The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (26 Viewers)

[Kingokings204]

look at the rabble at the helm of brexit, I wouldn't trust them to organise a kids birthday party. Don't know why people expected this to be anything but a farce.

I agree but most of them want to remain. TM last week when asked on LBC said she wouldn't vote leave. So we have a 80% cabinet and a PM who don't believe in Brexit. It's certainly not strong and stable.

I repeat it's like having a manager in charge who believes you are already relegated.

 

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[Sick Boy]

Again if people want a say vince cable will be Pm if they don't then they are happy to let the government make the decision on their behalf.

That's democracy

I am surprised you didn't remind Astute of this a little earlier about us joining the EU.

 

[Sick Boy]

I agree but most of them want to remain. TM last week when asked on LBC said she wouldn't vote leave. So we have a 80% cabinet and a PM who don't believe in Brexit. It's certainly not strong and stable.

I repeat it's like having a manager in charge who believes you are already relegated.

Who else is there? Johnson? Gove? Rees Mogg? It would be even worse than it already is now.

 

[Kingokings204]

Who else is there? Johnson? Gove? Rees Mogg? It would be even worse than it already is now.

At least those people quoted believe in the process. I repeat would Johnson have become Pm if remain of won? No chance. I don't understand how May got the job. She talked a good game. "Brexit means brexit" etc

I am troubled because the EU don't respect referendums and in the last 12 years it ignored big referendums in Denmark, Netherlands and our friends in Ireland in 2008 which was disgusting. I fear they won't respect our referendum also so why did we all bother? What about all those millions of people who voted for change? Voted when they have never voted before in their lives?

 

[Sick Boy]

At least those people quoted believe in the process. I repeat would Johnson have become Pm if remain of won? No chance. I don't understand how May got the job. She talked a good game. "Brexit means brexit" etc

I am troubled because the EU don't respect referendums and in the last 12 years it ignored big referendums in Denmark, Netherlands and our friends in Ireland in 2008 which was disgusting. I fear they won't respect our referendum also so why did we all bother? What about all those millions of people who voted for change? Voted when they have never voted before in their lives?

I think it had something to do with the lies peddled by Johnson in the leave campaign.

During the campaign you had the leave lot banging on about being like Norway and Switzerland, yet all of a sudden they are no longer going on about it now. Why is that?

If the EU didn't respect it, it wouldn't acknowledge it, yet alone negotiate.

Do you mean like the brains of Barnsley?

 

[clint van damme]

At least those people quoted believe in the process. I repeat would Johnson have become Pm if remain of won? No chance. I don't understand how May got the job. She talked a good game. "Brexit means brexit" etc

I am troubled because the EU don't respect referendums and in the last 12 years it ignored big referendums in Denmark, Netherlands and our friends in Ireland in 2008 which was disgusting. I fear they won't respect our referendum also so why did we all bother? What about all those millions of people who voted for change? Voted when they have never voted before in their lives?

I don't know about Denmark and the Netherlands but it wasn't the EU who didn't respect the Irish referendum it was the Irish government.
Same with us, we've triggered article 50, if we don't leave now it will be nothing to do with the EU,

 

[skybluetony176]

At least those people quoted believe in the process. I repeat would Johnson have become Pm if remain of won? No chance. I don't understand how May got the job. She talked a good game. "Brexit means brexit" etc

I am troubled because the EU don't respect referendums and in the last 12 years it ignored big referendums in Denmark, Netherlands and our friends in Ireland in 2008 which was disgusting. I fear they won't respect our referendum also so why did we all bother? What about all those millions of people who voted for change? Voted when they have never voted before in their lives?

Don’t know anything about the Netherlands but how did they ignore Denmark? They offered Denmark exceptions to the Marstrict treaty which Denmark accepted by way of a referendum. Sounds like they listened rather than ignored and the Danes chose based on what they offered after listening. It wasn’t a case of Danes voting until they got the right answer, they had a second referendum based on the Edinburgh agreement which came after the first referendum.

 

[martcov]

And how unfair is that? If we voted to remain would we of leaved?

No, because leaving is a risky business with no known tangible benefits.

 

[martcov]

I agree but most of them want to remain. TM last week when asked on LBC said she wouldn't vote leave. So we have a 80% cabinet and a PM who don't believe in Brexit. It's certainly not strong and stable.

I repeat it's like having a manager in charge who believes you are already relegated.

Plus 47% against 44% now think leaving is a mistake. It seems there is no clear mandate to leave, just the narrow result of an advisory referendum.

