The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (285 Viewers)

[SkyblueBazza]

The difference is Rees Mogg is actively trying to engineer a hard Brexit which he knows will cause mayhem in order to profit from it.

Is that what he told you? If so you must be a very close associate

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[Brighton Sky Blue]

Your problem seems to be that it isn't getting obviously better for you rather than it is actually hard, believe me your generation has it easy & my generation had it easy compared to my parents. Your perspective is skewed.

The objective evidence shows this generation will be the first to be worse off than the one which came before. It is the first one to buck the trend you're talking about.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

So who are you blaming for everything?

If what they say about climate change is true it has taken more than 50 years to get to this stage. War? I think you need to look at your history a bit more. If you want to blame something for this try religion. Hitler was different. But religion came into it. Ask the Jews. I suppose bombs going off all over the world had no effect. Living wage? At least you now have a minimum wage and holiday pay. In my younger days there was no minimum wage or holiday pay. If you took time off you didn't get paid.

You seem to think those older than you had it easy. Why don't you ask those older than yourself. I worked about 80 hours a week to earn enough to live on. That was either 6 or 7 days a week. I also had to study to get where I am now.

I am not saying it is easy these days. I am not saying that universities should all charge the full amount. I am not saying that you should start off with a lit of debt. But it was the choice you made. And it certainly wasn't easy for my generation.

• Man made climate change first kicked off in the industrial revolution. Since populations and technology have advanced tremendously since then, the effects have surged in the past 30-40 years because few people at the time cared. Weather records are being broken every year now and sooner or later parts of the world will become uninhabitable. We are very close to if not already past the point of no return on this.
• War has been with us for thousands of years. However the need to play world police has meant a litany of failed interventions in one particular region which has destabilised it and turned Islamic extremism into a security threat and a cause of multiple humanitarian crises. Nobody objected to raising armies to defeat Hitler. But Labour and Tory politicians of the '80s through to '10s have committed us to invasions of far flung places which present no threat.
• Jobs are less secure, less likely to meet high living costs and are harder to come by. There is no job for life as there once used to be and at 28 I am already on my 4th. When I left school in 2008 it was at the height of the worst recession since 1929-where exactly could I have found employment instead of going to university at that time? More to the point, are you saying that the young people of today should accept being ripped off to the hilt to pursue higher education?

Yes historically generations have had things easier than the ones before them. But this time we have reached the critical mass of climate change, poor economic management and failed military interventions. And you can add Brexit to the pile as well.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

If it's not claimed then how needed is it really ??

In the latest Budget the tax free threshold was pledged to be raised to around £12k. Think about how far £1k a month really goes at the moment, if you're covering rent, car, 1-2 children etc. It isn't enough. So even for those in work the money just doesn't stretch far enough and they need welfare to make up the difference. If we took steps to make wages higher and jobs more secure the welfare bill would shrink overnight and people would have more money in their pocket to spend in the process.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Indeed. Like assisting Romania in infrastructure projects as an EU net contributor

The better things are there the less likely people are to try and move here, which I thought you'd be in favour of?

 

[Astute]

• Man made climate change first kicked off in the industrial revolution. Since populations and technology have advanced tremendously since then, the effects have surged in the past 30-40 years because few people at the time cared. Weather records are being broken every year now and sooner or later parts of the world will become uninhabitable. We are very close to if not already past the point of no return on this.
• War has been with us for thousands of years. However the need to play world police has meant a litany of failed interventions in one particular region which has destabilised it and turned Islamic extremism into a security threat and a cause of multiple humanitarian crises. Nobody objected to raising armies to defeat Hitler. But Labour and Tory politicians of the '80s through to '10s have committed us to invasions of far flung places which present no threat.
• Jobs are less secure, less likely to meet high living costs and are harder to come by. There is no job for life as there once used to be and at 28 I am already on my 4th. When I left school in 2008 it was at the height of the worst recession since 1929-where exactly could I have found employment instead of going to university at that time? More to the point, are you saying that the young people of today should accept being ripped off to the hilt to pursue higher education?

