The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (308 Viewers)

[Sick Boy]

FOM is one of the greatest post war achievements in Europe. Most humans appreciate freedom to go where they want. It is not possible in the whole world, but in 28 countries it is. An amazing situation. Losing it and recreating borders creates supply problems, delays and costs. Apart from the bureaucracy for individuals filling out visas.

Is there actually any appetite in the other 27 countries to take FoM of EU citizens? The British seem to be the only ones with an issue with it.

 

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[martcov]

Down to the EU really isn’t it. I’m the same way as they use the people of the southern counties they will use the Irish as a political football in the hope of getting Britain to tow the line.

May is no thatcher. Thatcher despite being pro Europe would have carried out the whole mandate in a more forceful way. The Eu is in some turmoil with member states ignoring its rules. Austria will ignore the rules soon and insist on border regulations to cross through Italy - Hungary will follow. It’s vulnerable.

The Eu should be told no no deal means no divorce payment and all ties cut. It will then be forced to impose greater contributions on already sceptical member states. All it will take is one to fall out of line and the house of cards will collapse.

Bla bla bla... babble. House of cards will collapse.. no it won’t. Been there done that, which is why we have the EU.

Similar to the terminology: „kick the door in and the house will fall down“.

Didn’t go right that time either and Russia survived and kicked that guy‘s arse.

You keep coming back to this populist terminology from the Nazi times.

 

[Sick Boy]

Down to the EU really isn’t it. I’m the same way as they use the people of the southern counties they will use the Irish as a political football in the hope of getting Britain to tow the line.

May is no thatcher. Thatcher despite being pro Europe would have carried out the whole mandate in a more forceful way. The Eu is in some turmoil with member states ignoring its rules. Austria will ignore the rules soon and insist on border regulations to cross through Italy - Hungary will follow. It’s vulnerable.

The Eu should be told no no deal means no divorce payment and all ties cut. It will then be forced to impose greater contributions on already sceptical member states. All it will take is one to fall out of line and the house of cards will collapse.

Thatcher would never have triggered Article 50 and would be baffled at the UK leaving the SM.

 

[martcov]

Is there actually any appetite in the other 27 countries to take FoM of EU citizens? The British seem to be the only ones with an issue with it.

Never heard anything about that here. They don’t want any more refugees ( they on the right ), but never heard of people wanting to sacrifice their free movement.

 

[martcov]

Correct - at best merkel was an overblown town hall mayor - now she is a completely busted flush.

Most respected leader in Europe for years.. until the squabbling in recent times. Still rather her than some of the other „leaders“.

 

[Grendel]

Thatcher would never have triggered Article 50 and would be baffled at the UK leaving the SM.

She would as she understood democracy and to ignore the will of the people at your peril

 

[Sick Boy]

She would as she understood democracy and to ignore the will of the people at your peril

She wouldn't have let it get to the stage of even calling the referendum. She would think the country has gone insane. On a sidenote I still don't understand why those who are pro-EU are labeled as 'lefties', when some of its biggest fans have been to the right.

 

[Grendel]

She wouldn't have let it get to the stage of even calling the referendum. She would think the country has gone insane. On a sidenote I still don't understand why those who are pro-EU are labeled as 'lefties', when some of its biggest fans have been to the right.

Same for people who are anti EU who are more from the left of politics.

 

[Sick Boy]

Same for people who are anti EU who are more from the left of politics.

Exactly!

 

[martcov]

She would as she understood democracy and to ignore the will of the people at your peril

If there even was a will of the people you may be right. Around 50/50 is not the will of the people. If you say that, you are ignoring half the population. As soon as it is perceived that things are not as promised, there could be a backlash

Whatever happens, there has to be a vote at the end of negotiations. If that is decisive either way, then you can claim the will of the people. You’ve gotta be looking at a 2/3 majority to start talking about the will of the people.

Now that Farage is talking about it coming good in an undefined number of years, I can predict the next Nazi terminology. When it’s obvious the populists have screwed up, they go into „Endsieg“ modus. They keep talking about the final victory which is on it’s way, despite everything collapsing around you. Farage has just made the first move towards that.

