Victory for the City of Coventry yesterday (21 Viewers)

Brighton Sky Blue · Nov 17, 2014

GinettasStickySofa said:
1. Good, I hope you're right.

2. "SISU are the only show in town". Remember that?

3. What happens next could well be an AFC Coventry. One that, given the size of our city and the catchment area around it, could be successful.

1. Look at the recent accounts. The club is propped up by SISU's investors every time it makes a loss.

2. No, you said 'it has been proven there would be interested parties'. Who are these interested parties and where is the proof?

3. It would need its own ground and people to finance it. For it to get even to the same level as the present entity this is not trivial and if it were successful you'd need somewhere a lot bigger than the next biggest ground in Coventry which is the Butts.

Brighton Sky Blue · Nov 17, 2014

mattylad said:
To play devils advocate perhaps it says alot about how the sports teams in Coventry have made people feel? Look at the massive PR job Wasps have done so far, it probably eclipses everything we have done in the last 5 years!

What has Cov Rugby done to alienate the Coventry public? The Blaze? Bees? Nothing. This is all about supporting a team because it plays well rather than because it has any connection to the city.

fernandopartridge · Nov 17, 2014

Brighton Sky Blue said:
1. They're already funding it themselves.

2. Which interested parties are these?

3. Suppose this happens. What next?

Indeed. This is where I was getting to. Who would be interested in a club with such a small or fickle support base?

Moff · Nov 17, 2014

mattylad said:
I have to hold my hands up and say outside of the CCFC fans on here I am struggling to find anyone who isn't a) over the moon that SISU will never get the Ricoh b) looking forward to having a top flight sports team in the city again.

Your experience seems completely at odds with mine.

Most people I have spoken to are disgusted the club (not SISU) will not ever get the chance to hold some ownership of the ground.

I am yet to meet anyone, sports fans or not who are excited about Wasps coming to Coventry. The main view I get is what the hell is a London team doing in Coventry, whilst the other view is couldn't give a shite about a club not from the City.

lordsummerisle · Nov 17, 2014

fernandopartridge said:
Indeed. This is where I was getting to. Who would be interested in a club with such a small or fickle support base?

Which does make me think that Wasps really haven't done their research if they're hoping for considerable support from this area.

Not exactly a hotbed of unstinting support here.

In either football code.

duffer · Nov 17, 2014

Nonleagueherewecome said:
You're forgetting one very important fact: that even after returning to The Ricoch, SISU said that they were not interested in bidding for ACL or the stadium because they were building their own ground. At no point did they make a bid until the belated, too-little-too-late bid for the Higgs share (which in itself showed how badly their previous brinkmanship, even after returning to The Ricoh, had burnt them).

The "make the same offer available to SISU" concept is a red herring too and absolute nonsesnse as a concept. If SISU wanted it, why didn't they make a bid-instead of continually protesting that their eyes lay elsewhere? If someone else has made a bid, and SISU wish to make a bid, then bloody do it-there was nothing stopping them. Generally speaking, the seller doesn't go around contacting prospective buyers asking them if they'd like to make an offer! And why on earth would you offer a bid from one company to another company that as far as the best evidence available suggests, is simply not interested? If it was all just spin by SISU to say that they weren't interested, they only have themselves to blame for it backfiring so badly.

And if you are going to go around as a seller making prospective offers to potential buyers, do you do it with companies that you distrust who have been trying to drive you out of business for the last two years?

Your view comes from a historical perspective and it's trying to re-write the reality and atmosphere of the time with the benefit of hindsight of where we are, and how screwed we are, now. Maybe if SISU hadn't weasled their way out of the earlier lease we'd have had a better chance of owning the ground or ACL?

Erm... I think you're forgetting one important fact. The council said on August 21st 2014, that time was needed rebuild trust before there could be discussions for ownership.

How much time, exactly, did they give for that trust to be rebuilt before they sold to Wasps? There's a fact, a really, really important one. Who's disregarding it here?

