Are you saying the ECB is helping them ?
The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (354 Viewers)
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Are you saying the ECB is helping them ?
Grendel
Well-Known Member
No it’s crippling them.
Grendel
Well-Known Member
Better off, are you insane. How much does Italy owe to the European Central Bank?
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
So the ECB is deliberately trying to destable the European economy? Is that what you’re claiming?
Grendel
Well-Known Member
How much does Italy owe the European Central Bank?
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
So if the ECB raised interest rates that would help a country who’s national debt is currently running at 180% of GDP? Is that what you’re saying?
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
At what rate? Why does it owe them?You seem to think that raising interest rates will help a country who’s national debt is running at 130% of GDP. How is that?
Grendel
Well-Known Member
How much is their total debt?
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
You know the answer to that. Make your point. If you have one of course.
Grendel
Well-Known Member
Well Tony the point is they owe £600 billion euros to the European Central Bank.
The interest rate is low for one reason.
What’s the reason Tony?
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
Again. If you have a point to make make it and stop dicking around. We’re in danger of having a conversation here if you do.
Grendel
Well-Known Member
I have to go slowly Tony as I’ve noticed in your debates with Astute you get confused when long lengthy content is presented for you to consider.
They are low Tony mainly because of germany suppressing the rate in Germany.
Why would they do this Tony?
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
The defining word there is astute.
Hasn’t the ECB said just recently that the stimulus program has had a negative effect on the German banking industry? That seems to contradict the point that you’ not making very well.
Isn’t it also true to say that Germany has for some time now been putting pressure on the ECB to raise interest rates?
Grendel
Well-Known Member
German industry has of course but the impact would be problematic for other European countries.
Merkel holds the key. The Italy government has been voted in with a pledge for boosting spending. This won’t be allowed to happen as it was not in Greece as the EU can explain the catastrophic impact of their own actions
So austerity remains and the government is a mere puppet in Italy dictated to by the key money lender.
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
I’m not talking about German industry I’m talking about German government. In particular Germany’s finance minister http://fortune.com
It’s government wants an end to quantitative easing and suppression of interest rates. That contradicts what you’re saying is the case.
The ECB shouldn't rush to end stimulus — no matter what Germany says
And leading economists in Germany agree Subscribe to read
Germany’s courts are in on the act too Subscribe to read
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Earlsdon_Skyblue1
Well-Known Member
So, in Italy they are going to have an election because 'they didn't get it right the first time', and now we are seeing George Soros try and fund a second referendum.
This is certainly not democracy.
This is certainly not democracy.
It certainly is. The Italians faced with the appointment of someone ( unelected as far as I know ) who proposes something that could wreck their economy and devalue the life savings of many people, have created a situation where the people can say whether they are willing to risk that.
Soros is not funding a second referendum. He is funding a campaign for another referendum because the country is being driven at high speed into a brick wall. This was not known by everyone who voted. Now the people can see which way the cookie crumbles, they should have the choice to confirm that they are ok with that. Or not.
Don't see why someone as concerned about democracy and free speech as yourself would have any objection to people being asked to confirm their decision in light of the facts that we now know.
Orban and Bannon, who has been in Hungary and Italy offering his advice ( FFS ), have both said that liberal democracy is now dead. Soros is fighting to keep Western values and liberal democracy alive, which is why he is not popular with your right wing mates. Glad he is there.
fernandopartridge
Well-Known Member
Oh fuck off. Soros doesn't give a hoot about democracy, he's about as much a poster boy for neo liberalism as you could get.
Yes, that’s why Orban is against him.. sarcasm. Orban and Bannon don’t give a hoot about democracy which is why they attack the media. The name of the game is to discredit or, if possible, ban the so-called mainstream media. They attack Soros‘ university and him. There are photos of him as a SS man... although he was at schools at the time and is Jewish. I would say Soros has a more democratic outlook than his right wing opponents.
Grendel
Well-Known Member
If you believe all that bollocks you are seriously fucking mental
Grendel
Well-Known Member
There’s going to be a whole lot of EU muck thrown around over the next few days a d weeks. What the snout in the EU trough Soros is really alarmed at is the events in Italy.
Italy will at some point exit the Euro of that I’m convinced. The events this week have made that more likely. Despite Martcov and his delusions Italia have been crippled by the euro and it’s worsening. If it does go a d leave a half a trillion pound black hole in the EU Bank the whole house of cards will collapse almost overnight
Italy will at some point exit the Euro of that I’m convinced. The events this week have made that more likely. Despite Martcov and his delusions Italia have been crippled by the euro and it’s worsening. If it does go a d leave a half a trillion pound black hole in the EU Bank the whole house of cards will collapse almost overnight
Kingokings204
Well-Known Member
Exactly how I see it Grendel. Spot on.