 

[Grendel]

Exactly!

Better tell Martcov he thinks brexiteers are mainly foam at the mouth right wing express readers

 

[martcov]

Better tell Martcov he thinks brexiteers are mainly foam at the mouth right wing express readers

Mainly.

 

[skybluetony176]

She would as she understood democracy and to ignore the will of the people at your peril

Are you seriously talking about the same person who famously introduced poll tax very much against the will of the people?

 

[Grendel]

Are you seriously talking about the same person who famously introduced poll tax very much against the will of the people?

Oh dear.

 

[Grendel]

Mainly.

Wrong again

 

[Sick Boy]

Better tell Martcov he thinks brexiteers are mainly foam at the mouth right wing express readers

It will be a mixture of both but members of the far right and left are most certainly going to be Leave voters.

 

[skybluetony176]

Oh dear.

Are you saying that the people accepted the poll tax and it was the pinnacle of her political career rather than the end? Maybe your memory is a little different to mine but I remember this Tory flagship policy under her leadership being hated by everyone including her own cabinet who begged her in a cabinet meeting not to adopt it, she did anyway protests and riots ensued, people refused to pay it, a massive backtrack had to happen by which time it was too late and it ultimately ended with her resignation. Is this the same Thatcher who knew not to ignore the will of the people?

 

[Grendel]

Are you saying that the people accepted the poll tax and it was the pinnacle of her political career rather than the end? Maybe your memory is a little different to mine but I remember this story flagship policy under her leadership being hated by everyone including her own cabinet who begged her in a cabinet meeting not to adopt it, she did anyway protests and riots ensued, people refused to pay it, a massive backtrack had to happen by which time it was too late and it ultimately ended with her resignation. Is this the same Thatcher who knew not to ignore the will of the people?

Why do quote absurdity like pinnacle of achievement and support.

Thatcher was bought down by a dead sheep and the subject of this thread

 

[skybluetony176]

Why do quote absurdity like pinnacle of achievement and support.

Thatcher was bought down by a dead sheep and the subject of this thread

Thatcher was brought down by Howe’s resignation over the poll tax and Hestletine taking this as an opportunity to challenge her for the leadership.

 

[Astute]

What are you on about? What economic migrants are those? Most come to work from the EU, or are pensioners from places like the U.K.. If a pensioner from Romania comes he has to have an income or he could be deported after 3 months. Same with the UK pensioners in Spain, they cannot claim a Spanish pension.

So you have forgotten that you said no child should be able to move from outside the EU. So why is it allowed inside the EU? If their parent comes here to work so do they. Or do you see them as lesser people?

 

[Astute]

Is the plan to lock people up finalised? The SPD won’t wear that. Discussions are still ongoing in Germany and the period of 4 weeks was mentioned. There is still a long way to go.

Merkel is going to push it all the way. And so will the EU.

 

[Grendel]

Thatcher was brought down by Howe’s resignation over the poll tax and Hestletine taking this as an opportunity to challenge her for the leadership.

Howe was deputy prime minister and resigned because thatcher refused to consider a common European monetary union having already been forced into the cataclysmic ERM which to his and Lawsons fury she withdraw from - he said so in his cricket analogy in his speech - the problem with you Tony is you try and sound knowledgable without any knowledge at all.

 

[martcov]

Merkel is going to push it all the way. And so will the EU.

Well that would be on a par with other countries then. It is a difficult problem and with the growth of the right it becomes less humane.

 

[martcov]

So you have forgotten that you said no child should be able to move from outside the EU. So why is it allowed inside the EU? If their parent comes here to work so do they. Or do you see them as lesser people?

Yes I have forgotten because I never said anything like that . Unless you show me where I said that. I suspect you made it up as usual.

 

[Astute]

And you didn't see it coming?

What is the difference between an EU economic migrant and a non EU economic migrant? After all they are human beings who want the same thing.

