The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (204 Viewers)

[martcov]

Ps Corbyn just talks total nonsense on the subject. He said it’s not credible for government to propose a deal ‘to reduce our powers to decide our relationships in future’. I presume he means trading relationships. Labours proposal (other than force general election - which at present is disgraceful politicising, the subject is far too important to try to turn it into a power grab) has always suggested a long term customs union, which would mean free/wider trade agreements with other countries are basically ruled out.

Negotiations and agreements - Trade - European Commission

 

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[Sick Boy]

Agree with Tony. The detail in a Norway deal would be no more acceptable to Leavers than Mays current withdrawal agreement, which for me (whilst I appreciate I might be in a minority of one !), barring being able to find a way to exit the backstop unilaterally (possibly after a time limit/if new EU rules implemented disadvantage the UK) is probably the best compromise available to deliver an orderly exit at present. Ultimately if it is genuinely accepted by the EU as a temporary arrangement, the withdrawal agreement ‘should’ (or certainly could) lead to a sensible wider trade agreement.

Norway option is worst of all Brexit outcomes for UK, say EU sources

I think that a compromise needs to be found that goes some way to healing the divisions. The some go on you’d think leave won by a landslide, it didn’t.

 

[CCFCSteve]

Not sure your point Martin. Mine was that Corbyn was suggesting that the current withdrawal agreement/backstop reduces our powers to decide future relationships (which is correct), however, his proposal is customer union forever which means we have the same/even less power to decide them longer term ie he’s arguing against a point where his solution is same/worse

 

[CCFCSteve]

I think that a compromise needs to be found that goes some way to healing the divisions. The some go on you’d think leave won by a landslide, it didn’t.

Agree. I was saying Mays withdrawal agreement (however unpopular) does try to reflect that. That’s why both many rabid Brexiteers and remainers dont like it....it gives neither what they truly want. If comfort regarding exit from backstop could be provided I really don’t understand what a majority of peoples issues with it are (in terms of a compromise). Bearing in mind it is supposed to be transitional leading to a longer term agreement.

 

[Grappa]

This is interesting:

Overall a downward trend with the UK's feelings dropping most. But look how close the lines between EU and non-EU are compared to the other countries.

 

[Sick Boy]

This is interesting:

Overall a downward trend with the UK's feelings dropping most. But look how close the lines between EU and non-EU are compared to the other countries.

Looks like I better get tanning ASAP, in the 3 years I was there before I only got anything remotely unpleasant a couple of times, one time when a woman screamed at me and my cousins who were visiting from Limerick to speak Italian in Italy.

I was surprised she could tell they were speaking English.

 

[Alan Dugdales Moustache]

Yes, I can see that, but the attitude of some was "you lost, get over it". The hard brexiteers saw this "right wing coup" as an opportunity to push through deregulation of worker's rights and enviromental rules. A free for all. Having tried to ignore the remainers, and at the same time some louder figures pushing for a hard Brexit, there should be no surprise at the pushback from people who see that the way Brexit that is evolving won't have economic benefits for most people and is not the answer to the wealth and opportunity gap. May and co don't want the Norway model as they say it doesn't stop FOM. Stopping FOM is seen as a major reason for Brexit by many.

I see the problem of a second referendum landing a similar result to the first and therefore confirming the stalemate. The Norway model would have been more acceptable to most people, but it does look as if the relatively narrow victory was taken literally as 'the will of the people' by some, and expectations were high that we would just leave having used our strong hand to get a cake and eat it deal. The victors have screwed it up, but they will blame May.

So now it's back to the reality of a totally split country with the threat of another referendum looming. This has proved 1. that we are not good at referenda, and 2. the EU of 27 sovereign nations is actually capable of working together to acheive an aim. Neither of which was considered by the people who wanted a referendum.

Blah, Blah, blah. You keep pedaling the same thing over and over and over and over again. Nobody who disagrees with you is going to be persuaded by the monotonous, repetitive , self promoting crap that you pedal. You seem to have hijacked this thread as your own, but you're not going to persuade anyone who disagrees with you that anything you say is no more than a tantrum because you aren't getting what you wanted. There's just a little more to life than this incessant ranting and raving about something that is completely beyond your control.

 

[Astute]

Yeah, some. And then you shut up about them and haven't mentioned your galaxy brain betting skills since. Wonder why. Bullshitter.

Remember the election when you said you only ever vote labour and then spent the next few months disparaging everything they did? Bit like your voting remain isn't it? Weird.