Yes historically generations have had things easier than the ones before them. But this time we have reached the critical mass of climate change, poor economic management and failed military interventions. And you can add Brexit to the pile as well.

The recessions in the 70's and 80's were worse

UK recessions since 1945: how they compare

Those who bought a house and managed to keep paying when mortgage rates went up to about 15%........Yes 15% and not record low levels like now and with mass unemployment.

Older generations had it easier? Would you like to explain how you came to this point? The biggest difference is pensions. You can say thanks to Gordon Brown for the demise of the final salary pensions.

And how do you blame the certain generations you are having another dig at for global warming? What information did they ignore? Look at how many cars were on the road then and now. Look at how many people flew then and now. How about the catastrophic pollution which is made in the name of battery and wind power production. Fracking isn't that good either.

When I was a kid double glazing and central heating was new. Hardly anyone had it. You had to wrap up inside your house when the weather got bad. Shopping cost more as there wasn't an over supply of supermarkets like there is now. A lot more if income went on food. Just like it did if you could afford to run a car. And they were not reliable either. University was mainly for the rich and well off only.

I have constantly said that I am worried for the youth of today. But don't try to make out that all generations before had it easy because they didn't. I had to work 6 or 7 days a week and study at the same time. And that was working at least 12 hours a day. No holiday pay.

Have you asked the older generations how hard life was? Yes it got better over the years. But it was easy because life was so hard.

 

[Otis]

The recessions in the 70's and 80's were worse

UK recessions since 1945: how they compare

Those who bought a house and managed to keep paying when mortgage rates went up to about 15%........Yes 15% and not record low levels like now and with mass unemployment.

Older generations had it easier? Would you like to explain how you came to this point? The biggest difference is pensions. You can say thanks to Gordon Brown for the demise of the final salary pensions.

And how do you blame the certain generations you are having another dig at for global warming? What information did they ignore? Look at how many cars were on the road then and now. Look at how many people flew then and now. How about the catastrophic pollution which is made in the name of battery and wind power production. Fracking isn't that good either.

When I was a kid double glazing and central heating was new. Hardly anyone had it. You had to wrap up inside your house when the weather got bad. Shopping cost more as there wasn't an over supply of supermarkets like there is now. A lot more if income went on food. Just like it did if you could afford to run a car. And they were not reliable either. University was mainly for the rich and well off only.

I have constantly said that I am worried for the youth of today. But don't try to make out that all generations before had it easy because they didn't. I had to work 6 or 7 days a week and study at the same time. And that was working at least 12 hours a day. No holiday pay.

Have you asked the older generations how hard life was? Yes it got better over the years. But it was easy because life was so hard.

Geez, you are as bad as me with the not sleeping and getting up at all hours.

 

[Astute]

In the latest Budget the tax free threshold was pledged to be raised to around £12k. Think about how far £1k a month really goes at the moment, if you're covering rent, car, 1-2 children etc. It isn't enough. So even for those in work the money just doesn't stretch far enough and they need welfare to make up the difference. If we took steps to make wages higher and jobs more secure the welfare bill would shrink overnight and people would have more money in their pocket to spend in the process.

There never used to be a minimum wage. There were not top ups like there is now. If you needed more money you had to work more hours if you could get them. But a lot if the time you were lucky to have a job.

 

[Astute]

Geez, you are as bad as me with the not sleeping and getting up at all hours.

I've been up all night :wacky:

 

[Otis]

I've been up all night :wacky:

Oh, okay, touche then.

I have been up since 3.

 

[Astute]

Oh, okay, touche then.

I have been up since 3.

Been up since 1pm yesterday afternoon. Grabbed a couple of hours sleep. Still wide awake. Will wait for wife to wake up then climb into a lovely warm bed.

