The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (62 Viewers)

[Astute]

At times it was higher. It depends on what periods you look at. It happened over decades and as I’ve already told you the peak was in the 40’s and early 50’s. Like I said, go and educate yourself, you sorely need it. It was actually said that there was a comparison, which there is. Even Grendull hit the nail on the head even though he didn’t realise it. Who’s our? No one else is arguing for you.

When was it higher?

Any chance of evidence for once?

 

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[skybluetony176]

When was it higher?

Any chance of evidence for once?

Go and read anything about Eamon De Valera and you will read all about mass emigration from Ireland under his rule. Go and read anything about the Anglo-Irish trade war and you will read all about the legacy of emigration caused by it (ironically it happened because of the divorce bill of Irish Independence from the U.K. and the protectionist policies of Eamon De Valera so a warning for brexit). It’s modern Irish history. You’re not a child, I’m not going to hold your hand, you’ll only dismiss anything I link anyway. Go and educate yourself.

 

[Astute]

Go and read anything about Eamon De Valera and you will read all about mass emigration from Ireland under his rule. Go and read anything about the Anglo-Irish trade war and you will read all about the legacy of emigration caused by it (ironically it happened because of the divorce bill of Irish Independence from the U.K. and the protectionist policies of Eamon De Valera so a warning for brexit). It’s modern Irish history. You’re not a child, I’m not going to hold your hand, you’ll only dismiss anything I link anyway. Go and educate yourself.

Under his rule? Like the link I put up in reply to your false information? There was one 5 year period where the population went down by half a percent. In every other period the population went up. Yet you compared it to up to 25% of the population leaving Romania. And yes Romanians also have big families.

I may be getting on a bit now. But I haven't gone senile yet. A little forgetful yes. But not as much as you would like.

Me read up? Evidence is the key. I have shown you plenty. Yet you tell me to find evidence for what you are saying that doesn't exist.

Well done. You are trying to start another shitfest to stop any chance if a debate. Bet you are proud of yourself.

 

[martcov]

This just another reason why I can't see it ending up as bad as those in the EU have continually made out. I still think it is their best chance of making us stay in.

Why would they want to cause pain throughout the EU just to prove a point?

Their rules and regulations are there to be bent and broke. They do it themselves when it suits.

It is us that is causing pain for the UK and Europe by leaving and then asking for our cake and eat it. Something that it is impossible for the EU to give us without upsetting the member states.

They are not going to break their rules for a non member state to suit the non member state.

 

[martcov]

Mostly coming IN.

It's also a great place for empty trucks to arrive with a fake manifest, drive straight back onto the ferry then claim a VAT refund for goods which never existed in the first place.

I always wondered why there were so many trucks in Dover and the Tunnel ( sarcasm). You are hinting that there will be less traffic at entry points because they won’t be able to pull that scam? How does that work? Why do they bother sending trucks? The trick here where I live is done on paper with invoices to and from Denmark. You don’t even need to send the goods. Just have plausible paperwork. People get caught regularly, but who knows how many don’t. The taxman knows these tricks.

 

[dutchman]

I always wondered why there were so many trucks in Dover and the Tunnel ( sarcasm). You are hinting that there will be less traffic at entry points because they won’t be able to pull that scam?

No, That may be the case but I wasn't thinking anything of the sort.

Why do they bother sending trucks?

To give the appearance of goods being moved. Every truck driver I've known has had to have his papers stamped to prove he arrived at his destination. Whether the truck is full or empty is immaterial. I believe there are random checks but the chances of being caught are slim.

 

[martcov]

No, That may be the case but I wasn't thinking anything of the sort.



To give the appearance of goods being moved. Every truck driver I've known has had to have his papers stamped to prove he arrived at his destination. Whether the truck is full or empty is immaterial. I believe there are random checks but the chances of being caught are slim.

The cases I know of here were paper. One Dane copied the letter headed paper of my mates invoice to him with VAT, printed several fake bills and claimed it back. Another beer wholesaler was claiming VAT back from beer crossing the Danish border. The first transaction was genuine, but after that he just made transactions up. Both got caught in the end because of their sudden boom in international trade didn’t fit in with their normal pattern.

In neither case did they bother sending empty trucks. I recall those sort of things happening when there were borders and you needed a customs stamp. Like the butter scandal between Holland and Belgium in order to claim subsidies.