Disagreeing with you and calling out your bullshitting tendencies is really not being a keyboard warrior though. If you were in a pub with me and started the nonsense you come out with here then I would still call it out. Don't like bullshitting know-it-alls. Never have.

So what you are saying is because I an a Labour voter I should never see any bad in Labour. And because I wanted to stay in the EU I should not mention any bad about the EU?

And yes any time an idiot like yourself questioned any bet I said about I proved it. Just like when I got big odds on us voting for Brexit.

You are just full of shit and have had enough of trying to be nice to you and trying to have a debate with you. But it is hard to have a debate with an idiot.

Goodbye.

 

[martcov]

Blah, Blah, blah. You keep pedaling the same thing over and over and over and over again. Nobody who disagrees with you is going to be persuaded by the monotonous, repetitive , self promoting crap that you pedal. You seem to have hijacked this thread as your own, but you're not going to persuade anyone who disagrees with you that anything you say is no more than a tantrum because you aren't getting what you wanted. There's just a little more to life than this incessant ranting and raving about something that is completely beyond your control.

I am not trying to convince you of anything. I am not ranting and raving. I am just having a conversation or stating a point of view on a forum. Have the pubs closed or did you leave early?

 

[Grappa]

Looks like I better get tanning ASAP, in the 3 years I was there before I only got anything remotely unpleasant a couple of times, one time when a woman screamed at me and my cousins who were visiting from Limerick to speak Italian in Italy.

I was surprised she could tell they were speaking English.

I was surprised by the Italian scores as well. But many may have negative feelings but never act upon them? Dunno. And whilst Oirish is pretty far from English neither are Italian!

 

[Grappa]

So what you are saying is because I an a Labour voter I should never see any bad in Labour. And because I wanted to stay in the EU I should not mention any bad about the EU?

And yes any time an idiot like yourself questioned any bet I said about I proved it. Just like when I got big odds on us voting for Brexit.

You are just full of shit and have had enough of trying to be nice to you and trying to have a debate with you. But it is hard to have a debate with an idiot.

Goodbye.

Stop bullshitting and bigging yourself up and we'll get along fine.

 

[Alan Dugdales Moustache]

I am not trying to convince you of anything. I am not ranting and raving. I am just having a conversation or stating a point of view on a forum. Have the pubs closed or did you leave early?

No pubs, but if you want to use that as an excuse to tell me (and of course everyone else) how successful your EU pub is doing then go ahead.
I don't spend hour after hour on here trying to ram the same bullshit down everyone's throat day in, day out. I just pop in late evening for a bit of entertainment. I can join in and then just leave it for hours , days or weeks, whereas you are so self obsessed you can't let go.
We all know what your opinion is, you've made it crystal clear. So why go on and on and on about it. Insecure ? Accept that others will disagree and move on. No one else seems as het up about this as you are.

 

[Astute]

I am not trying to convince you of anything. I am not ranting and raving. I am just having a conversation or stating a point of view on a forum. Have the pubs closed or did you leave early?

But you have never tried having a debate. All you have ever done is push one view over.

 

[Grappa]

But you have never tried having a debate. All you have ever done is push one view over.

Then I'm not sure that you actually understand what a debate is. A debate is a discussion about a subject on which people have different views. All I have done is to have a debate. I have no idea what you're trying to do. You start off with 'I voted remain' and then all your arguments are anti-EU. Then you say you are being 'balanced' when you most obviously are not. That's arguing in bad faith. I voted remain and I argue for remain. And for the 500th time, no, that does not fucking mean that I think the EU is perfect.

 

[dutchman]

That isn't what he is doing? He offered other solutions after that message.

Oh yeah?

Donald Tusk: No deal or no Brexit if UK parliament rejects May’s deal

“If this deal is rejected in the House of Commons,” Tusk said, the only options remaining would be “no deal or no Brexit at all.”

 

[clint van damme]

Oh yeah?

Donald Tusk: No deal or no Brexit if UK parliament rejects May’s deal

“If this deal is rejected in the House of Commons,” Tusk said, the only options remaining would be “no deal or no Brexit at all.”

BUSTED!

He's probably right. If Mays agreement doesn't get accepted it's unlikely there's time to get another one sorted.
We're probably going to need to squeeze a Tory leadership contest in as well.

 

[martcov]

But you have never tried having a debate. All you have ever done is push one view over.

Coming from you that takes the biscuit. That’s actually what people do in a debate. I back my view up with facts or opinions based on facts. If you just come on and say blah blah blah and some crap, then that is not trying to have a debate.

