The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (116 Viewers)

[martcov]

Which means most was on Clinton’s side and proves it fails.

Most what? And what fails?

 

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[Grendel]

Er no... I can’t be arsed to repeat myself... as I said this is far from over.. we have 2 whistle blowers at the moment.. I don’t see what more I have to answer. There was clearly a propaganda campaign with deliberate disregard for the facts...., I didn’t follow the remain campaign as I clearly wanted to keep the status quo - imo it benefits most people... they didn’t need to convince me.... I did watch, and have watched a lot of leave stuff and have been appalled, especially by Farage and the Mail, Express etc.. and by their readers‘ insane and hateful comments. I hope that some of those were „triggered“ by targeted propaganda campaigns as it would indeed be worse if these people were already like that...

So leave spent the budget better than remain? Is that what you are saying?

Also did the £9 million leaflet have no influence? Can you provide evidence as to the influence of provoking versus DM to justify your statement??

 

[martcov]

But in the end you choose your agency. Clinton had a 100 million higher marketing spend.

If martcov is correct and he says trump influenced voters more with a marginal spend he’s saying Donald J Trump is a genius.

Is that what you are saying Mart?

No. I am saying that. Trump used his fame and used controversy to his benefit, and his campaign team employed CA for his benefit. Have you seen the CA vice president‘s explanation of how they conducted the campaign? They told Trump what was trending and what and when to say things. Brilliantly coordinated. Even when and where he should appear. Trump is not a Genius, but his campaign was. Really interesting. Even how they pushed the „crooked Hillary“ phrase to the limit and used handcuffs for the „oo“ in crooked. The name stuck. Amazing as Trump himself is rotten to the core, but people ended up shouting „lock her up“ instead of „lock him up“. Brilliant psychology.

 

[martcov]

So leave spent the budget better than remain? Is that what you are saying?

Also did the £9 million leaflet have no influence? Can you provide evidence as to the influence of provoking versus DM to justify your statement??

What does „provoking versus DM“ mean?

 

[Grendel]

What does „provoking versus DM“ mean?

Spell check meant influence - so provide evidence please

 

[Grendel]

No. I am saying that. Trump used his fame and used controversy to his benefit, and his campaign team employed CA for his benefit. Have you seen the CA vice president‘s explanation of how they conducted the campaign? They told Trump what was trending and what and when to say things. Brilliantly coordinated. Even when and where he should appear. Trump is not a Genius, but his campaign was. Really interesting. Even how they pushed the „crooked Hillary“ phrase to the limit and used handcuffs for the „oo“ in crooked. The name stuck. Amazing as Trump himself is rotten to the core, but people ended up shouting „lock her up“ instead of „lock him up“. Brilliant psychology.

Saying crooked Hilary had nothing to do with profiling - you are a gift that keeps giving.

 

[martcov]

Saying crooked Hilary had nothing to do with profiling - you are a gift that keeps giving.

Where did I say that? I praised Trump‘s campaign and effective use of big data.

 

[martcov]

Spell check meant influence - so provide evidence please

? Do you seriously mean I have to prove the influence of the most read UK paper? One reason for owning a newspaper is to have influence. I suspect Viscount Rothermere knows what he doing. Or rather, approves of the line taken by his editor.

 

[Grendel]

? Do you seriously mean I have to prove the influence of the most read UK paper? One reason for owning a newspaper is to have influence. I suspect Viscount Rothermere knows what he doing. Or rather, approves of the line taken by his editor.

Mart you are taking about using profiling agencies. I want to see your evidence that the £3.5 m spent on the Canadian profiling agency had greater influence that the £9 million DM Cameron piece and the additional £7 million spent in other media outlets.

Mart - you mentioned Cambridge Analytica. Are you now saying that’s not the reason? Now it’s the press?

Mart - social media manipulation - did it swing it as you said? Yes or no?

 

[martcov]

I said that together, the Farage lies, posters etc, profilers and targeted social media, disinformation and the right wing press formed a formidable propaganda machine.

I think these factors worked. Who paid how much and for what and how each part was effective is above my information level.