As for SISU's bid after the fact being too little too late, in what sense is that true. Financially it seems that the terms were similar, it's just that Higgs chose to go with Wasps.

And actually, if you want to get the best price for something, generally you make it available to the most bidders possible whether you like them or not, or whether you think they might be interested or not. Remind again when this happened, post return?

As for the lease being broken, indeed. If you can spot anywhere at all where I say that SISU have played any of this well, then show me. But it looks like you're the one casting the current argument in the frame of the past here.

The brutal truth is that the club were not offered the same kind of deal as that offered to Wasps, and that despite the Council's statement on our return there never was any intention to rebuild trust.

There's no attempt to rewrite history by me, almost all of my comments on this relate to what's gone on since the return to the Ricoh. But it seems there's a lot of effort being spent trying to muddy the fact that the council has acted in an entirely underhand manner in all of this.

lordsummerisle · Nov 17, 2014

Nonleagueherewecome said:
You're forgetting one very important fact: that even after returning to The Ricoch, SISU said that they were not interested in bidding for ACL or the stadium because they were building their own ground. At no point did they make a bid until the belated, too-little-too-late bid for the Higgs share (which in itself showed how badly their previous brinkmanship, even after returning to The Ricoh, had burnt them).

The "make the same offer available to SISU" concept is a red herring too and absolute nonsesnse as a concept. If SISU wanted it, why didn't they make a bid-instead of continually protesting that their eyes lay elsewhere? If someone else has made a bid, and SISU wish to make a bid, then bloody do it-there was nothing stopping them. Generally speaking, the seller doesn't go around contacting prospective buyers asking them if they'd like to make an offer! And why on earth would you offer a bid from one company to another company that as far as the best evidence available suggests, is simply not interested? If it was all just spin by SISU to say that they weren't interested, they only have themselves to blame for it backfiring so badly.

And if you are going to go around as a seller making prospective offers to potential buyers, do you do it with companies that you distrust who have been trying to drive you out of business for the last two years?

Your view comes from a historical perspective and it's trying to re-write the reality and atmosphere of the time with the benefit of hindsight of where we are, and how screwed we are, now. Maybe if SISU hadn't weasled their way out of the earlier lease we'd have had a better chance of owning the ground or ACL?

You could pretty much buy seven ACL's for the price of one Bigirimana.

A bargain!

Grendel · Nov 17, 2014

lordsummerisle said:
You could pretty much buy seven ACL's for the price of one Bigirimana.

A bargain!

To be fair I have some sympathy with Pressley when clubs like Yeovil can spend £35 million on one player.

torchomatic · Nov 17, 2014

And there's the thing. There is absolutely no doubt SISU have played this badly; messed up big time. However, there seem to be quite a few, who want to airbrush out any subsequent failures from ACL/CCC. And the one you pointed out was a biggie; stating "we need to rebuild trust before talking about a sale" publically, but dealing with someone else privately. It stinks.

No "side" comes out of this looking good. That includes Higgs and PWKH.

duffer said:
There's no attempt to rewrite history by me, almost all of my comments on this relate to what's gone on since the return to the Ricoh. But it seems there's a lot of effort being spent trying to muddy the fact that the council has acted in an entirely underhand manner in all of this.

fernandopartridge · Nov 17, 2014

lordsummerisle said:
Which does make me think that Wasps really haven't done their research if they're hoping for considerable support from this area.

Not exactly a hotbed of unstinting support here.

In either football code.

The only unstinting support is for the labour council

dadgad · Nov 17, 2014

fernandopartridge said:
Indeed. This is where I was getting to. Who would be interested in a club with such a small or fickle support base?

Conversely, the recent gate at home to Gillingham suggests a different interpretation.
The potential is there for a properly run club.

fernandopartridge · Nov 17, 2014

dadgad said:
Conversely, the recent gate at home to Gillingham suggests a different interpretation.
The potential is there for a properly run club.

No. It shows a one off occasion brought a big crowd. There is zero evidence of sustained good attendances. The evidence is of a decline.

