Wasps going into admin & the impact on CCFC (8 Viewers)

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Sky Blue Harry H

Well-Known Member
My money is on Wasps surviving, escaping relegation and still being leaseholder at the CBS this time next year.
If that happens - they'll only be facing the same situation in a year (or two)'s time. Everybody will want cash up front from them - they will have burnt bridges with anybody they dump upon this time round. The biggest thing is, they really can't afford their current model, when crowds of 5k and 6k are the benchmark and the players *and it's a lot of them) earn more than they can afford.
 

duffer

Well-Known Member
Now, there's certainly a logic in economies of scale, getting the stadium used more than one day a week for one team. The problem in that respect has been that Wasps have been set up as primary user, whereas it needs to be flipped really. Isn't easy, and of course the teams have had difficulties, but Swansea, Hull, Huddersfield etc manage to run a Rugby team in the ground alongside the football team.

Another problem of course is Wasps are interlopers, and do you want to attach them to CCFC? A potential owner with balls / lack of empathy might well override that though, do some serious re-branding with Wasps to make them a Sky Blue Rugby team. Running Wasps as the extra could be a (relatively!) cheap way of getting more footfall / awareness for the arena and also indirectly for the football club. If they were secondary to the concerns of the football club you could reign in their sit or bust approach too, while also offering ticket bundles and offers across clubs to try and cross-pollinate.

Now... personally I don't want us near Wasps, I'd rather they withered and died. The above is also not without risk of course but... what isn't. It is however what a potential owner might consider, as ultimately the Wasps team part is a small add-on in comparison to the rest. If you then brought Cov Utd ladies back under the CCFC banner, you can start to do what Wasps made aspirations of doing, but maybe properly. As it's us of course, it'd all drag the football team down to oblivion as the rest fell!

It's a well thought out post NW, but I think you've highlighted one of the major issues; a lot of us would not want Wasps to be any part of CCFC (and vice versa with many of their fans I suspect).

The other point that I know I'm boring on about, is that Wasps do not make money. They got to 2nd in the top division, borrowed £35m, owned the stadium, and still could not turn a profit. There simply isn't money to be made in running a professional rugby team (especially one with such fickle support and that has already alienated a significant number of potential fans in the town). If I was a potential investor in CCFC I'd ask why I should hold the rest of the business back to subsidise a financially incontinent rugby team?
 

Flying Fokker

Well-Known Member
I'm sorry for those at risk too, but when some absolute cretin like John Daziel speaks like he is the man of the people, when in reality he has no idea how the people of the city feel, then I just ignore the dribble he posts.
Maybe he’d post drivel instead?
 

duffer

Well-Known Member
So not going into Admin then. More like buying time whilst they sort their shit out.

As far as the RFU are concerned, even a notice of administration is an insolvency event. That's how the bondholders will see it too, I think.

If there was a concrete plan for refinancing, then they'd never have taken this step. If they can avoid actually going into administration at this point I'd be surprised, but you never know. To me this looks like a final roll of the dice rather than a cunning plan.
 

chiefdave

Well-Known Member
Do we have any idea how much they owe HMRC? Presumably Richardson is skint, or at least unprepared to put anymore in, otherwise surely he'd cover that and avoid this situation.

Looking at RFP and how the phrasing of their statements has changed to restructuring it looks like Richardson is trying to get out but nobody wants to take it on.
 

Gynnsthetonic

Well-Known Member
Has Richardson lost any money though, didn't the bond money just pay him back what he originally put in in the first place
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
Has Richardson lost any money though, didn't the bond money just pay him back what he originally put in in the first place

He is owed £18m - he put it back in again
 

Flying Fokker

Well-Known Member
Does anyone think this could be something to do with the Alexander Stadium in Birmingham? I remember seeing a rumour Wasps were interested. Could admin and restarting again at a smaller venue be viable?


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Is it a smaller venue?
 

Sky Blue Harry H

Well-Known Member
Joking aside re: Mike Ashley. This is the sort of thing he likes to do/make money out of - buy distressed businesses. Problem is, he is only likely to be interested in the football club/stadium, and almost certainly won't stump up what SISU would want. Can't believe he would want Wasps in any kind of business case that I could envisage, unless it helped obtain the stadium. He would then force their playing budget down. Withh CCFC he may see the PL money as a tempting proposition. Still a very long shot that he'd go for it, though. Too complicated at the moment, and he tends to wait until all parties are at death's door (which maybe they are!)
 

oldskyblue58

CCFC Finance Director
My take on recent events is the move towards administration is:
a] To buy time for a last ditch attempt to refinance
b] Allow Wasps Holdings to appoint an administrator, if it comes to that course of action rather than HMRC or Bond holders

Regarding the value of the CBS arena - Pride park was reportedly sold for circa £20 - £22M. The CBS needs some maintenance work, but has the exhibition hall, etc, so might be worth £20 - £25M? However, given the distressed situation of Wasps Holdings would anyone pay that?