 

[Otis]

I'm going to stay up now for the cricket.

 

[dutchman]

I've been up all night :wacky:

I think it may be something going around as I haven't slept properly for four days now?

 

[Astute]

I think it may be something going around as I haven't slept properly for four days now?

Life is too short to sleep. Sleep for 8 hours a day = 1/3 Of your life.

 

[Otis]

Life is too short to sleep. Sleep for 8 hours a day = 1/3 Of your life.

That thought used to be the bane of my life when I was younger.

Used to try so hard not to sleep and live every single moment. Used to really make me fret. Even wrote a play about it.

Doesn't bother me so much these days though.

 

[clint van damme]

Is that what he told you? If so you must be a very close associate

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Some things you can figure out for yourself, well, some people can.

 

[dutchman]

I see things are going well in France...

One killed and hundreds injured in French anti-Macron protests



One protester has died and more than a hundred were injured after a nationwide wave of peaceful protests aimed at French president Emmanuel Macron turned to tragedy.

Demonstrators from the gilets jaunes – yellow vests – movement had called for people to turn out and gridlock France’s road network to show their anger at increases in fuel taxes.

As early-morning demonstrators gathered around the country, one person was killed at Pont-de-Beauvoisin in the south-east Savoie region. The local prefect, Louis Laugier, said a motorist taking one of her children to the doctor had been stopped by protesters at a roundabout, but ran over a 63-year-old woman after demonstrators began banging on the roof of her car. “It appears the woman panicked, accelerated and ran over a person who died,” Laugier said. The driver was arrested.

Across France, 106 people were injured, five seriously. In Arras in the north a 71-year-old demonstrator struck by a car suffered serious injuries. Police said most of the accidents were caused by drivers colliding with crowds of protesters as they tried to force their way through roadblocks.

 

[clint van damme]

If it's not claimed then how needed is it really ??

I'm sure that's the case in some instances.
But there are a myriad of reasons why benefits go unclaimed.
I was watching a documentary set in Dorset but I'm sure this would be replicated in rural areas all over the country.

People living miles away from the benefits office have missed appointments due to the bus not turning up because of cuts to services and their benefits have been lost so in the they just give up.
These were people who work when works available but most of the work was seasonal paying minimum wage in the tourist industry.
A lot of people are being badly let down in this country at the moment.

 

[Grendel]

The better things are there the less likely people are to try and move here, which I thought you'd be in favour of?

That has already proved a fallacy when we discussed Irish emigration

 

[Ashdown]

I'm sure that's the case in some instances.
But there are a myriad of reasons why benefits go unclaimed.
I was watching a documentary set in Dorset but I'm sure this would be replicated in rural areas all over the country.

People living miles away from the benefits office have missed appointments due to the bus not turning up because of cuts to services and their benefits have been lost so in the they just give up.
These were people who work when works available but most of the work was seasonal paying minimum wage in the tourist industry.
A lot of people are being badly let down in this country at the moment.

I don't disagree at all. Just the division between North and South is appalling. So much investment around London whilst other old industrial areas are left to rot......and then you got the guy from the FA or from Persimmon. Obscene !

 

[SIR ERNIE]

Here’s my take on the way Brexit will develop:
May survives a VOC.
May’s plan gets rejected in HOC.
May agrees to a 2nd referendum.
Remain wins, job done for May-the-Remainer.
UK remains in EU.
New anti-EU party forms, splitting the Con and Lab parties.
Fights next GE and wins.
UK leave EU.

 

[Captain Dart]

The objective evidence shows this generation will be the first to be worse off than the one which came before. It is the first one to buck the trend you're talking about.

What objective evidence? There is none, you are talking about predictions & opinions and there are always doomsayers out there.
There is one common thread with predictions, they are nearly always wrong.