The Lurker · Nov 17, 2014

fernandopartridge said:
No. It shows a one off occasion brought a big crowd. There is zero evidence of sustained good attendances. The evidence is of a decline.

yes and that is because of the owners?

average attendance in 2007 was 20,342, this season including the gillingham match is 10,378. So under sisu ownership we have lost half of our supporters.

italiahorse · Nov 17, 2014

fernandopartridge said:
No. It shows a one off occasion brought a big crowd. There is zero evidence of sustained good attendances. The evidence is of a decline.

Surprisingly people will not pay to watch rubbish.
Start winning and keep winning and the crowd will grow.

A lot of people will need wrestling away from other leisure activities.

torchomatic · Nov 17, 2014

And nearly 32K turned up for Crewe. Whilst SISU were in charge. So, we can easily double or triple our attendance if there's a big game on and that is regardless of how shit our owners are.

The Lurker said:
yes and that is because of the owners?

average attendance in 2007 was 20,342, this season including the gillingham match is 10,378. So under sisu ownership we have lost half of our supporters.

albatross · Nov 17, 2014

Reading some of these posts that vilify WASPS, CCC and ACL I cannot but shake my head in total disbelief. Pete Chambers recent comments claiming that Derek Robbins would be spinning in his grave and the responsibilities if the Higgs trust to the club were infantile. I am sure that if Mr Robbins were running our club then we would not have gone through any of this sorry episode. The club would have been run for CCFC not the owners.

When SISU arrived I really was heartened , I though well at least we have some business people in to run the club. Their objective is to unite the Club and ground whilst getting it into the premier league then taking a big profit by selling it on.

Sound governance of the football club would provide massive recurring revenue potential for future owners whilst ensuring Coventry City a sound and secure future.

How naive my initial viewpoint proved to be. All SISU brought was their money and a determination to get the RICOH for nothing as they were the only game in town. CCFC was held hostage as their bargaining chip knowing that most people on this forum have no choice but support them.

So then SISU try to distress ACL (and probably many other businesses in the area with the reduced footfall) , do not invest in the team to move it forward, move the club from Coventry to Northampton, not what you expect from the custodians of our club.

In 2008 they then begin to report the Option to purchase the shares in ACL as resident in Sky Blue Sports and Leisure the holding company that owns OTIUM. So as far back as 2008 SISU believed that they had separated the option to purchase the stadium from the football club. The belief that SISU had done this is beyond debate, that actual legal position of where the option lies has proved to be less clear. The intent was totally clear , the football club would not own ACL (ie the RICOH)

So in 2014 when we have refused to follow them in numbers to Northampton we make a high profile return to Coventry. Probably because they knew that WASPS were looking at the ROCOH. Sign a 4 year deal but still insist they want no long term part of the Ricoh.

So along come WASPs who after trying to build their own home in the south of England want to find a permanent base. They enquire about and empty sports stadium and ask if a deal can be done. The answer is Yes.

So what have WASPS effectively said about about our City.

There is a Fantastic Stadium, there is a fantastic City with a massive population demographic that has shown that it will turn out if there is something to watch. So not only do they pitch up with the appropriate commercial offer but bring a homeless Premiership Rugby side into the city as well. The equivalent of Liverpool or MAN U have looked at our city and said that’s where we want to make our home!

WASPS may be run by rich businessmen with offshore interests but hat they have done is demonstrated continual support for one of the most successful English Rugby Union teams in the professional era.

They have immediately unveiled a local sponsor, Immediately engage with the grass roots game in the area and Invited every club to meet with them. Since the days of Jimmy Hill when did Coventry City ever make such investments?

Are WASPS a business…. Yes but then so are CCFC and CRFC.

I for one will welcome them as they have brought to this city everything they are and will be.

Its not just about the money, its about them and the city of Coventry going forward.

Like Derek Robbins in the past They are showing the city of Coventry what we could be , not what we have become.

