The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (254 Viewers)

[Astute]

No country in the EU is being governed by Germany. Each of the countries has the same rights and votes in elections.
An important + just fact, often heavily critized by "bigger" countries like France, Germany and the UK (!) that say they should have more votes due to their bigger population than Luxembourg + Estonia.
And that because they don't get through everything like they want...

So what have we got through that we want?

So are you saying that we have as much of a say as Germany?

 

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[martcov]

I liked the guy behind him giving the wanker sign and face palming!

It was fitting that in his 'moment in the sun' he blatantly lied again in saying, that no-one there had had a proper job in their life. He couldn't possibly know that and it was fact checked that nearly every other speaker on that day had had a job or a business. The wanker sign was an understatement.

 

[mrtrench]

Tbf no-one knows if the long term aim will be achieved, but I have seen the improvements and the increase of wealth for at least some regions of these poorer countries. This happened relatively quickly and these people buy our goods. Take beer and cider for example. The best selection of English craft beers and cider in a normal super market that I have seen, is in Estonia. When you consider the pro capita income it is amazing. The pro capita income pre EU was too low to afford such things. Not everything is bad in the EU - could be better of course.

I agree - not all bad; fantastic objectives. I used to live in Warsaw just after the wall came down. We went back a few years ago and the change was incredible. It's really down to shades of grey on this decision.

 

[martcov]

So what have we got through that we want?

So are you saying that we have as much of a say as Germany?

Germany's power base is the Euro where over 60% of the currency was the DM. We are not in the Euro and have no say there. In the EU we do have a say, but we do cannot dictate any more than Germany can. I don't know what we have got through that we wanted, but I am sure that some points were renegotiated by Thatcher, Blair and Cameron. There 80000 pages of EU laws/ regulations and I cannot believe that they were all written by Germans.

 

[Sick Boy]

And I thoroughly enjoyed seeing Farage have his moment in the sun in Brussels yesterday.

Good luck to him.

He reminded me of a mixture of Alan Partridge and Father Ted.

 

[Astute]

There is obviously plenty wrong, but not everything is wrong. The biggest problem is getting 28 countries with widely different views to act together. Despite that, we need to act together as a block in present day circumstances. A dilemma which won't be solved by brexit.

The weaker countries in the Euro were weak before the Euro. Greece was a financial disaster and should never have been accepted. Italy was constantly devaluing and for years constantly having government crisis.

Most of Spain and Portugal were poor pre EU.

Free movement of labour has helped our Economy and given poorer people the chance to work elsewhere for more money than at home.

To say we are governed by Germany is bending the truth to fit your POV. We were a counterbalance , or are you classing us alongside the likes of Estonia? We have a powerful Economy and large population. We should be up there in the EU alongside Germany bringing Europe together.

1, I never said everything was wrong. But thereare major problems. And they never do anything about them. They just bring more countries in that are not prepared for what will happen. And it makes the problems worse.

2, What you have said here is agreeing with what I am saying. They sign up other countries that are already having problems. Then they sign up to the Euro. They then lose any ability to value their currency to their needs. This makes their problems worse.

3, Free movement of labour then makes things worse for the countries they are leaving. Who is going to pay for the older population who stay behind? So these countries need more bailouts. This brings in more austerity. So more leave. It becomes a vicious circle.

4, Are you trying to say that we have as much of a say as Germany? It isn't my POV. I understand what is going on. If we had much of a say we wouldn't be in the position we are now. Yes we should be there with Germany making the rules and bringing Europe together. But we are not.

 

[Astute]

I liked the guy behind him giving the wanker sign and face palming!

It shows that Farage isn't the only dickhead there.

 

[Astute]

Tbf no-one knows if the long term aim will be achieved, but I have seen the improvements and the increase of wealth for at least some regions of these poorer countries. This happened relatively quickly and these people buy our goods. Take beer and cider for example. The best selection of English craft beers and cider in a normal super market that I have seen, is in Estonia. When you consider the pro capita income it is amazing. The pro capita income pre EU was too low to afford such things. Not everything is bad in the EU - could be better of course.

Should be much better. It is the minority that are better off whilst the majority suffer in a lot of the countries.