 

[martcov]

No pubs, but if you want to use that as an excuse to tell me (and of course everyone else) how successful your EU pub is doing then go ahead.
I don't spend hour after hour on here trying to ram the same bullshit down everyone's throat day in, day out. I just pop in late evening for a bit of entertainment. I can join in and then just leave it for hours , days or weeks, whereas you are so self obsessed you can't let go.
We all know what your opinion is, you've made it crystal clear. So why go on and on and on about it. Insecure ? Accept that others will disagree and move on. No one else seems as het up about this as you are.

I have never mentioned how well or not my pub is doing. You said I was sneering at pub goers. I had to answer that crap. Astute mentioned about people moving in and complaining about the noise from existing properties and I agreed with him and gave my example and mentioned an event in my pub . Why I mentioned pubs in your case is the timing of your aggressive and ill informed posts. As you say, you come on for entertainment. It seems that, judging by your behaviour, the entertainment is coming on after a few pints ( no, I cannot know that for a fact ), and having a go at someone who has a different point of view from yourself. We all know you voted leave for your kids. It is not going well and has split the country. You even said your kids aren’t bothered. You are obviously angry about that, and then you ask me if I‘m insecure. Weird.

 

[martcov]

The Norway option would certainly be a compromise between the two but the May positioned herself and has continued to do so would make anyone think that Leave won with a landslide. It didn’t and therefore a compromise between the two needs to be made, otherwise the country is going to be divided and weakened in the long term future.

And the government should actually listen to these communities who feel left behind and actually invest and turn their attention away from London and the south east

Report just out saying the same thing:

North hit hardest by austerity, according to study

 

[Macca]

Fucking hell is this still rolling on Anybody with an iota of sense can see where things are going. It will never happen. Then we can stop listening to fanatical supporters of a German led empire calling opponents Nazis

 

[clint van damme]

Fucking hell is this still rolling on Anybody with an iota of sense can see where things are going. It will never happen. Then we can stop listening to fanatical supporters of a German led empire calling opponents Nazis

I know, imagine debating one of the biggest political events of a generation just as it reaches a crucial point of the process - what we like?!

 

[skybluegod]

I have stated already on this thread my reasons for leaving the EU as I believe there will be an inevitable political and fiscal union and an inevitable drain on contributions to support an increasing number of poorer states. One thing I agree on Corbyn and Mcdonnell is that we should not as a nation have an elected government unable to carry out its economic strategy without permission from a parliament in Brussels which half of the EU populous do not even care about (according to the "very positive" 2018 survey)

However, unlike you I have said it was folly to ignore the fact that the 48% who voted to stay and therefore all people need to find a middle ground of compromise. Any normal private business leader would have looked at the alternatives and found a way out. The glaringly obvious move would have been to agree to a Norway style arrangements. It ticks a lot of boxes for leavers and crucially is not a complete separation for remainers - so it is a compromise deal that honours the spirit of the vote but delivers a sensible intent;

We have a reduced financial contribution
We have some ability to trade elsewhere
We have sovereign identity and the laws from the EU are far more restricted in number

Unfortunately you and your ilk believe a second referendum will somehow reverse the decision and eliminate the opposition So if 48% are against the EU next tine around they need to like it or lump it.

The notion "afraid of democracy" - which you have used will bring further division and alienation.

They will of course not lump it. There will be incredible outrage at the EU from them and they will feel even more alienated by the political classes at Westminster. Many have never voted before and will feel anger and resentment. It will not lead to a positive outcome and there would immediately be calls to reverse the decision again. Given the polls are not that dissimilar to last time until the referendum was called it is not beyond possibility that Leave will win again. Then what? It would be utter carnage and we would almost certainly crash out.

I have been convinced for some time that May and her cronies are stage managing a defeat so we can return to the Brussels empire. It is stupid and it will end badly. Parliament will be in contempt with the electorate and vast areas of the country will believe that their voice counts for absolutely nothing. A dangerous place to be.

There are some suggestions that polar opposites in the Tory party are pushing for the Norway solution. For the sake of the country they need to succeed and the country needs to rally to the cause.

Probably one of the best posts I have seen on SBT!

 

[martcov]

Probably one of the best posts I have seen on SBT!

Yes, but unfortunately not all leavers would accept Norway. Many remainers would, if it meant we could move on.

Me and my ilk would like a second referendum, but would only be happy if there was a majority decision,say, of 60% plus. Either way actually. What do people like me gain if it is 52/48 again, but for remain? The country is still split and there is no clear mandate for remain. The uncertainty and the rage continues, just the people saying „you lost, get over it“ will have changed.

