defining the limits of our action to someone who no longer has any and who is the aggressor! Our capacity is to be credible, to continue to help, to give Ukraine the means to resist. But our credibility also depends on a capacity to deter by not giving full visibility as to what we will or will not do. Otherwise we weaken ourselves, which is the framework within which we have been operating until now. In fact, many countries said that in the weeks that followed that they understood our approach, that they agreed with our position and that this position was a good thing. I have a clear strategic objective: Russia cannot win in Ukraine. If Russia wins in Ukraine, there will be no security in Europe. Who can pretend that Russia will stop there? What security will there be for the other neighbouring countries, Moldova, Romania, Poland, Lithuania and the others? And behind that, what credibility for Europeans who would have spent billions, said that the survival of the continent was at stake and not have given themselves the means to stop Russia? So yes, we mustn’t rule anything out because our objective is that Russia must never be able to win in Ukraine.
Emmanuel Macron: Absolutely. As I said, I’m not ruling anything out, because we are facing someone who is not ruling anything out. We have undoubtedly been too hesitant by defining the limits of our action to someone who no longer has any and who is the aggressor! Our capacity is to be credible, to continue to help, to give Ukraine the means to resist. But our credibility also depends on a capacity to deter by not giving full visibility as to what we will or will not do. Otherwise we weaken ourselves, which is the framework within which we have been operating until now. In fact, many countries said that in the weeks that followed that they understood our approach, that they agreed with our position and that this position was a good thing. I have a clear strategic objective: Russia cannot win in Ukraine. If Russia wins in Ukraine, there will be no security in Europe. Who can pretend that Russia will stop there? What security will there be for the other neighbouring countries, Moldova, Romania, Poland, Lithuania and the others? And behind that, what credibility for Europeans who would have spent billions, said that the survival of the continent was at stake and not have given themselves the means to stop Russia? So yes, we mustn’t rule anything out because our objective is that Russia must never be able to win in Ukraine.
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
Okay. Firstly I didn’t compare our government and media to Ukraine. I just pointed out that we’re not exactly free of issues ourselves. Completely different, you’re adding your own context. You dismissed that and then rather poetically half an our later a story broke about press intimidation in the UK from authorities. If I was going to make a direct comparison I’d point out that our rating on press freedom is nearer to Ukraines than Ukrainians is to Russias. Ironically your adopted country of Italy is ranked even nearer to Ukraine again on press freedom than us. Despite your knew found very selective concern about press freedom you’re ignoring a lot of facts from trusted sources because it doesn’t suit your narrative. If you were being cynical you could be forgiven for believing that you’re being disingenuous.
I haven’t got much time for him usually but fair play to Macron who has stepped up recently (after embarrassing himself a bit early days). He needs to tell his EU/European counterparts to pull their fingers out and start contributing more to their collective defence. Crazy that even after the war many still aren’t even up to 2% of GDP
Well yeah, they probably would be if another nation fully committed troops and equipment to the war.
And before you say it, no I'm not saying I want France to enter the war.
The west should fully commit to properly equipping Ukraine, like they were previously - which enabled Ukraine to push Russia right back to the border in places. That was the critical time, that was the time that Ukraine could have defeated Russia.
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
I wonder if Macron will get the punchbag out again for a photoshoot?
Grendel
Well-Known Member
May even wear a hoodie
The 2022 counteroffensive yes, that was the time to defeat Russia.
eastwoodsdustman
Well-Known Member
Thats not a very nice thing to say about his wife. I know shes knocking on a bit but bloody hell.
Grendel
Well-Known Member
He will be too busy with his “bodyguard” to notice
And yet I have a better grasp of the English language.