 

[Terry Gibson's perm]

1, I never said everything was wrong. But thereare major problems. And they never do anything about them. They just bring more countries in that are not prepared for what will happen. And it makes the problems worse.

2, What you have said here is agreeing with what I am saying. They sign up other countries that are already having problems. Then they sign up to the Euro. They then lose any ability to value their currency to their needs. This makes their problems worse.

3, Free movement of labour then makes things worse for the countries they are leaving. Who is going to pay for the older population who stay behind? So these countries need more bailouts. This brings in more austerity. So more leave. It becomes a vicious circle.

4, Are you trying to say that we have as much of a say as Germany? It isn't my POV. I understand what is going on. If we had much of a say we wouldn't be in the position we are now. Yes we should be there with Germany making the rules and bringing Europe together. But we are not.

We seem to be behind Luxembourg in the decision making. Without wishing yo sound to selfish I don't care if the people of Estonia are better off my only concern is the people here

 

[Kingokings204]

It was fitting that in his 'moment in the sun' he blatantly lied again in saying, that no-one there had had a proper job in their life. He couldn't possibly know that and it was fact checked that nearly every other speaker on that day had had a job or a business. The wanker sign was an understatement.

He has faced dogs abuse and name calling on a much worse level that what he said. He had one last speech to make, knowing farage it was always going to be controversial. He gave back as much as he received. The whole place is full of kids. Look at that ver hofstadt bloke. Biggest dickhead I've ever seen on my screen I can tell you. Just a lunatic. And Mr Schulz is anti British to his very fingertips and apparently we are meant to obey him as he is president of the parliament. So you can just have it one way.

As for the euro I've been reading the previous posts. Look the idea to it was to create a European superstate. You eliminate nation states to form a big one. You give every one the same currency and no internal borders and therefore we are one big happy nation. The problem is no where on earth does a continent do this. It doesn't work. Especially in Europe which is so diverse of language and culture. A one size fits all approach may have been noble and a good idea at the time but it's out dated and has been proved not to work now. Britain leaving won't be the last.

Like someone said in an earlier post either the north of Europe struggles or the south does now we know the south is in real trouble but to rectify that you have to devalue the euro and lower interest rates which would massively hurt German and France. Either way you can't win.

And the biggest fear is no one has ever given consent for it. The euro was forced upon people and please please please look at when Greece joined the euro and who made them join and I'm sure you will agree it was a big big joke. Never should of joined and now they are paying the price. It will end very badly for Greece.

 

[martcov]

We seem to be behind Luxembourg in the decision making. Without wishing yo sound to selfish I don't care if the people of Estonia are better off my only concern is the people here

That is why we are out. But that is very shortsighted as we all live in the same region and what is good for the poorer countries is indirectly good for us.

 

[martcov]

He has faced dogs abuse and name calling on a much worse level that what he said. He had one last speech to make, knowing farage it was always going to be controversial. He gave back as much as he received. The whole place is full of kids. Look at that ver hofstadt bloke. Biggest dickhead I've ever seen on my screen I can tell you. Just a lunatic. And Mr Schulz is anti British to his very fingertips and apparently we are meant to obey him as he is president of the parliament. So you can just have it one way.

As for the euro I've been reading the previous posts. Look the idea to it was to create a European superstate. You eliminate nation states to form a big one. You give every one the same currency and no internal borders and therefore we are one big happy nation. The problem is no where on earth does a continent do this. It doesn't work. Especially in Europe which is so diverse of language and culture. A one size fits all approach may have been noble and a good idea at the time but it's out dated and has been proved not to work now. Britain leaving won't be the last.

Like someone said in an earlier post either the north of Europe struggles or the south does now we know the south is in real trouble but to rectify that you have to devalue the euro and lower interest rates which would massively hurt German and France. Either way you can't win.

And the biggest fear is no one has ever given consent for it. The euro was forced upon people and please please please look at when Greece joined the euro and who made them join and I'm sure you will agree it was a big big joke. Never should of joined and now they are paying the price. It will end very badly for Greece.

I have already said that Greece should never have been accepted into the Euro and yes, it was Theo Waigel who told them how to fiddle the books to get in.