 

[Ashdown]

Here’s my take on the way Brexit will develop:
May survives a VOC.
May’s plan gets rejected in HOC.
May agrees to a 2nd referendum.
Remain wins, job done for May-the-Remainer.
UK remains in EU.
New anti-EU party forms, splitting the Con and Lab parties.
Fights next GE and wins.
UK leave EU.

Oh God it's dragged on long enough ! Mind you, not sure what the news casters would fill their programming with now.

 

[Grendel]

Here’s my take on the way Brexit will develop:
May survives a VOC.
May’s plan gets rejected in HOC.
May agrees to a 2nd referendum.
Remain wins, job done for May-the-Remainer.
UK remains in EU.
New anti-EU party forms, splitting the Con and Lab parties.
Fights next GE and wins.
UK leave EU.

Apparently there are not even 48 letters to trigger a no confidence vote.

I’m not happy with the proposal but I believe it may on a second reading squeeze through

 

[Captain Dart]

Apparently there are not even 48 letters to trigger a no confidence vote.

I’m not happy with the proposal but I believe it may on a second reading squeeze through

I think the potential rebels are seeing which way the wind blows over the weekend but my feeling is there are not quite enough letters at the moment and Gove, Rudd, Mordant, Fox and Leadsom remaining in the Cabinet has taken the steam out of any rebellion untill the actual commons vote, if that fails or they quit then there will be plenty of letters.

 

[skybluetony176]

I think the potential rebels are seeing which way the wind blows over the weekend but my feeling is there are not quite enough letters at the moment and Gove, Rudd, Mordant, Fox and Leadsom remaining in the Cabinet has taken the steam out of any rebellion untill the actual commons vote, if that fails or they quit then there will be plenty of letters.

Which is odd because the rebels were trying to claim that there was 48 letters plus at least a dozen on Thursday afternoon and then by the time question time was aired Thursday night it was 84 letters were in. They’ve tried to bluff a resignation out of the PM and failed is how it looks at the moment. The latest comments from the rebels is they’ll have 48 some time next week. The rebels have made themselves look a right bunch of snakes to the point where they’ve probably made TM look stronger than she has at any point during her tenure. Which fair enough is a low starting point but what does it say about the rebels looking to dispose her and their would be leaders looking to step in? Not a lot. She clearly isn’t going to go by choice and the rebels are a self indulgent minority. I think the truth about Gove, Fox, Leadsome etc is that the reality not the pipe dream of brexit has hit them and they know the pipe dream is just that so they’re stopping and fighting for the best possible reality of brexit they can. It still won’t be near the pipe dream though.

 

[Sick Boy]

Here’s my take on the way Brexit will develop:
May survives a VOC.
May’s plan gets rejected in HOC.
May agrees to a 2nd referendum.
Remain wins, job done for May-the-Remainer.
UK remains in EU.
New anti-EU party forms, splitting the Con and Lab parties.
Fights next GE and wins.
UK leave EU.

Why would there need to be another anti-EU party when there is UKIP?

 

[Sick Boy]

Apparently there are not even 48 letters to trigger a no confidence vote.

I’m not happy with the proposal but I believe it may on a second reading squeeze through

I think that you may well be right, I don't think 5 looking to amend it will get anywhere though.

I still maintain the EEA would be the most sensible move and go someway to repair the divisions within society.

 

[Sick Boy]

Which is odd because the rebels were trying to claim that there was 48 letters plus at least a dozen on Thursday afternoon and then by the time question time was aired Thursday night it was 84 letters were in. They’ve tried to bluff a resignation out of the PM and failed is how it looks at the moment. The latest comments from the rebels is they’ll have 48 some time next week. The rebels have made themselves look a right bunch of snakes to the point where they’ve probably made TM look stronger than she has at any point during her tenure. Which fair enough is a low starting point but what does it say about the rebels looking to dispose her and their would be leaders looking to step in? Not a lot. She clearly isn’t going to go by choice and the rebels are a self indulgent minority. I think the truth about Gove, Fox, Leadsome etc is that the reality not the pipe dream of brexit has hit them and they know the pipe dream is just that so they’re stopping and fighting for the best possible reality of brexit they can. It still won’t be near the pipe dream though.

