The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (45 Viewers)

[SkyblueBazza]

Difference is that a federal Europe is a real concept.

A Federal Europe which blows all your 'Sovereign nations' stuff out of the water! And a concept that will be blown out of the water within 20yrs

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[martcov]

A Federal Europe which blows all your 'Sovereign nations' stuff out of the water! And a concept that will be blown out of the water within 20yrs

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And replaced by..? Sovereign nations..... sounds like a great idea. Oh wait, we had that before and look what happened then. No, the EU will not fall apart, simply because the alternative is worse. It will evolve to survive. The thought of borders, lots of different currencies, competing political systems differing trade regulations and tariffs throughout Europe is enough to put paid to the concept of 27 nation states acting solely in their own interests on the continent. It would be worse than dissolving NATO, without a replacement, or the UN. Federal States working together works well enough in the USA. Doubt whether there are people there advocating splitting the Federal States into nation States, for the same reasons I have given in the EU.

 

[SkyblueBazza]

Plenty of discussion here. Loads of social media propaganda, anti EU, shared and passed to my Facebook. But, I don’t buy it. I voted for the EEC in 1975, because I believed in a shared European future. I lived in the UK then, my beliefs haven’t changed. No one needed to indoctrinate me. If you want to put that into so-called „common sense“ terms, I have always felt that Europe working together would be a safer and more prosperous place than the old nation state idea. Putin, Trump and Erdogan are examples of „nation state“ leaders who as leaders make themselves popular, and wealthier, by threatening other states, regardless of the economic fate of their poorer population. Not my scene.

And there was all the same things going on conducted by the Remain camp - they just were not as effective at it!
You formed your belief on the EU based on whatever (dare I suggest indoctrination at the time? I will assume not for the sake of argument) - someone fed you something that pressed a button for you at the time. You refuse to accept fuse to accept that others reasonable people have had very similar experience as yourself & yet formed a different opinion to you.

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[SkyblueBazza]

And replaced by..? Sovereign nations..... sounds like a great idea. Oh wait, we had that before and look what happened then. No, the EU will not fall apart, simply because the alternative is worse. It will evolve to survive. The thought of borders, lots of different currencies, competing political systems differing trade regulations and tariffs throughout Europe is enough to put paid to the concept of 27 nation states acting solely in their own interests on the continent. It would be worse than dissolving NATO, without a replacement, or the UN. Federal States working together works well enough in the USA. Doubt whether their are people there advocating splitting the Federal States into nation States, for the same reasons I have given in the EU.

Well when it evolves into something more palatable, toned-down - it will no doubt be more attractive to the UK, which it will welcome back because our 70m market is hard to ignore

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[Astute]

I said that together, the Farage lies, posters etc, profilers and targeted social media, disinformation and the right wing press formed a formidable propaganda machine.

I think these factors worked. Who paid how much and for what and how each part was effective is above my information level.

Are you really this clueless?

Most see Farage as a clown. The votes were well in the last election for them. Ukip got less than AfD in Germany. B2it you make out that he has a massive say here yet the AfD are nothing in Germany.

But one thing I do like about Farage is when he calls out the lies from others. Bit you will ignore this as they are normally part of the remain side that make up thwir own facts.

Disinformation? Didn't happen on the remain side did it? Both sides were as bad as each other. The rich wanted to remain mostly.

You have forgotten to mention the racist vote. The one where the asian population voted to leave. They must have done so because of Farage.

Try looking at the whole picture.

The lies gained votes for both sides.

The scare tactics won votes for both sides. The remain points have all been wrong so far. Yet I am supposed to believe the rest of them as the 100% truth.

 

[martcov]

Are you really this clueless?

Most see Farage as a clown. The votes were well in the last election for them. Ukip got less than AfD in Germany. B2it you make out that he has a massive say here yet the AfD are nothing in Germany.

But one thing I do like about Farage is when he calls out the lies from others. Bit you will ignore this as they are normally part of the remain side that make up thwir own facts.

Disinformation? Didn't happen on the remain side did it? Both sides were as bad as each other. The rich wanted to remain mostly.

You have forgotten to mention the racist vote. The one where the asian population voted to leave. They must have done so because of Farage.