That’s why they couldn’t let Greece leave 3 years ago. If Greece left then the whole thing goes bang. So they imposed austerity and German ministers from the IMF to control and over see spending in Greece. The county who invented democracy. Ironic
The Italians are smart people and I fancy they will give a bigger fight than Greece. Nice to see as ESB said that they gave the wrong answer in the last election so it looks like being a re run in Italy in July or September. The EU crumbling before your eyes.
Kingokings204
Well-Known Member
What planet are you on?
Soros is about as anti democratic as it gets unless you give the right answer of course. I do often wonder if he would want another referendum if we voted remain seen as he is such a nice chap.
Kingokings204
Well-Known Member
I’ve just seen the Italian bonds markets are in crisis now also. Worrying times for Italy.
2 options
1. Italy get a bailout and a further trapped in the euro and austerity just like Greece with no future.
2. Sack the euro off as G said and create a big hole in the ECB and the whole thing goes bang.
Simple as that for me.
2 options
1. Italy get a bailout and a further trapped in the euro and austerity just like Greece with no future.
2. Sack the euro off as G said and create a big hole in the ECB and the whole thing goes bang.
Simple as that for me.
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
It is much more likely the € would eventually collapse rather than the EU, neither Cinque Stelle or La Lega have advocated actually leaving the EU.
What evidence are you using that the average Italian is 'smart'? Granted, young Italian women are amongst the most intelligent and educated in the world but hold relatively little power or influence in a very male dominated and centred country.
Are you saying that Greeks are not smart?
The EU is not crumbling as the Italians are not talking about leaving the EU.
If there’s a major financial crisis in Europe, then Brexit will be even worse, so I don’t see why you are so happy at the thought.
It may help Trump or Putin of course, which is why Bannon was in Europe offering advice to the Italian right wingers.
No, probably not, but Farage had said 52:48 remain would mean work to be done. Until Farage got the result he wanted.
Enjoying Brexit up until now?
BoJo says countries like Argentina want to do deals with us. Could be interesting. They, along with the USA, will no doubt have a list of demands we have to fulfill in order to trade freely with them.
But, I wouldn’t pay too much attention to our buffoon.
So it’s 1. then.
The Eurozone needs reform. As has been suggested, an EURO finance minister with powers to create a closer fiscal union including coordinated corporation tax bands, VAT levels and debt control. A transfer system will then be unavoidable. Which means the richer countries will have to subsidise the poorer if they cannot meet the conditions required by the EURO finance minister without outside help. Plenty of fun there and it won’t happen overnight, but the alternative of recurring crises and high youth unemployment is worse.
No one, apart from perhaps KoK and money lenders, wants interest rates to rocket on Italian bonds. Just as no one wants high inflation in Italy due to some currency experiment.
The collapse of the Euro back into 20 odd different currencies would be pure hell as they sought to realign to their own values. Why anyone, apart from a Brexitloon, would saliva at that is beyond me.
Let’s see if the Italians are even asked whether the want to leave the Euro or not, by the parties pledging to leave it in their manifestos.
What planet are you on is more to the point? Asking for a referendum on something we can see, such as the actual deal on leaving, is far more democratic than voting on a leap in the dark with no defined outcome apart from „leave“.
Democracy can only function if the voters know what or who they are voting for. In this country, a parliamentary democracy,
you vote for a party manifesto, or at the least for a party that you know.
If things don’t go according to how you were told, you can vote for a change of government.
With the EU, you cannot keep leaving and rejoining an organisation of 28 states, so, at the very least you should be fully aware of the consequences of leaving and be able to make a choice based on your knowledge. That hasn’t been possible until now.
When we have the deal in writing, we can look at it and either accept it or reject it.
I don’t see your problem with giving the voters an informed choice.
Kingokings204
Well-Known Member
Yes probably option 1. I agree but is that really the right option. It hasn’t helped Greece anyway and they didn’t even vote for it.
I don’t want Italian bond markets and their economy to crash but sadly the position they are in means it’s very possible. That wasn’t me who put them in that position it was the great EU as Italy as stuck in a Currency just like Greece it never should of joined.
Kingokings204
Well-Known Member
Brexit was a once in a lifetime vote. We are a leaflet to every household at the cost of 9m quid telling us that the decision will be implemented.
We had a vote and brexit won. Soros as you admitted wouldn’t have another referendum if remain won so that’s all you need to know about him. Sore loser.
I’m not saying brexit solves everything and currently it looks like being shafted but that isn’t down to brexit voters that’s down to our government. The majority of the cabinet are remain, they don’t even believe in brexit.
Kingokings204
Well-Known Member
Yeah good points and I know a hand full of Italians by me. Very smart and charming people. The big one for Italy is the currency and being told what to do by the Germans. They had a general election and now it looks 99% certain like another one in a few months. It’s a mess. It’s a much bigger problem then brexit.
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
The Italians you will find abroad are going to be more outlook looking and on the whole, more intelligent. There is definitely anti-German sentiment amongst a significant proportion who live there, especially in the south.