I would guess that rental payments are made in financial quarters, so potentially the club would have a schedule of payments for either April - June, then July - September or if they follow Otiums financial year from 30th June .....it would be July - September, etc.... Therefore, any agreement in a rescheduling of rent payments to Wasps following the cost of pitch could mean a reduced rent for the October - December payment. Hence, I think the club will get some value of it's funding of the pitch back. If Wasps go into administration at the end of September CCFC has an established agreement in place for reduced rent. I just hope Dave Body did his homework on this!

If this is not the case and the club becomes a creditor to Wasps holdings, then that would provide Joy Sepella with a lot of financial reports on the admin process. Not sure Richardson would like that idea, as she knows a lot about how to manipulate admin processes.

As for Richardson and becoming a director of ACL, then this will be another tactic to ensure he protects his assets.

not if wasps go into administration. The administrator is duty bound to recover all sums legally due to the company (the lease) any schemes of offset cannot be used because it might prejudice the rights of all creditors. I would think there was no security on any pitch payment given so that becomes an ordinary unsecured creditor and as i understand it any scheme of payment ceases once the administrator takes control.

The administrators reports are not going to be that immediate and only give limited information. If ccfc is a creditor it would be a small one in the scheme of things and have little influence
 

Sky Blue Harry H

Well-Known Member
I would think there was no security on any pitch payment given so that becomes an ordinary unsecured creditor and as i understand it any scheme of payment ceases once the administrator takes control

If Wasps enter into administration, then surely CCFC can renegotiate their rent with any new 'entity; that arises (be it Wasps 2, or another owner)
 

Sky Blue Harry H

Well-Known Member
Unless there is specific provision in the lease I doubt it

But surely the lease is between Wasps and CCC
The rent agreement would be separate (or is this a lease agreement too? If it is, and is between us and Wasps, and they go belly up, surely it is affected?)
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
But surely the lease is between Wasps and CCC
The rent agreement would be separate (or is this a lease agreement too? If it is, and is between us and Wasps, and they go belly up, surely it is affected?)

ours is a sub lease not rent
 

SkyblueDad

Well-Known Member
Can HMRC oppose this as or is it a watertight period that protects them from debt chasers?
All HMRC want is their money and will normally accept whatever plan Wasps or an administrator come up with, fold the business they get nowt.
This latest development from Wasp supremo Richardson will be no surprise he will be using manipulating the system for the benefit of the business and him, just like Sepalla did when were in admin.
Does it mean a buyer might come in for them or us or both, wishful thinking but you never know.
 

Nick

Administrator
Who's job is it to check bonds before they are put onto the market etc? Do they literally just chuck them on and leave it down to buyers to read small print?

Is it brokers who would be saying "buy these, they are secured on the ground?"

ie. IF the lease does move to the council and bondholders get nothing, who should have checked?
 

Nick

Administrator
He really is something else. Has an negative opinion on anything CCFC. I think he just loves the attention.


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I assume just holding on to the Wasps = goodies and SISU = baddies view he used to post selfies at Wasps games and pushing their PR.
 

SHUNT31

Well-Known Member
I assume just holding on to the Wasps = goodies and SISU = baddies view he used to post selfies at Wasps games and pushing their PR.

Very much so. The guy had a semi-permanent hard on with the pitch and Hyam fiasco. It’s like he wishes for CCFC’s downfall so he can say ‘told you so’. Absolute weapon.


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duffer

Well-Known Member
But surely the lease is between Wasps and CCC
The rent agreement would be separate (or is this a lease agreement too? If it is, and is between us and Wasps, and they go belly up, surely it is affected?)

It's a sub-lease, and as I understand it remains binding on whoever ends up with the head lease. So we'll stay on the same terms unless both parties want to renegotiate.

This is why the people flapping about us getting kicked out are mistaken, imho.
 

duffer

Well-Known Member
Who's job is it to check bonds before they are put onto the market etc? Do they literally just chuck them on and leave it down to buyers to read small print?

Is it brokers who would be saying "buy these, they are secured on the ground?"

ie. IF the lease does move to the council and bondholders get nothing, who should have checked?

Their was a detailed risk statement in the bond prospectus that covered the lease situation, and the possibility of it returning to the council if Wasps became insolvent. So basically it was the bondholder's responsibility to be aware of that I think.

In truth it sounds like if it went to court the bondholders would probably win; from what I've read, in these situations the courts tend to side with the people who've secured against the lease, rather than just have it return automatically to the freeholder. There's something in the ADVFN forum about this I think....
 
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