The Lurker · Nov 17, 2014

torchomatic said:
And nearly 32K turned up for Crewe. Whilst SISU were in charge. So, we can easily double or triple our attendance if there's a big game on and that is regardless of how shit our owners are.

you really are a sisu sympathiser..... what about the other 23 games of the season? were talking league games which happen 95% more regularly then cup games. sisu have ruined this club. why cant you see this?

torchomatic · Nov 17, 2014

No, I'm not. It's not really that difficult, is it? Whilst I agree the crowds are low and that is undoubtedly due to SISU, fans will quite happily turn up for big games. I'm not making that up, it's fact.

The Lurker said:
you really are a sisu sympathiser..... what about the other 23 games of the season? were talking league games which happen 95% more regularly then cup games. sisu have ruined this club. why cant you see this?

Grendel · Nov 17, 2014

It is worth pointing out that our anti sisu haven't put money in the coffers for years protester Ginetta did go to the Gillingham game.

Good job Emily Pankhurst wasn't bought so cheaply.

fernandopartridge · Nov 17, 2014

The Lurker said:
you really are a sisu sympathiser..... what about the other 23 games of the season? were talking league games which happen 95% more regularly then cup games. sisu have ruined this club. why cant you see this?

The average gate in 2003, just two years after relegation was 14813. The gates have been crap for years. The high averages 2006-2008 were owed to the Ricoh novelty factor.

fernandopartridge · Nov 17, 2014

italiahorse said:
Surprisingly people will not pay to watch rubbish.
Start winning and keep winning and the crowd will grow.

A lot of people will need wrestling away from other leisure activities.

EXACTLY. Well supported clubs do not have such fair-weather support. Thanks for backing my point up.

andyboy81 · Nov 17, 2014

Sorry, completely disagree with Sisu being the whole reason people dont go to the Ricoh.

Some "supporters" will use whatever excuse they possibly can to justify not going to watch the team at home now.

"I wont step foot in there whilst SISU are in charge" - oh look £5 tickets for the Crewe game... lets go!!
"I wont watch them in Northampton" - Oh we moved back to Coventry. Yea I'll go to that ONE game!!

Football attendances in the lower leagues attendances are going down and down especially this time of year because people don't get value for money these days. £20 - £25 per ticket to see a Shitside FC Vs AFC Shitside on a Tuesday night is becoming harder and harder to justify especially this time of year.

If you either lower the ticket Prices or have the team doing the job on the pitch, fans generally turn back up.

Hating SISU is just a convenient excuse

dadgad · Nov 17, 2014

Fans are customers, they have every right to do what they want, spend their money how they see fit.
The disenchantment surrounding ccfc is to do with things they are powerless to affect.
When their is approval for these "things" gates will improve.
It has been and will ever be so.

duffer · Nov 17, 2014

albatross said:
Reading some of these posts that vilify WASPS, CCC and ACL I cannot but shake my head in total disbelief. Pete Chambers recent comments claiming that Derek Robbins would be spinning in his grave and the responsibilities if the Higgs trust to the club were infantile. I am sure that if Mr Robbins were running our club then we would not have gone through any of this sorry episode. The club would have been run for CCFC not the owners.

When SISU arrived I really was heartened , I though well at least we have some business people in to run the club. Their objective is to unite the Club and ground whilst getting it into the premier league then taking a big profit by selling it on.

Sound governance of the football club would provide massive recurring revenue potential for future owners whilst ensuring Coventry City a sound and secure future.

How naive my initial viewpoint proved to be. All SISU brought was their money and a determination to get the RICOH for nothing as they were the only game in town. CCFC was held hostage as their bargaining chip knowing that most people on this forum have no choice but support them.

So then SISU try to distress ACL (and probably many other businesses in the area with the reduced footfall) , do not invest in the team to move it forward, move the club from Coventry to Northampton, not what you expect from the custodians of our club.