 

[skybluetony176]

Under his rule? Like the link I put up in reply to your false information? There was one 5 year period where the population went down by half a percent. In every other period the population went up. Yet you compared it to up to 25% of the population leaving Romania. And yes Romanians also have big families.

I may be getting on a bit now. But I haven't gone senile yet. A little forgetful yes. But not as much as you would like.

Me read up? Evidence is the key. I have shown you plenty. Yet you tell me to find evidence for what you are saying that doesn't exist.

Well done. You are trying to start another shitfest to stop any chance if a debate. Bet you are proud of yourself.

You put a link up to population from the 1960’s onwards, I’ve already told you that the peak was the 1940’s into the 50’s so you’ve proved nothing. It’s also a graph of population. Its not an indicator of emigration or birth rates, in a country where they’ve traditionally bred like rabbits didn’t it seem strange to you that the population was stagnant and not growing?

Why do I need to post a link to historical facts? It’s the equivalent of me saying that Henry the Eighth was a king of England and you asking for a link to prove it and then claiming I’m giving out false information if I don’t. I’ve told you where to find the information, I’ve given you a name you’d never heard before in your life even though he’s the most influential important pivotal person in Ireland in the last century and I’ve told you the periods to look specifically at.

 

[Sick Boy]

Bollocks. It was said that the rate people were leaving Romania was the sane that left Ireland. You was in full agreement and argued for the point. Do you think our memories are that bad?

No it wasn't, it was highlighting a country that had high levels of emigration compared to its population at the time.

 

[Sick Boy]

to be fair to Raab, even taking into account his recent gaff, he's still an improvement on Davis who thought that when we leave the EU we'd be able to do individual trade deals with the remaining 27 EU countries. If it wasn't so tragic it would be hilarious.

It makes the country look like a fucking farce, even more so when some ignore it and seem to normalise it. Is really is setting the bar so low.

 

[martcov]

Missing trader fraud - Wikipedia

Also who mentioned anything about a 'manifesto'?

A manifest or customs manifest or "cargo document" is a document listing the cargo, passengers, and crew of a ship, aircraft, or vehicle, for the use of customs and other officials.

All fraudulent transactions in the Wiki example happened without moving anything. The first and last transaction being legal. Nothing about empty lorries.

 

[martcov]

It makes the country look like a fucking farce, even more so when some ignore it and seem to normalise it. Is really is setting the bar so low.

I see it as, Davis saw the problems, found an excuse to resign, Raab saw his chance for the big time, and now is cottoning on to the idea that he was set up by Davis. When May goes, Davis will be back in the fray for a top job and Raab will be toast.

 

[skybluetony176]

The fraud is only possible because the European Union Value Added Tax ("EU VAT") allows merchants to charge VAT on the sale of goods sold to buyers in another member state:

Missing trader fraud - Wikipedia

Figures released in September 2006 by Eurocanet, a project sponsored by the European Commission, appear to show that the United Kingdom is the main victim of this fraud – the UK lost an estimated €12.6 billion during 2005–06 – followed by Spain and Italy, which each lost over €2 billion. From 1 June 2007 the UK introduced changes to the way that VAT is charged on mobile phones and computer chips to help combat fraud. UK plans to introduce changes to the way VAT is charged on a wide range of goods from December 2006 were aborted because of failure to reach an agreement with other EU member states.

I think you’re getting fixated on the wording EU VAT and thinking that this is an EU problem. It’s just VAT, it isn’t disappearing the moment we leave and given that the government could cut VAT now as a member state of the EU and choose not to is a pretty good indicator that it won’t even go down. The fraud is happening within transactions in the U.K. no VAT is paid at entry on goods within the EU. VAT scam isn’t a new scenario created by the EU, it happened before we joined and it will continue to happen when we leave.

 

[Astute]

You put a link up to population from the 1960’s onwards, I’ve already told you that the peak was the 1940’s into the 50’s so you’ve proved nothing.

I put the link up from 1950 onwards. That was when there was a half percent drop. So not going to waste my time reading the rest of your diatribe.

 

[Astute]

No it wasn't, it was highlighting a country that had high levels of emigration compared to its population at the time.

As I keep asking when was it. I stated when it was at an epidemic rate. I got the piss took out of me for being badly wrong. That is why I will follow this to the end.