 

[martcov]

Should be much better. It is the minority that are better off whilst the majority suffer in a lot of the countries.

I don't know how you judge that. What are the average wage statistics? The old or people living in the country are usually the ones who lose out and the young benefit. The young being the future - so although the old may be losing now, the future should get better. Even in East Germany ( the strongest ex communist economy ), the old and people and those living in the country are disadvantaged against people living in the cities of Dresden and Leipzig. The cities are getting a net migration inwards, whilst country regions have an ageing declining population, but this is the same in old EU and non EU countries. I don't think the old are as badly off as in the pre EU days.

 

[skybluetony176]

Found these regarding Norway's contributions to the EU in return for EEA membership which in return gives them entrance into the common market, they also have to allow free movement of people between the EU and themselves.

http://www.eu-norway.org/eu/Financial-contribution/#.V3TkCtQrLGg

http://openeurope.org.uk/today/blog/what-would-a-norway-style-relationship-with-the-eu-entail/

The more you find out about what we might have to do to stay in the common market the more you have to ask where's the value in leaving the EU.

 

[Astute]

I don't know how you judge that. What are the average wage statistics? The old or people living in the country are usually the ones who lose out and the young benefit. The young being the future - so although the old may be losing now, the future should get better. Even in East Germany ( the strongest ex communist economy ), the old and people and those living in the country are disadvantaged against people living in the cities of Dresden and Leipzig. The cities are getting a net migration inwards, whilst country regions have an ageing declining population, but this is the same in old EU and non EU countries. I don't think the old are as badly off as in the pre EU days.

A lot of countries are more family orientated than we are. They look after their old. But now the younger generation are leaving who is left to look after them?

 

[Astute]

Found these regarding Norway's contributions to the EU in return for EEA membership which in return gives them entrance into the common market, they also have to allow free movement of people between the EU and themselves.

http://www.eu-norway.org/eu/Financial-contribution/#.V3TkCtQrLGg

http://openeurope.org.uk/today/blog/what-would-a-norway-style-relationship-with-the-eu-entail/

The more you find out about what we might have to do to stay in the common market the more you have to ask where's the value in leaving the EU.

It isn't just how things are now. It is also the direction it is going in. And things are getting gradually worse.

They are giving us the choice. They have said that we won't get a better deal. It is in or out. But I don't believe them. It seems more like scare tactics to keep us in.

I am starting to think that Gove will become the next PM. He started it so he can finish it. And I would prefer to have him negotiate than Boris. He is the best out of a bad bunch.

 

[mrtrench]

Found these regarding Norway's contributions to the EU in return for EEA membership which in return gives them entrance into the common market, they also have to allow free movement of people between the EU and themselves.

http://www.eu-norway.org/eu/Financial-contribution/#.V3TkCtQrLGg

http://openeurope.org.uk/today/blog/what-would-a-norway-style-relationship-with-the-eu-entail/

The more you find out about what we might have to do to stay in the common market the more you have to ask where's the value in leaving the EU.

Then don't stay. Negotiate a trade deal instead.

 

[Kingokings204]

I actually quite like Liam fox. Experienced campaigner and understands the Scotland scenario very well being Scottish. Strong and a brexit man. He believes in this country.

Best of a best bunch. May was good this morning on TV I must say however as she was a closet brexiteer.

 

[Johnnythespider]

It isn't just how things are now. It is also the direction it is going in. And things are getting gradually worse.

They are giving us the choice. They have said that we won't get a better deal. It is in or out. But I don't believe them. It seems more like scare tactics to keep us in.

I am starting to think that Gove will become the next PM. He started it so he can finish it. And I would prefer to have him negotiate than Boris. He is the best out of a bad bunch.

I don't think there is a teacher in the land that would agree with you about Gove.

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[skybluetony176]

Then don't stay. Negotiate a trade deal instead.

Its not that simple. Leaving the common market will kill this country in a way that will take decades to recover from. We'll lose a big section of the international banking business that London is built on for starters because they will lose something called passporting which allows them to deal with the common market from London if we're out the EU. The common market is important, that's why you have Norway, Iceland and Lichtenstein in on this agreement, Switzerland in on a different agreement and even Canada are negotiating entrance at some level into it.