 

[clint van damme]

Plus 47% against 44% now think leaving is a mistake. It seems there is no clear mandate to leave, just the narrow result of an advisory referendum.

tin foil hat time but all this Brexit controversy is doing a great job of burying the latest crime figures that came out this week.

 

[Sick Boy]

tin foil hat time but all this Brexit controversy is doing a great job of burying the latest crime figures that came out this week.

I guess that's what happens when you have a government with little regard for public spending. No doubt it's the fault of migrants though.

 

[Kingokings204]

No, because leaving is a risky business with no known tangible benefits.

No not unfair course not. Ok you vote to remain your side wins 52-48 and then we end up leaving the EU. Honestly I give up.

 

[Kingokings204]

I don't know about Denmark and the Netherlands but it wasn't the EU who didn't respect the Irish referendum it was the Irish government.
Same with us, we've triggered article 50, if we don't leave now it will be nothing to do with the EU,

Well we are leaving. We will leave but my massive fear is it will be in name only and it's the same posters on here moaning about lack of progress when the government and a majority of remain MPs don't want us to leave. Go figure.

 

[Sick Boy]

Well we are leaving. We will leave but my massive fear is it will be in name only and it's the same posters on here moaning about lack of progress when the government and a majority of remain MPs don't want us to leave. Go figure.

When it fails to deliver all of the promises that were made, it's always going to be someone else's fault. It'll either be the non decent people who didn't vote for it, or the fat and lazy business people.

Leaving could actually settle the issue once and for all and my generation ends up taking us back in with the country much more aware of the benefits.

 

[Ashdown]

Plus 47% against 44% now think leaving is a mistake. It seems there is no clear mandate to leave, just the narrow result of an advisory referendum.

Those percentages were being banded around for weeks before the actual vote and they were all proven to be a load of propaganda, just like all the other dreadful threats and fear driven politics bullshit from Remain.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Again if people want a say vince cable will be Pm if they don't then they are happy to let the government make the decision on their behalf.

That's democracy

So we should have let Cameron tell us we were staying in then.

That's democracy.

 

[Sick Boy]

Those percentages were being banded around for weeks before the actual vote and they were all proven to be a load of propaganda, just like all the other dreadful threats and fear driven politics bullshit from Remain.

Don't forget the threats and fear driven bullshit from leave too.

 

[Kingokings204]

When it fails to deliver all of the promises that were made, it's always going to be someone else's fault. It'll either be the non decent people who didn't vote for it, or the fat and lazy business people.

Leaving could actually settle the issue once and for all and my generation ends up taking us back in with the country much more aware of the benefits.

That's exactly what I'm saying. It isn't even being given a chance though has it? The EU don't want us to leave, the political class in our country (all parties) don't want us to leave. The big banks and big business don't want us to leave. The process is being delayed and threatened at every stage. We even have a remain PM for goodness sake.

Tell me what chance us leave voters have had to realize our vote?

 

[Sick Boy]

That's exactly what I'm saying. It isn't even being given a chance though has it? The EU don't want us to leave, the political class in our country (all parties) don't want us to leave. The big banks and big business don't want us to leave. The process is being delayed and threatened at every stage. We even have a remain PM for goodness sake.

Tell me what chance us leave voters have had to realize our vote?

Perhaps if had really been such a big issue, we would have had a genuine leave party in charge, like UKIP?

 

[CCFCSteve]

Perhaps if had really been such a big issue, we would have had a genuine leave party in charge, like UKIP?

Or a genuine remain party such as the lib dems who campaigned on this point yet still ended up with a fraction of the national vote

 

[Sick Boy]

Or a genuine remain party such as the lib dems who campaigned on this point yet still ended up with a fraction of the national vote

Fair point. I believe that the swing towards Labour was down to voters being uncomfortable with May's approach to Brexit and her thirst for power around that time. It has been said that remain voters went for Labour based on their softer approach to Brexit.

 

[martcov]

No not unfair course not. Ok you vote to remain your side wins 52-48 and then we end up leaving the EU. Honestly I give up.

You just said that the PM and 80% of the cabinet ( plus most MPs ) are against Brexit. The only thing for it is a narrow majority on the day for an advisory referendum. Opinion fluctuates almost daily. It is not exactly a decisive mandate to embark on an adventure with.

 

[martcov]

That's exactly what I'm saying. It isn't even being given a chance though has it? The EU don't want us to leave, the political class in our country (all parties) don't want us to leave. The big banks and big business don't want us to leave. The process is being delayed and threatened at every stage. We even have a remain PM for goodness sake.

Tell me what chance us leave voters have had to realize our vote?

