The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (264 Viewers)

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Is that true? Have you got a source for that? Asking because I have a friend involved in the local party which one of the defecting MPs sits. They have been desperate to get rid (and they wouldn't have been the candidate at the next election).

Yes it is:

Recall of MPs Act 2015 - Wikipedia

 

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[Brighton Sky Blue]

In your eyes maybe.

The media is constantly having a go at MP's of both sides that prefer to leave the EU.

Then the media is constantly having a go at Labour because of the anti Semitic allegations. Corbyns own MP's are accusing him of not doing enough. Should the media ignore this?

Simple question-when did the press last hound a Tory leader? Did they publish articles trying to smear one of their dead parents? Do they ever portray Tory policies as ‘hard right’? It’s not complicated. More of the media barons have friends in the Conservative Party and thanks to things like Leveson being shelved it will stay that way. There wasn’t much media attention paid to the delayed publishing of an inquiry into our links with the Saudis, or another inquiry into sexual abuse scandals in the Thatcher government. But in the summer they run stories comparing Labour to the Nazis.

In the case of Brexit the establishment would prefer we stay so that is the party line.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Which conveniently swerves the point

The party leader is one individual compared to the thousands who have served as MPs

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

If ypu don't like it - get off your arse & appeal to your fellow citizens. Ask them to vote for you.

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

I don’t like it so I get off my arse and vote against them at every opportunity.

 

[Grendel]

Simple question-when did the press last hound a Tory leader? Did they publish articles trying to smear one of their dead parents? Do they ever portray Tory policies as ‘hard right’? It’s not complicated. More of the media barons have friends in the Conservative Party and thanks to things like Leveson being shelved it will stay that way. There wasn’t much media attention paid to the delayed publishing of an inquiry into our links with the Saudis, or another inquiry into sexual abuse scandals in the Thatcher government. But in the summer they run stories comparing Labour to the Nazis.

In the case of Brexit the establishment would prefer we stay so that is the party line.

There was scandal around a Panama fund which the press hounded Camerons father about

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

There was scandal around a Panama fund which the press hounded Camerons father about

The Panama papers were a global scandal. Quite different to weekly smear articles and allowing shit policies off the hook

 

[Astute]

Simple question-when did the press last hound a Tory leader?

Would you like to name a Tory leader not hounded by the press?

If you read Tory rags you will see Labour leader's getting it. If you read Labour rags you will see Tory leaders getting it.

Corbyn has endless skeletons in the closet. There are a lot of subjects gifted to the press. Or are you going to say he is squeaky clean and know he hasn't done anything wrong ever?

I am Labour 100%. I don't like the fact that Corbyn is leader of the Labour party. You can't deny he has a dodgy looking past. He could also do things better. But the worse thing is that I can't think of anyone who should be leader of the Labour party.

 

[skybluetony176]

So. With rumours abound that a small number of Tory MP’s are considering resigning and joining the rebellion it begs a question. How many have to leave a minority government before it no longer can support a majority even with the DUP and will that trigger a general election?

 

[Ian1779]

Find me anyone outside Corbyns circle who that doesn’t apply to.

Then find me anyone electable within Corbyns circle.

*Then* find me anyone electable in the Tory party.

This is why a goon like Johnson getting in seriously worries me. When everyone’s dull, people vote for entertainment. See Labour leadership contests, see US election.

Depends on how you define Leadership and electability. The age of slogans and sharp suits is over.

Social Media and availability of information is changing the landscape.

Take Heidi Allen as an example, you might suggest she is a more compassionate Tory. She has recently been touring the UK looking at the effects of austerity, and she has been upset by it. Yet when you cross reference her voting record you can clearly see she supported pretty much every policy that has led to this situation playing out across the country. She’s a fucking hypocrite

That kind of scrutiny is out there now as it should be. People talk about Corbyn rebelling against previous leaders - look what he rebelled against (Iraq war, austerity, welfare sanctions to name but a few)

I would rather have a man with a voting record like his leading us.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Marx was all for capitalism, anyway.