 

[eastwoodsdustman]

I don't think there is a teacher in the land that would agree with you about Gove.

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There isn't a teacher in the land who would vote Tory let alone support Gove.

As for Liam Fox. He'd be the one I'd like to see take the job.

 

[armybike]

Johnson has pulled out of leadership race then!

 

[Macca]

Johnson has pulled out of leadership race then!

Yes scare story number 1 blown out of the water

 

[eastwoodsdustman]

Yes scare story number 110 blown out of the water

Corrected for you.

 

[Ashdown]

I want to see Liam Fox take it on and being Scottish might just galvanise many North of the Border to see through Jimmy Krankie and her destructive single mindedness ?!
I read these descriptions on here of the distribution of the EU money and how it is spreading the wealth...............can someone then explain how in 2015 Poland paid in 4 billion Euros and received over 17 billion euros in grants, yet still there are 800,000 Poles in the UK alone and many elsewhere across Europe ?!
I'm sure it's nothing to do with our Schools, transport infrastructure, welfare state and free medical care is it ??

 

[Monners]

Gove or May for PM - God help us.

 

[CCFC Germany]

So are you saying that we have as much of a say as Germany?

Yes. Base on rights in the EU, ways of taking part, votes, bringing on bills, you do have. Well, had...

No country in the EU had as much special rulinges and regulations bent their way as the UK. So you got through pretty much of it.

 

[lifeskyblue]

I think may will beat gove to the job....the others just hoping for a 'big' job in next cabinet.
I was hoping boris would stand and create more dissent and mistrust (but not on a par with labour) but someone clearly got to him.
As for labour...have they got anyone who is electable as a prime minister? I can't think of anyone....Watson and benn the only possibles. I wonder if they will parachute someone into batley and Spen such as David milliband. Mind you that won't reunite the party but might be electable as a pm.


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[clint van damme]

If we had a second referendum, I would change my original vote to a leave vote... as a protest at having another go because we didn't get the result we wanted the first time. imo, this would shit all over the idea we are a democratic country, and set a bad precedence for any future vote we have on any other subject.

yep. I voted stay.
I believe that brexit will be a disaster that we won't feel the full consequences of for a couple of years, (not because I have any great faith in the institutions of the EU but because I believe the worst elements of the conservative party will be left unchecked to reek havoc).

But leave was the outcome so that should be it now. A mockery of democracy to have a 2nd vote.

However, I would not be in the least but surprised if the tories don't trigger article 50, the longer it goes without it happening the less likely it is to happen.

 

[martcov]

Johnson has pulled out of leadership race then!

Yes, not surprised. He would not want to be the one to trigger article 50, and if things looked bad, he couldn't exactly make a U turn after all the BS he used to get us out.

 

[Monners]

Johnson has pulled out of leadership race then!

I wished his old man had pulled his Johnson out in time 50 odd years ago!

 

[RegTheDonk]

I actually quite like Liam fox. Experienced campaigner and understands the Scotland scenario very well being Scottish. Strong and a brexit man. He believes in this country.

Best of a best bunch. May was good this morning on TV I must say however as she was a closet brexiteer.

Think Fox looks the less volatile and would be my preference - though Crabb is supposed to have "working class roots".
May would certainly bat hard in any negotiations, in fact she was trumping herself up about how she's taking on America and the Police Federation - I'd rather she had a reputation for championing the average man than battering more people than a SISU lawyer.

 

[stupot07]

Think Fox looks the less volatile and would be my preference - though Crabb is supposed to have "working class roots".
May would certainly bat hard in any negotiations, in fact she was trumping herself up about how she's taking on America and the Police Federation - I'd rather she had a reputation for championing the average man than battering more people than a SISU lawyer.

Crabb thinks homosexuality is an illness and can be cured.....

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[Monners]

Crabb thinks homosexuality is an illness and can be cured.....

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Is that right? They really are an odd bunch

 

[Liquid Gold]

If you're talking about Liam Fox for leadership you need to use his full name which is: disgraced former defence secretary, Dr Liam Fox