 

[Grappa]

Yes, but unfortunately not all leavers would accept Norway. Many remainers would, if it meant we could move on.

Me and my ilk would like a second referendum, but would only be happy if there was a majority decision,say, of 60% plus. Either way actually. What do people like me gain if it is 52/48 again, but for remain? The country is still split and there is no clear mandate for remain. The uncertainty and the rage continues, just the people saying „you lost, get over it“ will have changed.

I understand where you're coming from with this but my opinion is that if 52% was enough to get us into this mess then it should also be enough to get us out. And then parliament should agree to never put a decision of this complexity and magnitude to the people in future without the majority threshold you allude to above.

 

[skybluegod]

Yes, but unfortunately not all leavers would accept Norway. Many remainers would, if it meant we could move on.

Me and my ilk would like a second referendum, but would only be happy if there was a majority decision,say, of 60% plus. Either way actually. What do people like me gain if it is 52/48 again, but for remain? The country is still split and there is no clear mandate for remain. The uncertainty and the rage continues, just the people saying „you lost, get over it“ will have changed.

Yes but not everyone will be happy. That's life, it is about making the majority happy.

Imo the majority don't want another referendum. It it the thing I personally want least, and i voted remain.

 

[ccfchoi87]

I understand where you're coming from with this but my opinion is that if 52% was enough to get us into this mess then it should also be enough to get us out. And then parliament should agree to never put a decision of this complexity and magnitude to the people in future without the majority threshold you allude to above.

So 52% is only fine if it’s in your favour?

 

[Grappa]

So 52% is only fine if it’s in your favour?

To maintain the status quo rather than plunge us into the unknown, yes.

 

[martcov]

Yes but not everyone will be happy. That's life, it is about making the majority happy.

Imo the majority don't want another referendum. It it the thing I personally want least, and i voted remain.

The majority don’t want May‘s deal , or no deal, or Norway, or Canada+. This isn’t a yes/no issue, which is why we are where we are. We should never have been given the simple question: leave or remain. We are a parliamentary democracy with a sovereign parliament. We don’t usually do referenda, and now we can see why.

 

[martcov]

Yes but not everyone will be happy. That's life, it is about making the majority happy.

Imo the majority don't want another referendum. It it the thing I personally want least, and i voted remain.

I also understand your point about being remain and not wanting a second vote. But, the alternative that is on the table now, or no deal are not in the interests of the country and are not supported by the majority. It is the worst possible situation. No one is happy.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

I also understand your point about being remain and not wanting a second vote. But, the alternative that is on the table now, or no deal are not in the interests of the country and are not supported by the majority. It is the worst possible situation. No one is happy.

tbf I feel a bit sorry for May. As you say, nobody's happy, but finding something a majority *would* accept is easier said than done.

 

[Grappa]

tbf I feel a bit sorry for May. As you say, nobody's happy, but finding something a majority *would* accept is easier said than done.

She has forced us into this shitty position because of her determination to end freedom of movement. 'queue jumpers', 'citizens of nowhere', Windrush, 'go home' vans, 'hostile environment'.
No, sorry, no sympathy from me.

 

[SkyblueBazza]

To maintain the status quo rather than plunge us into the unknown, yes.

There is no status quo...as many have said - including Grendel most recently (from what I can see) - the idealistic EU wants to plough ahead with political & fiscal union.
It will take money from richer nations at an increasing rate to build up poorer nations. That means our quality of life is reduced...yes no different to what many claim happens if we crash out.

As I think we have all agreed upon - nobody is going to benefit/win much whichever way this mess untangles. Apart from the EU idealists if Brexit turns out to be a total fudge or not happen at all. Then they will turn the screws!

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

 

[SIR ERNIE]

tbf I feel a bit sorry for May. As you say, nobody's happy, but finding something a majority *would* accept is easier said than done.

Mrs May has screwed up at so many points along the way over the last two years that it is difficult to conclude anything other than she is the worst PM in living memory.

 

[Grappa]

 

[Grappa]

There is no status quo...as many have said - including Grendel most recently (from what I can see) - the idealistic EU wants to plough ahead with political & fiscal union.
It will take money from richer nations at an increasing rate to build up poorer nations. That means our quality of life is reduced...yes no different to what many claim happens if we crash out.

As I think we have all agreed upon - nobody is going to benefit/win much whichever way this mess untangles. Apart from the EU idealists if Brexit turns out to be a total fudge or not happen at all. Then they will turn the screws!

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

If you say so.