 

[shmmeee]

Depends on how you define Leadership and electability. The age of slogans and sharp suits is over.

Social Media and availability of information is changing the landscape.

Take Heidi Allen as an example, you might suggest she is a more compassionate Tory. She has recently been touring the UK looking at the effects of austerity, and she has been upset by it. Yet when you cross reference her voting record you can clearly see she supported pretty much every policy that has led to this situation playing out across the country. She’s a fucking hypocrite

That kind of scrutiny is out there now as it should be. People talk about Corbyn rebelling against previous leaders - look what he rebelled against (Iraq war, austerity, welfare sanctions to name but a few)

I would rather have a man with a voting record like his leading us.

“Moderate Tories” are a total myth.

The age of sharp suits may be over, but I see no evidence the age of slightly dim crumpled old lefties is upon us.

Corbyn is seen as a joke by most (check the “who would make the best PM” polls if you don’t believe me). He won’t win a GE. I wish he would, his platform is the closest I’ve ever seen to my own beliefs. But he won’t. He can’t do retail politics and he’s not personally engaging.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

“Moderate Tories” are a total myth.

The age of sharp suits may be over, but I see no evidence the age of slightly dim crumpled old lefties is upon us.

Corbyn is seen as a joke by most (check the “who would make the best PM” polls if you don’t believe me). He won’t win a GE. I wish he would, his platform is the closest I’ve ever seen to my own beliefs. But he won’t. He can’t do retail politics and he’s not personally engaging.

Yep

 

[Deleted member 5849]

“Moderate Tories” are a total myth.

The age of sharp suits may be over, but I see no evidence the age of slightly dim crumpled old lefties is upon us.

Corbyn is seen as a joke by most (check the “who would make the best PM” polls if you don’t believe me). He won’t win a GE. I wish he would, his platform is the closest I’ve ever seen to my own beliefs. But he won’t. He can’t do retail politics and he’s not personally engaging.

He does come across best in an election campaign though - it's fair to say a lot of the improvement last election was down to his energy, and he's made his own seat impregnable.

What he does do is leave himself a mountain to climb beforehand by the dithering and reluctance to commit - it's all very well having principles, but sometimes you need to nail your colours to a mast early. In that respect, the breakaway group have it right.

What I do find unfortunate is that they weren't prepared to fight for what they believed in within their party. After all, not like Corbyn's been the dominant political direction for most of his time in his own party, is it?

 

[Astute]

He does come across best in an election campaign though - it's fair to say a lot of the improvement last election was down to his energy, and he's made his own seat impregnable.

What he does do is leave himself a mountain to climb beforehand by the dithering and reluctance to commit - it's all very well having principles, but sometimes you need to nail your colours to a mast early. In that respect, the breakaway group have it right.

What I do find unfortunate is that they weren't prepared to fight for what they believed in within their party. After all, not like Corbyn's been the dominant political direction for most of his time in his own party, is it?

I would fully agree with you if they hadn't left for any reason other than Brexit.

The seven Labour defectors - Chuka Umunna, Luciana Berger, Chris Leslie, Angela Smith, Mike Gapes, Gavin Shuker and Ann Coffey - quit the party in protest at what they said was a culture of "bullying and bigotry" in the party and frustration over the leadership's reluctance to back another EU referendum.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

He can’t do retail politics and he’s not personally engaging.

And this person is????

 

[shmmeee]

And this person is????

Currently beating him into a pulp in the most relevant poll for predicting GE outcomes.

And fucking Brexit is the mother of all retail offerings.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Would you like to name a Tory leader not hounded by the press?

If you read Tory rags you will see Labour leader's getting it. If you read Labour rags you will see Tory leaders getting it.

Corbyn has endless skeletons in the closet. There are a lot of subjects gifted to the press. Or are you going to say he is squeaky clean and know he hasn't done anything wrong ever?