Try looking at the whole picture.

The lies gained votes for both sides.

The scare tactics won votes for both sides. The remain points have all been wrong so far. Yet I am supposed to believe the rest of them as the 100% truth.

Farage has a massive propaganda say. he is always in the news or on his radio show or being quoted by his Buddies in the Express.

Do you call him out on his lies then?

Some remain points were wrong, others can still become correct.

I am looking at the whole picture and see that we would be better off remaining.

 

[martcov]

Well when it evolves into something more palatable, toned-down - it will no doubt be more attractive to the UK, which it will welcome back because our 70m market is hard to ignore

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Let's see.

 

[martcov]

Are you really this clueless?

Most see Farage as a clown. The votes were well in the last election for them. Ukip got less than AfD in Germany. B2it you make out that he has a massive say here yet the AfD are nothing in Germany.

But one thing I do like about Farage is when he calls out the lies from others. Bit you will ignore this as they are normally part of the remain side that make up thwir own facts.

Disinformation? Didn't happen on the remain side did it? Both sides were as bad as each other. The rich wanted to remain mostly.

You have forgotten to mention the racist vote. The one where the asian population voted to leave. They must have done so because of Farage.

Try looking at the whole picture.

The lies gained votes for both sides.

The scare tactics won votes for both sides. The remain points have all been wrong so far. Yet I am supposed to believe the rest of them as the 100% truth.

Wylie says Vote Leave “cheating” may well have swayed EU referendum result
Simon Hart, a Conservative, goes next.

Q: Have you made any assessment as to whether this over-spending would have affected the result?

Wylie says he has two points.

First, if someone is caught doping in the Olympics, no one asks if that made the different to them winning the race.

You should not win by cheating, he says.

He says this vote made a fundamental change to the constitution of the country.

Second, Dominic Cummings himself said the internet campaign was what made all the difference, he says.

He says the “conversion rates” for the campaign’s online advertising were “incredibly effective”.

He says it is perfectly credible to say that, without cheating, there would have been a different result.

Dominic Cummings said that the internet campaign made all the difference. Is he a clueless remoaner? Grendel claims things like the "conversion rates" were minimal. Dominic Cummings, who knows far more about the campaign than Grendel, says the opposite. Who do you believe?

 

[martcov]

Well when it evolves into something more palatable, toned-down - it will no doubt be more attractive to the UK, which it will welcome back because our 70m market is hard to ignore

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• The current population of the United Kingdom is 66,469,574 as of Tuesday, March 27, 2018, based on the latest United Nations estimates.
• The United Kingdom population is equivalent to 0.87% of the total world population.
• The U.K. ranks number 21 in the list of countries (and dependencies) by population.
• The population density in the United Kingdom is 275 per Km2 (713 people per mi2).
• The total land area is 241,930 Km2 (93,410 sq. miles)
• 81.2 % of the population is urban (54,072,374 people in 2018)
• The median age in the United Kingdom is 40.3 years.

Really? The UK wants to become a global player again. When I was born in 1955 we were the 9th biggest ( population ) country in the world with 1,84% of the world population. We were also a military power and had the remnants of an empire.

The reality is that we have reduced our armed forces to the bone, are now 21st biggest country and have only 0,87% of the world population. The rest of the world has become richer and many others militarily stronger.

Our population is ageing rapidly.

Yet, you refuse to see the writing on the wall. We are not the country we once were. e.g. "For Britain" ( "leave means leave" type party ) wants us to rebuild our armed forces to be able to unilaterally defend ourselves - as they believe we once were able to. How? How much would that cost? Who would work in manufacturing and services if our young are in the military? We have a high percentage of non producers or soon to be non producing pensioners. Who would pay for this? Madness.

This is what we are up against from some leavers. It is nostalgia and doesn't reflect our place in the world. The EU gave us a supply of motivated workers and the chance to work within a European Defence Force. To pool our military and human resources. Take these things away and we shall soon be in trouble.

I doubt whether we are of crucial importance to the EU. Obviously it would be to our and the EU's advantage for the UK to be there, but life goes on.

 

[Grendel]

Wylie says Vote Leave “cheating” may well have swayed EU referendum result
Simon Hart, a Conservative, goes next.