So they want to go to Germany, France or the UK. Germany and France are easy if open borders are in use. So many will try. Just like many try daily to get to the UK when there is even more sea to get across.

Open borders are a great idea on paper. But in reality it is totally different.

Wrong as usual. You have 3 months to be self sufficient in EU countries as an EU citizen. If not you can be deported.

Not everyone can work as a fruit picker and what happens after the season? A 70 year old refugee from Aleppo would be no help under your idea. What would his children and grand children do? Crazy idea.

As you were saying?

 

[Astute]

Well that would be on a par with other countries then. It is a difficult problem and with the growth of the right it becomes less humane.

Is that the growth of something that you say isn't a problem in Germany?

 

[Grendel]

Well that would be on a par with other countries then. It is a difficult problem and with the growth of the right it becomes less humane.

Why did you like Tony’s rubbish about the reason Howe resigned out of interest?

Because you are as thick and ignorant as he is about British politics?

 

[martcov]

As you were saying?

You said that the refugees should pick fruit. Normally fruit pickers are seasonal and don’t bring their children, but refugees do. How would refugees work long hours without someone to look after their children? How would older refugees do hard physical work? Crazy idea. Nothing like you claim I said. As usual.

 

[martcov]

Why did you like Tony’s rubbish about the reason Howe resigned out of interest?

Because you are as thick and ignorant as he is about British politics?

No. Because I remember about Geoffry Howe... I apologies if I was wrong... I used to see him around Fitzrovia in the 80s.. so, I was a bit interested then. But that was a long time ago.

 

[martcov]

Is that the growth of something that you say isn't a problem in Germany?

Here we go yet again... I said they are not a problem where I live.. 6% they got here. They are regional. You made the rest up. And yes they are a problem now in right wing Bavaria. Bavaria being the southern border of Germany and therefore most affected by the refugees in 2015. elections in October. Which is why Seehofer and Söder are worried that they may lose some right wing voters and therefore the overall majority. Merkel isn’t helping their election campaign. Theoretically if Seehofer breaks the coalition, the CDU could field candidates in Bavaria, which they never do because they are always in the same coalition. Merkel’s weapon- which may well be why she is steering clear of Bayern for the moment..

 

[dutchman]

You said that the refugees should pick fruit. Normally fruit pickers are seasonal and don’t bring their children, but refugees do. How would refugees work long hours without someone to look after their children?

Same as they do in their own country, take the kids with them, help them pick the fruit! :emoji_relaxed:

 

[martcov]

Same as they do in their own country, take the kids with them, help them pick the fruit! :emoji_relaxed:

Ok whatever. But do you think people fleeing a war are necessarily the same sort of people who do fruit picking? A lot of people won’t or can’t do that. Too much work. How would you force them?

Anyway I never said anything like what Astute said. I just think the idea of getting refugees to do hard field work is crazy.

 

[martcov]

Anyway just to annoy any Garage fans...Brexit's biggest campaign donor 'investigated by National Crime Agency over links to Russia'

 

[skybluetony176]

Why did you like Tony’s rubbish about the reason Howe resigned out of interest?

Because you are as thick and ignorant as he is about British politics?

Snigger. Says the man who claims that Thatcher wouldn’t go against the will of the people. Have you forgotten about the Poll tax protests? Have you forgotten about the Poll tax riots? Have you forgotten about the boycotts of paying the poll tax even when faced with prison? That was the original point afterall. Are you saying Howe didn’t reference the poll tax in his resignation speech?

 

[Astute]

You said that the refugees should pick fruit. Normally fruit pickers are seasonal and don’t bring their children, but refugees do. How would refugees work long hours without someone to look after their children? How would older refugees do hard physical work? Crazy idea. Nothing like you claim I said. As usual.

More twisting of words I see.

I said I would prefer those persecuted to come here rather than anyone who has an EU passport. You disagreed. Then you said about their parents and kids and how they couldn't pick fruit.

So EU migrants don't bring their families with them? Some don't but most do.