Johnson, Rees-Mogg have shown themselves to be busted flushes and lacking in anything constructive towards the debate. I do think that more and more people are realising that a lot of what was claimed, such as being able to enjoy the benefits of the SM without being in it, were complete fabrications.

 

[chiefdave]

I'm not convinced its all not a big wind up.

Trying to make David Davies, who didn't realise we couldn't negotiate deals with individual EU member countries, and Dominic Rabb, who didn't realise we relied on the Dover - Calais crossing, competent we now have leave supporting Conservative MP Nadine Dorris complaining we won't have any MEPs!

 

[clint van damme]

Here’s my take on the way Brexit will develop:
May survives a VOC.
May’s plan gets rejected in HOC.
May agrees to a 2nd referendum.
Remain wins, job done for May-the-Remainer.
UK remains in EU.
New anti-EU party forms, splitting the Con and Lab parties.
Fights next GE and wins.
UK leave EU.

I would not be surprised if we didn't see an outcome similar to that, (Not sure about an anti EU party winning a GE because I think it would attract too many of the type of crack pots UKIP attracts)
Personally, at the moment, I couldn't vote remain in a 2nd referendum even though I think remain is the correct choice because it doesn't sit right with me having a 2nd referendum.

The evidence of dodgy goings on between Bannon, Banks garage, Cambridge Analytica etc is growing and there is a point where I would change my mind if I thought there was too much interference in the original vote but I'm not at that point yet.

 

[Grendel]

The recessions in the 70's and 80's were worse

UK recessions since 1945: how they compare

Those who bought a house and managed to keep paying when mortgage rates went up to about 15%........Yes 15% and not record low levels like now and with mass unemployment.

Older generations had it easier? Would you like to explain how you came to this point? The biggest difference is pensions. You can say thanks to Gordon Brown for the demise of the final salary pensions.

And how do you blame the certain generations you are having another dig at for global warming? What information did they ignore? Look at how many cars were on the road then and now. Look at how many people flew then and now. How about the catastrophic pollution which is made in the name of battery and wind power production. Fracking isn't that good either.

When I was a kid double glazing and central heating was new. Hardly anyone had it. You had to wrap up inside your house when the weather got bad. Shopping cost more as there wasn't an over supply of supermarkets like there is now. A lot more if income went on food. Just like it did if you could afford to run a car. And they were not reliable either. University was mainly for the rich and well off only.

I have constantly said that I am worried for the youth of today. But don't try to make out that all generations before had it easy because they didn't. I had to work 6 or 7 days a week and study at the same time. And that was working at least 12 hours a day. No holiday pay.

Have you asked the older generations how hard life was? Yes it got better over the years. But it was easy because life was so hard.

The pension point is the most relevant point. Labour have wrecked the hopes of working class people with Browns policy and no one says a word about it

 

[Ashdown]

The behaviour of the EU in all this has not sat right with me for months now. Their blatant policy to try and overturn the democratic vote by stalling and rejecting almost everything shows a desperation by people who have gained way too much power, way too quickly. I don't like how they have tried to interfere in Italy, Hungary, Greece and Portugal etc either, they were not set up to be overlords, they were set up to organise a common market for a small collection of countries.

 

[Astute]

That thought used to be the bane of my life when I was younger.

Used to try so hard not to sleep and live every single moment. Used to really make me fret. Even wrote a play about it.

Doesn't bother me so much these days though.

I still party hard at times. Still show the younger ones how it is done. The problem is that I'm falling to bits. The joints can only take a certain amount of manual work. My head wakes up first. I then have to wait for my body to wake up.

 

[dutchman]

I don't like how they have tried to interfere in Italy, Hungary, Greece and Portugal etc

I do, it makes it all the more likely those countries will either leave or be kicked out.