Q: Have you made any assessment as to whether this over-spending would have affected the result?

Wylie says he has two points.

First, if someone is caught doping in the Olympics, no one asks if that made the different to them winning the race.

You should not win by cheating, he says.

He says this vote made a fundamental change to the constitution of the country.

Second, Dominic Cummings himself said the internet campaign was what made all the difference, he says.

He says the “conversion rates” for the campaign’s online advertising were “incredibly effective”.

He says it is perfectly credible to say that, without cheating, there would have been a different result.

Dominic Cummings said that the internet campaign made all the difference. Is he a clueless remoaner? Grendel claims things like the "conversion rates" were minimal. Dominic Cummings, who knows far more about the campaign than Grendel, says the opposite. Who do you believe?

I believe the young female journalist who did the profile from the company and it came out as a 65% probability rating that she was a he and homosexual.

Again though you seem to fail to grasp the point - media profiling is nothing new. Corbyn used it massively in the election. Campaigns can choose to spend and use whatever sources they wish. Furthermore as you constantly ignore, the government sent a pro remain mailer to every single household and this was not included in the campaign maximum spend so the £9 million cost should be added to campaign cost.

Clinton used far more of this than trump and lost

 

[Astute]

Some remain points were wrong, others can still become correct.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Yet you preach that certain thungs will happen. Nobody has a clue other than the clowns at the EU. They have it in their hands to make the best deal for the citizens of the EU or to punish all countries so they can punish us. Or maybe they see a need to scare the other EU countries into not considering leaving.

 

[martcov]

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Yet you preach that certain thungs will happen. Nobody has a clue other than the clowns at the EU. They have it in their hands to make the best deal for the citizens of the EU or to punish all countries so they can punish us. Or maybe they see a need to scare the other EU countries into not considering leaving.

They have it their hands to make the best deal for the EU. That's their job. Hopefully it will also be good for the UK.

 

[Grendel]

• The current population of the United Kingdom is 66,469,574 as of Tuesday, March 27, 2018, based on the latest United Nations estimates.
• The United Kingdom population is equivalent to 0.87% of the total world population.
• The U.K. ranks number 21 in the list of countries (and dependencies) by population.
• The population density in the United Kingdom is 275 per Km2 (713 people per mi2).
• The total land area is 241,930 Km2 (93,410 sq. miles)
• 81.2 % of the population is urban (54,072,374 people in 2018)
• The median age in the United Kingdom is 40.3 years.

Really? The UK wants to become a global player again. When I was born in 1955 we were the 9th biggest ( population ) country in the world with 1,84% of the world population. We were also a military power and had the remnants of an empire.

The reality is that we have reduced our armed forces to the bone, are now 21st biggest country and have only 0,87% of the world population. The rest of the world has become richer and many others militarily stronger.

Our population is ageing rapidly.

Yet, you refuse to see the writing on the wall. We are not the country we once were. e.g. "For Britain" ( "leave means leave" type party ) wants us to rebuild our armed forces to be able to unilaterally defend ourselves - as they believe we once were able to. How? How much would that cost? Who would work in manufacturing and services if our young are in the military? We have a high percentage of non producers or soon to be non producing pensioners. Who would pay for this? Madness.

This is what we are up against from some leavers. It is nostalgia and doesn't reflect our place in the world. The EU gave us a supply of motivated workers and the chance to work within a European Defence Force. To pool our military and human resources. Take these things away and we shall soon be in trouble.

I doubt whether we are of crucial importance to the EU. Obviously it would be to our and the EU's advantage for the UK to be there, but life goes on.

Behind Bangladesh on a league table

Nurse, nurse! Time to pull the screens on this mentalcase!

 

[martcov]

I believe the young female journalist who did the profile from the company and it came out as a 65% probability rating that she was a he and homosexual.

Again though you seem to fail to grasp the point - media profiling is nothing new. Corbyn used it massively in the election. Campaigns can choose to spend and use whatever sources they wish. Furthermore as you constantly ignore, the government sent a pro remain mailer to every single household and this was not included in the campaign maximum spend so the £9 million cost should be added to campaign cost.