Hopefully none. You seem to discount that we have a democratically elected parliament whose job is to decide on such issues after debate. Unfortunately Cameron gave into a minority of MPs and held an advisory referendum which came out almost 50:50 and therefore left us as a divided electorate on a crucial decision. If an advisory referendum is a mandate at all, because of the split result it is not a decisive one.

 

[martcov]

Well we are leaving. We will leave but my massive fear is it will be in name only and it's the same posters on here moaning about lack of progress when the government and a majority of remain MPs don't want us to leave. Go figure.

I am not leaving. I have figured, there isn’t a consensus on what Brexit is. The government is divided and the electorate is divided. It is a massive cock up and that’s why progress is slow.

 

[martcov]

Those percentages were being banded around for weeks before the actual vote and they were all proven to be a load of propaganda, just like all the other dreadful threats and fear driven politics bullshit from Remain.

They are complied from a collection of different polls and are not propaganda, but contain a margin of error. What they do show is that the electorate is divided roughly 50:50 with a swing of a few percent each way depending on what is happening in the country. This is the worst result you could have for a referendum on such a game changer.

 

[CCFCSteve]

Fair point. I believe that the swing towards Labour was down to voters being uncomfortable with May's approach to Brexit and her thirst for power around that time. It has been said that remain voters went for Labour based on their softer approach to Brexit.

Agreed. Corbyn has played a blinder on Europe. During the campaign he never really provided any clarity on what he would do other than 'respect the referundum result'. I still don't really know where he/Labour stands on it now (and don't get me wrong I also appreciate there's massive divisions in the Consevative party) other than saying they would do everything possible to have access to single market, starmer is probably even less realistic by talking about semi remaining in the customs union (we know the EU would expect freedom of movement in exchange and this is a major sticking point for the public and therefore in my view unfeasible/unrealistic).

In a sense I prefer the Lib Dems stance, however undemoncractic it is, of not accepting the public vote and suggesting they would go for another referendum

We are where we are though and I just want the government to get the best deal possible for the country i.e. paying what is due and fair to the EU (not anything more), maintaining a close relationship with the EU on trade and security (we are supposed to be allies not the enemy), making sure EU nationals here and Uk nationals abroad are looked after and having the ability to agree trade deals with non EU nations to maintain our competitiveness abroad.

I don't think any of the above is too much to ask for.

 

[Sick Boy]

Agreed. Corbyn has played a blinder on Europe. During the campaign he never really provided any clarity on what he would do other than 'respect the referundum result'. I still don't really know where he/Labour stands on it now (and don't get me wrong I also appreciate there's massive divisions in the Consevative party) other than saying they would do everything possible to have access to single market, starmer is probably even less realistic by talking about semi remaining in the customs union (we know the EU would expect freedom of movement in exchange and this is a major sticking point for the public and therefore in my view unfeasible/unrealistic).

In a sense I prefer the Lib Dems stance, however undemoncractic it is, of not accepting the public vote and suggesting they would go for another referendum

We are where we are though and I just want the government to get the best deal possible for the country i.e. paying what is due and fair to the EU (not anything more), maintaining a close relationship with the EU on trade and security (we are supposed to be allies not the enemy), making sure EU nationals here and Uk nationals abroad are looked after and having the ability to agree trade deals with non EU nations to maintain our competitiveness abroad.

I don't think any of the above is too much to ask for.

A fair and refreshing post!

 

[CCFCSteve]

They are complied from a collection of different polls and are not propaganda, but contain a margin of error. What they do show is that the electorate is divided roughly 50:50 with a swing of a few percent each way depending on what is happening in the country. This is the worst result you could have for a referendum on such a game changer.

I agree with this 100% and it's what frustrates me so much about the EU and why I was genuinely torn on the day of the referendum. In respect of many countries across Europe the view on the EU is very much split 50/50 so the outcome of a referendum will therefore be dependent on how people feel on the day; current living standards, the economy, and as bizarre as it sounds probably even what the weather is like etc. The vote could swing either way.

Why not then try to address the concerns of those who would want to leave the EU (not just here but abroad). Why not just offer Cameron something pre referendum i.e. an ability to cap EU migrants at a certain level before they have to follow non EU visa application process (I know I know it's one of the 'four freedoms' - not sure it's in any of their trade agreements with non EU countries though !). Let's be honest we all know our border control is that shit any cap would probably be irrelevant anyway ! something like this would have swung the vote to remain.

However, they don't want to listen or veer away from their plan as to how they believe the EU should work, whether the European public agree or not ! unfortnately that's leading to a continued rise of extremist parties across Europe which I honestly believe is far more worrying that our out vote !