 

[Grendel]

I said that together, the Farage lies, posters etc, profilers and targeted social media, disinformation and the right wing press formed a formidable propaganda machine.

I think these factors worked. Who paid how much and for what and how each part was effective is above my information level.

No mart you didn’t and I still want eveidence please.

 

[martcov]

No mart you didn’t and I still want eveidence please.

I said:

„They targeted people that they knew, through the profile given to them, they could make angry.... same general tactic as the mainstream right wing press and Farage. Together a formidable propaganda and disinformation campaign. The right wing press know how to work their readership“.

I also said that the evidences is above my information level. The propaganda had an influence. You can see that from some comments on here, standard sound bites on other Forum or readers‘ comments
on newspapers. How much influence I don’t know, but just because I cannot prove how much influence doesn’t mean that the whole leave campaign was a total waste of time and they could have saved their money. No sane person would claim that.

 

[Grendel]

. In both Trump and Brexit the margin was small, but enough to have been caused by targeting.

Next I’ll draw the specific quote in Cambridge Analytica you made.

Let’s do this first - lie or not!

Oh no right wing press in the US mart so explain how targeting made trump vitorious when the marketing budget was a fraction of Clinton’s.

 

[martcov]

Next I’ll draw the specific quote in Cambridge Analytica you made.

Let’s do this first - lie or not!

Oh no right wing press in the US mart so explain how targeting made trump vitorious when the marketing budget was a fraction of Clinton’s.

Trump‘s campaign played on the electoral college system. They knew where to aim. They targeted undecided voters in swing states. Triggered their fears and offered them hope. They lost the popular vote, but they took that into a count
Cost effective. You really should watch the YouTube video explaining the campaign. They also covered their failure when they worked for Ted Cruz and he lost.

 

[SkyblueBazza]

The 'silent majority' doesn't exsist. It is a term used by tiny right wing parties to infer that they have loads of support from the 'silent' people who didn't vote. Some leavers have indeed become racists or have been frightened into acting like racists. You mention Nazis, and I would agree that any Nazis would be at least sympathetic to parties like "For Britain".

The term 'common sense' is used to fill the void of facts in their propaganda. E.g. "we don't need experts", it is just 'common sense'.

As for being conned by professionals, read what the whistle blower says on that subject:

'Wylie machte öffentlich, dass seine ehemalige Firma Cambridge Analytica seit Jahren die Profile von 50 Millionen Facebook-Nutzern abschöpft und ihr Wissen an Parteien oder Kandidaten verkauft, die damit online gezielt potenzielle Wähler zu beeinflussen versuchen. Unter ihnen soll nicht nur US-Präsident Donald Trump gewesen sein. Sondern auch die britische Pro-Brexit-Kampagne.' C.A. Customers: Not just Donald Trump, but also the British Brexit campaign. ( Sorry it's in German, but it is out there in English if you google it ).

You should also watch the Channel 4 Dokumentar where Cambridge Analytica explain how they con people like yourself.

There you go again...assuming that I have been conned now.

If this 'silent majority' doesn't exist - why bother referring to it?

I am beginning to get both bored with/by you & erring toward agreeing with Grendel's diagnosis

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[SkyblueBazza]

Open minded, forward thinking and hoping that this disaster can be in some way mitigated. Feel that people like you have been terribly misled.

He said from Germany where he has not been misled in any way whatsoever I suppose?
I mean how can it possibly be a 'disaster'??? It hasn't happened yet.!

Do you expect some kind of personal briefing on the UK Gov't aims & tactics & a running commentary on progress??? Get over yourself man!

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[SkyblueBazza]

Unless you want to stir up hatred or publicly insult people, it is.

Which is not what you are trying to do whatsoever is it?

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[SkyblueBazza]

We’re not in Schengen. So you will say you are discrinated against. You wouldn’t be „discriminated against“ if you joined and you would be free to live and work wherever you wanted in the EU if we stayed. It is not discrimination, just that the UK is not a member or won’t be.

Gasp again...Mart - we ARE leaving!

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[SkyblueBazza]

The story is far from over. To say that people here take a step back and research data before concluding anything is a joke. We had all this with the „white elephant“ and „edifice“ posts about the Ricoh before Wasps moved in, although City were the „only show in town“. I take your comments with a pinch of salt.