Clinton used far more of this than trump and lost

It is not just about profiling though is it? Which you conveniently forget. It is about using data obtained illegally or without express content, and about illegal spending. The campaigns can choose to spend up until their legal limit.

If the 9 million was illegal, then bring it on. Let's have that debated in parliament. Clinton did not have the same skills on her side. Have you viewed that YouTube that I recommended?

 

[Grendel]

It is not just about profiling though is it? Which you conveniently forget. It is about using data obtained illegally or without express content, and about illegal spending. The campaigns can choose to spend up until their legal limit.

If the 9 million was illegal, then bring it on. Let's have that debated in parliament. Clinton did not have the same skills on her side. Have you viewed that YouTube that I recommended?

You quoted a politician saying it’s the internet campaign. Now it’s the express, then it’s Farage then it’s trump

You are all over the place

 

[martcov]

Behind Bangladesh on a league table

Nurse, nurse! Time to pull the screens on this mentalcase!

What are you on about? We are behind many countries in population, but that is only an example of our relative position in this world. People seem to think that a country with less than 1% of the world population will be able to defend itself and be a world power. It can't and it won't. More significant, is the ageing population and the medien age of the population. How are we going to work to produce wealth, whilst at the same time caring for the elderly?

 

[Astute]

Wylie says Vote Leave “cheating” may well have swayed EU referendum result
Simon Hart, a Conservative, goes next.

Q: Have you made any assessment as to whether this over-spending would have affected the result?

Wylie says he has two points.

First, if someone is caught doping in the Olympics, no one asks if that made the different to them winning the race.

You should not win by cheating, he says.

He says this vote made a fundamental change to the constitution of the country.

Second, Dominic Cummings himself said the internet campaign was what made all the difference, he says.

He says the “conversion rates” for the campaign’s online advertising were “incredibly effective”.

He says it is perfectly credible to say that, without cheating, there would have been a different result.

Dominic Cummings said that the internet campaign made all the difference. Is he a clueless remoaner? Grendel claims things like the "conversion rates" were minimal. Dominic Cummings, who knows far more about the campaign than Grendel, says the opposite. Who do you believe?

And straight back onto mights and maybe's again.

Yes the leave lies might have made a difference. But did they make more of a difference when you also compare them against the remain lies. Or are we only allowed to consider the difference made by the leave lies?

 

[martcov]

You quoted a politician saying it’s the internet campaign. Now it’s the express, then it’s Farage then it’s trump

You are all over the place

Yes, quite right. The discussion is taking place all over the place. Hardly surprising that someone who is losing his automatic right to live and work where is situated, is taking an interest in what is going on. It is also the most important event since the second world war for Britain and that does interest me.

 

[Astute]

They have it their hands to make the best deal for the EU. That's their job. Hopefully it will also be good for the UK.

So they have it in their hands to impose tariffs against companies based in the EU when they sell much more than they buy because it will benefit them?

If what you are saying is right then bring it on as it will benefit us even more.

 

[martcov]

And straight back onto mights and maybe's again.

Yes the leave lies might have made a difference. But did they make more of a difference when you also compare them against the remain lies. Or are we only allowed to consider the difference made by the leave lies?

No one is stopping you. The question is the legality. If the leave side themselves tell us that that was the difference, and it turns out that the "difference" was illegal, then it poses legitimate questions as to the legality of the vote.

 

[Grendel]

What are you on about? We are behind many countries in population, but that is only an example of our relative position in this world. People seem to think that a country with less than 1% of the world population will be able to defend itself and be a world power. It can't and it won't. More significant, is the ageing population and the medien age of the population. How are we going to work to produce wealth, whilst at the same time caring for the elderly?

It proves nothing Mart it’s windmilling with no argument

How do we care for the elderly when we are building a road in Romania and a ski resort in Bulgaria and we net contribute to these ghastly projects?

 

[martcov]

So they have it in their hands to impose tariffs against companies based in the EU when they sell much more than they buy because it will benefit them?

If what you are saying is right then bring it on as it will benefit us even more.

I said their job is to make the best deal for the EU. Whatever that entails. The UK is not their main priority.