 

[martcov]

I agree with this 100% and it's what frustrates me so much about the EU and why I was genuinely torn on the day of the referendum. In respect of many countries across Europe the view on the EU is very much split 50/50 so the outcome of a referendum will therefore be dependent on how people feel on the day; current living standards, the economy, and as bizarre as it sounds probably even what the weather is like etc. The vote could swing either way.

Why not then try to address the concerns of those who would want to leave the EU (not just here but abroad). Why not just offer Cameron something pre referendum i.e. an ability to cap EU migrants at a certain level before they have to follow non EU visa application process (I know I know it's one of the 'four freedoms' - not sure it's in any of their trade agreements with non EU countries though !). Let's be honest we all know our border control is that shit any cap would probably be irrelevant anyway ! something like this would have swung the vote to remain.

However, they don't want to listen or veer away from their plan as to how they believe the EU should work, whether the European public agree or not ! unfortnately that's leading to a continued rise of extremist parties across Europe which I honestly believe is far more worrying that our out vote !

I think you misjudge how other countries feel about freedom of movement. People move around more and millions cross borders to work or trade every day. Living on an island you don’t see this as normal. With land borders it is and an end to free movement would mean bringing back borders which most people don’t want. Possible exception is blocking the flow of refugees on certain borders.

 

[CCFCSteve]

I think you misjudge how other countries feel about freedom of movement. People move around more and millions cross borders to work or trade every day. Living on an island you don’t see this as normal. With land borders it is and an end to free movement would mean bringing back borders which most people don’t want. Possible exception is blocking the flow of refugees on certain borders.

I haven't got a problem with freedom of movement...to an extent. I think a country has got to have the final decision depending on their needs and their ability to absorb numbers.

Housing is a major hot topic at the moment. But how do you improve the situation for the younger generation (many of whom want to obviously remain in the EU) if you have net migration of 300k ? What happens if next year it was 500k ? We don't live in utopian society so tough decisions have to be made at some point.

Also, I've always wondered, why should an unskilled or semi skilled worker from the EU have more of a right to live/work in this country than say a doctor, nurse or teacher from Australia or the US ?

 

[Grendel]

Fair point. I believe that the swing towards Labour was down to voters being uncomfortable with May's approach to Brexit and her thirst for power around that time. It has been said that remain voters went for Labour based on their softer approach to Brexit.

That's not true either is it? What happened was that many ukip voters switched to labour. May increased the Tory share of the vote!

 

[Grendel]

They are complied from a collection of different polls and are not propaganda, but contain a margin of error. What they do show is that the electorate is divided roughly 50:50 with a swing of a few percent each way depending on what is happening in the country. This is the worst result you could have for a referendum on such a game changer.

No they don't as 30% consistently say they are don't know or nit interested.

 

[martcov]

No they don't as 30% consistently say they are don't know or nit interested.

No. Not on the compilation that I was quoting. It has been consistently inside a couple of percentage points over 6 months. More recently a nudge in favour of remain. Don’t knows just over 10% the whole time. Question was „with hindsight“ how would you have voted?

 

[Sick Boy]

That's not true either is it? What happened was that many ukip voters switched to labour. May increased the Tory share of the vote!

What's this based on? How do you know the Tory's share wasn't due to UKIP voters voting Tory?

As I've said before, I think the likes of the Mail went to far and ended up putting a lot of people off voting Tory.

 

[martcov]

I haven't got a problem with freedom of movement...to an extent. I think a country has got to have the final decision depending on their needs and their ability to absorb numbers.

Housing is a major hot topic at the moment. But how do you improve the situation for the younger generation (many of whom want to obviously remain in the EU) if you have net migration of 300k ? What happens if next year it was 500k ? We don't live in utopian society so tough decisions have to be made at some point.

Also, I've always wondered, why should an unskilled or semi skilled worker from the EU have more of a right to live/work in this country than say a doctor, nurse or teacher from Australia or the US ?

You are assuming that the flow of migrants continues at the same rate or more from the EU and forget that around half are non EU at the moment. It would appear that non EU migrants do come to the U.K.. EU net migration is falling. Many EU workers work in unskilled jobs. Who would fill those jobs? There is no guarantee that we have enough U.K. workers willing to pick fruit, work in hotels or in some conveyor belt type jobs.

When I was over to Bournemouth recently there were no Brits working in the Hotel that I was staying in ( or at least in jobs with contact to guests ). Tourism is booming in the U.K. because of the devalued „Brexit“ pound. We need to pull in this revenue and to do that we need enough staff. Blocking non skilled staff also creates problems. There was a huge jump in the number of Bulgarians and Romanians recently. That won’t keep happening indefinitely. Apart from anything else the pound has lost value making jobs in the U.K. a bit less attractive.