In 2008 they then begin to report the Option to purchase the shares in ACL as resident in Sky Blue Sports and Leisure the holding company that owns OTIUM. So as far back as 2008 SISU believed that they had separated the option to purchase the stadium from the football club. The belief that SISU had done this is beyond debate, that actual legal position of where the option lies has proved to be less clear. The intent was totally clear , the football club would not own ACL (ie the RICOH)

So in 2014 when we have refused to follow them in numbers to Northampton we make a high profile return to Coventry. Probably because they knew that WASPS were looking at the ROCOH. Sign a 4 year deal but still insist they want no long term part of the Ricoh.

So along come WASPs who after trying to build their own home in the south of England want to find a permanent base. They enquire about and empty sports stadium and ask if a deal can be done. The answer is Yes.

So what have WASPS effectively said about about our City.

There is a Fantastic Stadium, there is a fantastic City with a massive population demographic that has shown that it will turn out if there is something to watch. So not only do they pitch up with the appropriate commercial offer but bring a homeless Premiership Rugby side into the city as well. The equivalent of Liverpool or MAN U have looked at our city and said that’s where we want to make our home!

WASPS may be run by rich businessmen with offshore interests but hat they have done is demonstrated continual support for one of the most successful English Rugby Union teams in the professional era.

They have immediately unveiled a local sponsor, Immediately engage with the grass roots game in the area and Invited every club to meet with them. Since the days of Jimmy Hill when did Coventry City ever make such investments?

Are WASPS a business…. Yes but then so are CCFC and CRFC.

I for one will welcome them as they have brought to this city everything they are and will be.

Its not just about the money, its about them and the city of Coventry going forward.

Like Derek Robbins in the past They are showing the city of Coventry what we could be , not what we have become.

Erm... just to be clear then, it's OK for the owners of a sports team to demonstrate their unwavering support of it by relocating it to a completely different part of the country?

I assume then you'd have no problem if SISU, or indeed any new owners of CCFC, chose to support us in that way (and presumably the Wimbledon/MK Dons thing doesn't bother you either)?

As for the 'massive population demographic', there's so much interest in Wasps that they've already given away thousands of free tickets. And if you think Wasps are the Man U or Liverpool of premiership rugby, then politely you're about as well informed on this as the average councillor.

You're not the only one shaking their head in disbelief, let me tell you.

Deleted member 5849 · Nov 17, 2014

Some of the logistical leaps in here are... interesting.

albatross · Nov 17, 2014

OK DUFFER. Does it sit comfortably that you could simply move a team..... No it goes against my belief in supporting your home town team , my non attendance at Sixfields, the Trust Marches.

That said the simple WASPS franchise argument does not really hold water, history shows WASPS have been homeless for quite some time they have lost previous owners due to applications being turned down so Lets not kid ourselves that if they could have relocated in the London area without going bust they would have. They have been moving around for 10 or more years. They were never staying in Adams Park so they were always going to move.

SISU chose not to support us in that way at all totally different situation.

With regards to the demographic , I was at a big Rugby club in Birmingham recently ..... so many Tigers kits being worn as the "local Team"

with regards to success on the field

Heineken Cup
Winners 2006/07
Winners 2003/04

Guinness Premiership/Zurich/ Courage League
Champions 2007/08
Champions 2004/05
Champions 2003/04
Champions 2002/03
Champions 1996/97
Champions 1989/90

Anglo Welsh Powergen Cup
Winners 2005/06

Tetley's Bitter Cup
Winners 1999/2000
Winners 1998/99

I have been a supporter of CCFC since the early seventies, season ticket holder in the 80’s 90’s and 2000’s

I cannot continue to defend the people that believe that CCC / The Higgs or even the people of Coventry owe CCFC or their owners anything. They should be proud to represent our City and act with dignity and honesty and a duty of care to this once proud club. SISU have brought nothing but Shame on themselves with their shoddy behaviour. There are so many that seem to think that SISU should be given everything whilst they threaten to move / liquidate the team

But I suppose one of the main points that I have been making is that it now a done Deal. Lets look at it and try to take the positive out of it and move forward.

This is a big vote of confidence in this city.

CCFC have to choose between terminal decline or a positive action plan that makes the most of what is available. All that WASPS have could have been SISUs any time over the last 7 Years.