 

[Grendel]

No one is stopping you. The question is the legality. If the leave side themselves tell us that that was the difference, and it turns out that the "difference" was illegal, then it poses legitimate questions as to the legality of the vote.

Hitler would have loved you

 

[Grendel]

I said their job is to make the best deal for the EU. Whatever that entails. The UK is not their main priority.

No germany is and always had been

 

[martcov]

It proves nothing Mart it’s windmilling with no argument

How do we care for the elderly when we are building a road in Romania and a ski resort in Bulgaria and we net contribute to these ghastly projects?

How much of the EU budget in Romania is ours? How much does caring for the elderly cost? How valuable is peace in Europe aided by development of the poorer countries and therefore opening up new markets for our goods and services? Since when has creating wealth been a ghastly project?

 

[martcov]

Hitler would have loved you

I doubt it, as I call into question the leave propaganda and want the alleged cheating investigated.

 

[martcov]

No germany is and always had been

Yes, sure it has..... mad Merkel, 4th Reich, EUSSR, jack booted Merkel... Go back to your mate Farage if you want to go down that path.

 

[Grendel]

Yes, sure it has..... mad Merkel, 4th Reich, EUSSR, jack booted Merkel... Go back to your mate Farage if you want to go down that path.

It’s true and everyone knows it. The Eu is set up to provide germany with an advantage in trade terms across the whole of Europe.

The euro is a tool they can use to achieve this and suppress interest rates from natural growth levels.

It’s economic domination followed by political integration based of German national interests

That’s a pretty accepted view by many economists.

 

[Astute]

Yes, quite right. The discussion is taking place all over the place. Hardly surprising that someone who is losing his automatic right to live and work where is situated, is taking an interest in what is going on. It is also the most important event since the second world war for Britain and that does interest me.

Are you getting kicked out of Germany?

 

[Grendel]

I doubt it, as I call into question the leave propaganda and want the alleged cheating investigated.

No you ignore all propaganda from one side, try and marginalise and alienate voters who had an alternate view to you, claim any result against you is not democratic, rubbish and accuse of corruption all political enemies.

Sound familiar?

 

[Astute]

I said their job is to make the best deal for the EU. Whatever that entails. The UK is not their main priority.

So how would having tariffs benefit those in the EU when they sell us much more than we sell them?

 

[martcov]

It’s true and everyone knows it. The Eu is set up to provide germany with an advantage in trade terms across the whole of Europe.

The euro is a tool they can use to achieve this and suppress interest rates from natural growth levels.

It’s economic domination followed by political integration based of German national interests

That’s a pretty accepted view by many economists.

No, it isn't. It was started originally for coal and steel, but evolved. The French had a big say and Eurpeans generally were in favour of rapproachment between previous enemies. It is a great thing and has acheived a lot. It is unthinkable to go back to how things were. Even Le Pen dropped FRexit. France has a lot to say, Britain too, but they have abdicated. I say they because I am not a leaver.

 

[Astute]

No, it isn't. It was started originally for coal and steel, but evolved. The French had a big say and Eurpeans generally were in favour of rapproachment between previous enemies. It is a great thing and has acheived a lot. It is unthinkable to go back to how things were. Even Le Pen dropped FRexit. France has a lot to say, Britain too, but they have abdicated. I say they because I am not a leaver.

It was started to make it easier to trade with each other. It has ended up nothing like what we joined.

 

[Grendel]

No, it isn't. It was started originally for coal and steel, but evolved. The French had a big say and Eurpeans generally were in favour of rapproachment between previous enemies. It is a great thing and has acheived a lot. It is unthinkable to go back to how things were. Even Le Pen dropped FRexit. France has a lot to say, Britain too, but they have abdicated. I say they because I am not a leaver.

You are blind to the truth.

What’s the main point of a single currency?

 

[martcov]

No you ignore all propaganda from one side, try and marginalise and alienate voters who had an alternate view to you, claim any result against you is not democratic, rubbish and accuse of corruption all political enemies.

Sound familiar?

Yes. Very, especially the attempt to marginalise and alienate people with a different opinion. It is not me who is in front of a parliamentary commission spilling the beans on the leave campaign. If he is right, it is more corruption from the leave side. UKIP is already in trouble for missusing EU funds.