It would be easy to find out when 25% of the population of Ireland left. So why can't anyone find any evidence?

That is the problem with this thread. Someone says something. They state it as the truth. Then they keep up with the crap without showing evidence. But if anyone else comes out with anything they don't like they shout for evidence.

Who gives a fuck about how many people left Ireland many years ago? It is part of past history. But I don't like liars. And even worse is a liar that tells more and more lies to cover for their previous lies. Then they take the piss out of those who know their lies to be lies.

 

[skybluetony176]

I put the link up from 1950 onwards. That was when there was a half percent drop. So not going to waste my time reading the rest of your diatribe.

Link up to population not emigration. There’s a very distinct difference.

 

[Astute]

Link up to population not emigration. There’s a very distinct difference.

So if there was 25% of the population left where did the 25% come from to replace them?

And how come they were not replaced in Romania in the same way?

 

[skybluetony176]

As I keep asking when was it. I stated when it was at an epidemic rate. I got the piss took out of me for being badly wrong. That is why I will follow this to the end.

It would be easy to find out when 25% of the population of Ireland left. So why can't anyone find any evidence?

That is the problem with this thread. Someone says something. They state it as the truth. Then they keep up with the crap without showing evidence. But if anyone else comes out with anything they don't like they shout for evidence.

Who gives a fuck about how many people left Ireland many years ago? It is part of past history. But I don't like liars. And even worse is a liar that tells more and more lies to cover for their previous lies. Then they take the piss out of those who know their lies to be lies.

A few of literary thousands of articles and documents on the subject available online.

Traditions of emigration: The Irish habit of going away | Generation Emigration

Irish Emigration History | University College Cork

Migration: Emigration and Immigration since 1950 | Encyclopedia.com

http://time.com

It’s still happening too. Here’s some info on that.

https://www.migrationpolicy.org/sites/default/files/publications/TCM-Emigration-Ireland-FINAL.pdf

They’ve wrote hundreds of songs about it, not just from the potato famine either.

irish emigration songs - YouTube

A documentary on the subject of literary 100’s on the subject



Clearly lies. Do you want a link to king Henry the Eighth as well?

 

[Grendel]

This whole discussion seems to be based around some myth theory that Irish emigration has changed since EU membership - it’s bewildering

 

[skybluetony176]

So if there was 25% of the population left where did the 25% come from to replace them?

And how come they were not replaced in Romania in the same way?

Irish families especially Catholic families are traditionally large, do you really need telling that. My mum was one of twelve. My mums youngest sibling and eldest niece were classmates and best friends at school and my gran still went on to have two more babies who were unfortunately still born.

 

[skybluetony176]

This whole discussion seems to be based around some myth theory that Irish emigration has changed since EU membership - it’s bewildering

No it isn’t. The discussion is about economic migration from Ireland. Astute is in denial that it ever happened despite it being a massive part of Irish history and indeed Irish culture over the last 100 years.

 

[Grendel]

It was to highlight how EU membership has made Ireland more prosperous and reduced emigration. Unless you too believe that Irish emigration was only an issue during the Potato famine?

That’s rubbish

 

[Astute]

Irish families especially Catholic families are traditionally large, do you really need telling that. My mum was one of twelve. My mums youngest sibling and eldest niece were classmates and best friends at school and my gran still went on to have two more babies who were unfortunately still born.

Romanian families are traditionally large. So your point is?

Let's start again. Give you one more chance.

The Romanian population went down by about 25% in just a few years. You say the same happened in Ireland. Show the evidence.

 

[Astute]

No it isn’t. The discussion is about economic migration from Ireland. Astute is in denial that it ever happened despite it being a massive part of Irish history and indeed Irish culture over the last 100 years.

I am denying your lies that the Irish population went down by about 25%. Now you are trying to change the wording.

 

[Grendel]

From what I can see an average of around 30,000 per year left between 1945 and 1961 which was common with a lot of countries post war

In the 80’s there was around 22,000 a year leaving

In five years from 2009 25,000 a year left

There the argument that being in the EU has stabilised this trend is utter hogwash

 

[Grendel]

So if there was 25% of the population left where did the 25% come from to replace them?

And how come they were not replaced in Romania in the same way?

Half a million people left it seems from 45 to 61 but overall population was relatively static - at around 2.9 million so it’s 17% but over a 15 year period and of course some of those people will have returned during the same period - is just over 1% a year that significant? I would not say so.