Deleted member 5849 · Nov 17, 2014

albatross said:
Lets not kid ourselves that if they could have relocated in the London area without going bust they would have.

Saracens managed it.

Richmond managed it too after going bust (after moving out of London).

stupot07 · Nov 17, 2014

Deleted member 5849 said:
Saracens managed it.

Richmond managed it too after going bust (after moving out of London).

It's not as if Upton Park wasn't available before it was sold to a property developer.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - so please excuse any spelling or grammar errors

Sick Boy · Nov 17, 2014

It seems like there is a touch of PR going on here. No ccfc fan would come out with something like that.

albatross · Nov 17, 2014

Saracens played at Watford for about 15 yrs and Richmond are languishing with Cov RFC in the Third Tier where it is almost impossible to return to the top flight after going bust.

Deleted member 5849 · Nov 17, 2014

albatross said:
Saracens played at Watford for about 15 yrs and Richmond are languishing with Cov RFC in the Third Tier where it is almost impossible to return to the top flight after going bust.

Saracens returned to the London area. Richmond returned to London after a move outside saw them go bust.

This is my point, both those clubs returned to London and are not bust. Absolute nonsense to suggest Wasps *had* to move to Coventry.

They *chose* to after failing dismally in their sporting and business aims.

albatross · Nov 17, 2014

Sick Boy said:
It seems like there is a touch of PR going on here. No ccfc fan would come out with something like that.

I take it that is aimed at me. Well I am a supporter of CCFC always have been always will be , I was there when we were relegated, last desperate games against Bristol City t home, Spurs away, losing to Sunderland 2-0 when they were bottom of the first division in the 70's, when Drinkel scored in the cup at QPR, at Villa Park when we lost and then when we won twice..at shelf united when we won 1-0 in 88/89 at swindon with Bellamy in the cup at stoke when we won 3-1 in the year they got promoted..

Yeah your right..... I'm no fan

A just don't believe in making excuses and bleating all the time.

albatross · Nov 17, 2014

Deleted member 5849 said:
Saracens returned to the London area. Richmond returned to London after a move outside saw them go bust.

This is my point, both those clubs returned to London and are not bust. Absolute nonsense to suggest Wasps *had* to move to Coventry.

They *chose* to after failing dismally in their sporting and business aims.

Agreed ,, but they chose to move here and for good or bad its done

Brighton Sky Blue · Nov 17, 2014

albatross said:
I take it that is aimed at me. Well I am a supporter of CCFC always have been always will be , I was there when we were relegated, last desperate games against Bristol City t home, Spurs away, losing to Sunderland 2-0 when they were bottom of the first division in the 70's, when Drinkel scored in the cup at QPR, at Villa Park when we lost and then when we won twice..at shelf united when we won 1-0 in 88/89 at swindon with Bellamy in the cup at stoke when we won 3-1 in the year they got promoted..

Yeah your right..... I'm no fan

A just don't believe in making excuses and bleating all the time.

What do you see as the logical next steps for the club? Pay for the privilege of fortnightly humiliation in a black stadium or move to pastures new at the cost of an 8 figure sum?

albatross · Nov 17, 2014

Brighton Sky Blue said:
What do you see as the logical next steps for the club? Pay for the privilege of fortnightly humiliation in a black stadium or move to pastures new at the cost of an 8 figure sum?

Well at this point its whatever is the cheapest option to move the club forward on the field. I would propose that the owners (for once) are pragmatic s do a deal that is good for the club. Cant see how we can afford to pay rent and fund a stadium.

The only business plan is to get the playing side right. A 20K crowd at an average of £20 will give you £7m in revenue over the season. We know that if they win people will go. Need to get to the Prem league ( now I'm dreaming) but thats a revenue of £70+m without tickets or sponsors . Now I know that revenue is not Profit but even if we pay £2m per year in rent we would still have in excess of £80m to run some sort of club.

Victory for the City of Coventry yesterday (21 Viewers)

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