I think you will find that in every populous...some do take a step back & research data (& some of those research from very poor quality data, or aren't very good at interpreting it, & some are), whereas others don't

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[martcov]

There you go again...assuming that I have been conned now.

If this 'silent majority' doesn't exist - why bother referring to it?

I am beginning to get both bored with/by you & erring toward agreeing with Grendel's diagnosis

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Because they need their supporters to feel part of a bigger movement.

 

[martcov]

He said from Germany where he has not been misled in any way whatsoever I suppose?
I mean how can it possibly be a 'disaster'??? It hasn't happened yet.!

Do you expect some kind of personal briefing on the UK Gov't aims & tactics & a running commentary on progress??? Get over yourself man!

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I have not had the same Farage DM style indoctrination here.

 

[martcov]

Which is not what you are trying to do whatsoever is it?

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Really? Hating the haters? Despising them and sneering at them maybe, but I don’t have anything to do with them personally. So difficult to hate them.

 

[martcov]

I think you will find that in every populous...some do take a step back & research data (& some of those research from very poor quality data, or aren't very good at interpreting it, & some are), whereas others don't

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True enough. Some just read the DM and Express and listen to the likes of Farage and it’s off to the pub to talk with their like minded mates.

 

[martcov]

Gasp again...Mart - we ARE leaving!

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Speak for yourself. I ain’t;-)

 

[SkyblueBazza]

Because they need their supporters to feel part of a bigger movement.

But if their supporters at ethe silent minority which does not exist they have no supporters - which is why they are always only fringe parties

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[SkyblueBazza]

Speak for yourself. I ain’t;-)

You deserve each other

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[SkyblueBazza]

True enough. Some just read the DM and Express and listen to the likes of Farage and it’s off to the pub to talk with their like minded mates.

I'm sure you are probably right on that. Fuck! We finally found something we agree on.

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[SkyblueBazza]

I have not had the same Farage DM style indoctrination here.

But those who fell prey to Mr Farage's rantings & spout them ad-nausea, are only as gullible & irritating as those who having lived somewhere like say...Germany & been unwittingly indoctrinated with positive EU messages, believe them & spout them ad-nauseum!

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[SkyblueBazza]

Because they need their supporters to feel part of a bigger movement.

What something like...a Federal Europe perhaps?

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[dutchman]

I said that together, the Farage lies, posters etc, profilers and targeted social media, disinformation and the right wing press formed a formidable propaganda machine.

I think these factors worked.

If you think that was what Leave voters based their decision on it shows just how far out of touch you are with ordinary working class people in Britain.

Emmanuel Macron has a better understanding of how people in Britain feel than you do!

 

[martcov]

But if their supporters at ethe silent minority which does not exist they have no supporters - which is why they are always only fringe parties

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Yes.

 

[martcov]

You deserve each other

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Yes. I agree.

 

[martcov]

If you think that was what Leave voters based their decision on it shows just how far out of touch you are with ordinary working class people in Britain.

Emmanuel Macron has a better understanding of how people in Britain feel than you do!

I like Macron. Wants to get things moving.

 

[martcov]

What something like...a Federal Europe perhaps?

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Difference is that a federal Europe is a real concept.

 

[martcov]

But those who fell prey to Mr Farage's rantings & spout them ad-nausea, are only as gullible & irritating as those who having lived somewhere like say...Germany & been unwittingly indoctrinated with positive EU messages, believe them & spout them ad-nauseum!

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Plenty of discussion here. Loads of social media propaganda, anti EU, shared and passed to my Facebook. But, I don’t buy it. I voted for the EEC in 1975, because I believed in a shared European future. I lived in the UK then, my beliefs haven’t changed. No one needed to indoctrinate me. If you want to put that into so-called „common sense“ terms, I have always felt that Europe working together would be a safer and more prosperous place than the old nation state idea. Putin, Trump and Erdogan are examples of „nation state“ leaders who as leaders make themselves popular, and wealthier, by threatening other states, regardless of the economic fate of their poorer population. Not my scene.