Also why sick boy and I assume the gruesome twosome laugh at the potato famine comment I fail to get as 1.6 million left in a very short time period

 

[Sick Boy]

That’s rubbish

From what I can see an average of around 30,000 per year left between 1945 and 1961 which was common with a lot of countries post war

In the 80’s there was around 22,000 a year leaving

In five years from 2009 25,000 a year left

There the argument that being in the EU has stabilised this trend is utter hogwash

Tha main point was that EU membership has been highly beneficial to Ireland economically.

 

[Grendel]

Tha main point was that EU membership has been highly beneficial to Ireland.

You said it has reduced emigration which is not true is it?

Then you suggested the same could happen with Romania - well if the same happens they means a consistent annual outward flow from there for decades to come.

In 2009 to 14 many left - almost as many as post war - I assume to countries that offered better opportunity despite so called EU benefits

 

[Sick Boy]

You said it has reduced emigration which is not true is it?

Then you suggested the same could happen with Romania - well if the same happens they means a consistent annual outward flow from there for decades to come.

In 2009 to 14 many left - almost as many as post war - I assume to countries that offered better opportunity despite so called EU benefits

I clearly stated in the longer term, how long has Ireland been a member of the EU over 40 years, isn't it? Following 2008, emigration certainly increased. Prior to that though the Irish economy was doing incredibly well.

 

[Grendel]

I clearly stated in the longer term, how long has Ireland been a member of the EU over 40 years, isn't it? Following 2008, emigration certainly increased. Prior to that though the Irish economy was doing incredibly well.

There was equal numbers also leaving in the 80’s

Prior to EU membership from the peak in the early 60’s to 1971 the emigration figures was lower than the 80’s and post 2008 so there is zero evidence that Eu membership will stop outward flow but more likely increase it from poorer countries to those with greater opportunity

You laugh at astute but this argument is a joke

 

[Astute]

Half a million people left it seems from 45 to 61 but overall population was relatively static - at around 2.9 million so it’s 17% but over a 15 year period and of course some of those people will have returned during the same period - is just over 1% a year that significant? I would not say so.

Also why sick boy and I assume the gruesome twosome laugh at the potato famine comment I fail to get as 1.6 million left in a very short time period

The potato famine was the last time the Irish population dropped like recently in Romania. If I had stated about people leaving Ireland then long term Tony would have a slight point although still not as many. But the comment was population going down. He either can't or doesn't want to understand.

It would be like saying people have not been leaving the UK while our population has gone up. Many thousands have left every year.

 

[skybluetony176]

Romanian families are traditionally large. So your point is?

Let's start again. Give you one more chance.

The Romanian population went down by about 25% in just a few years. You say the same happened in Ireland. Show the evidence.

I note that you have ignored the multiple links I’ve posted for your benefit. Romania has an average family size of 2.7 per children per household which is currently also the same for Ireland currently. In Ireland for the period being discussed the average was nearer 4 per household.

 

[Sick Boy]

There was equal numbers also leaving in the 80’s

Prior to EU membership from the peak in the early 60’s to 1971 the emigration figures was lower than the 80’s and post 2008 so there is zero evidence that Eu membership will stop outward flow but more likely increase it from poorer countries to those with greater opportunity

You laugh at astute but this argument is a joke

To claim that the EU has not had major benefits and transformed Ireland is insane Brexit a reminder of how EU has benefited Republic

My original point was more in relation to how it has majorly transformed the Republic, yet rather depressingly the argument has returned to the evils of immigration into the UK, yet again.

If the UK remains relatively successful post-Brexit, immigration is not going to go down, which is going to end up with a lot of angry people.

 

[Astute]

Tha main point was that EU membership has been highly beneficial to Ireland economically.

Tony isn't pointing out how much Ireland has benefited from being in the EU. He is.....or was pointing out how much the population went down. Now it seems to have been reduced to how many have left.

 

[Astute]

I note that you have ignored the multiple links I’ve posted for your benefit. Romania has an average family size of 2.7 per children per household which is currently also the same for Ireland currently. In Ireland for the period being discussed the average was nearer 4 per household.

average romanian family size - Αναζήτηση Google:

Romania has the highest in the EU. Ireland is one of the lowest.