I am Labour 100%. I don't like the fact that Corbyn is leader of the Labour party. You can't deny he has a dodgy looking past. He could also do things better. But the worse thing is that I can't think of anyone who should be leader of the Labour party.

The current one, the one before her, the one before him...

We have a right wing media balance in this country, little question of that. On the left we have the Guardian, Independent, and the Mirror. On the right:

Times
Telegraph
Sky
Mail
Sun

While the BBC are pro-establishment. What really was there to find so contemptible in Ed Miliband? They managed to create a personality for a politician who didn't have one.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Currently beating him into a pulp in the most relevant poll for predicting GE outcomes.

Is ahead by a maximum of 5% 'beating him to a pulp'? Once the shitshow that constitutes Brexit is done with and we get back to a square off on domestic policies and electioneering it won't be the same. Would help if most of the general public didn't swallow the first piece of BS that appears on TV or in a newspaper.

 

[shmmeee]

He does come across best in an election campaign though - it's fair to say a lot of the improvement last election was down to his energy, and he's made his own seat impregnable.

What he does do is leave himself a mountain to climb beforehand by the dithering and reluctance to commit - it's all very well having principles, but sometimes you need to nail your colours to a mast early. In that respect, the breakaway group have it right.

What I do find unfortunate is that they weren't prepared to fight for what they believed in within their party. After all, not like Corbyn's been the dominant political direction for most of his time in his own party, is it?

The Chukka crew?

I mean Umunna has the political nous of a wet rag so wouldn’t be surprised if they’ve just fuck it up.

Did see an interesting take on how it might play into an early GE though, if you’re up for believing in 4D chess.

 

[shmmeee]

Is ahead by a maximum of 5% 'beating him to a pulp'? Once the shitshow that constitutes Brexit is done with and we get back to a square off on domestic policies and electioneering it won't be the same. Would help if most of the general public didn't swallow the first piece of BS that appears on TV or in a newspaper.

Wrong poll.

Voting intention polls have a load of holes in them, not least the trouble with modelling our FPTP system (see the 2016 US election for a similar issue with constituency based voting systems and national polls).

Consistently the most reliable indicator is the “Who would make the best PM” poll, and yes he’s being beaten to a pulp in that. Not just by May but by don’t know as well.

I mean the fact that he’s in opposition against the worse government in living memory and still can’t get a lead also shows we won’t win. Opposition peaks outside of elections. To win you have to be well well ahead to account for the incumbent bounce the government always gets.

Again, I’m saying this despite the fact I want Labour to win the next GE and I voted for a Corbyn in 2015.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

The Chukka crew?

I mean Umunna has the political nous of a wet rag so wouldn’t be surprised if they’ve just fuck it up.

Did see an interesting take on how it might play into an early GE though, if you’re up for believing in 4D chess.

Of course it's a fuckup, offshoots always wither and die in the past 100 years in this country, after a brief flurry. Let's face it, if political heavyweights like Jenkins, Williams and Owen couldn't break through (though they got close!), what hope have a bunch of nobodies got?

But in the respect of wanting their leader to do more than dither, and actually commit... they're bob on.

 

[Astute]

The current one, the one before her, the one before him...

We have a right wing media balance in this country, little question of that. On the left we have the Guardian, Independent, and the Mirror. On the right:

Times
Telegraph
Sky
Mail
Sun

While the BBC are pro-establishment. What really was there to find so contemptible in Ed Miliband? They managed to create a personality for a politician who didn't have one.

Is that right?

Can't be bothered to get 8 to a disagreement that turns into an argument. If you are willing to say that no Tory leader gets grief from the media you will be willing to say anything.

 

[Grendel]

The current one, the one before her, the one before him...

We have a right wing media balance in this country, little question of that. On the left we have the Guardian, Independent, and the Mirror. On the right:

Times
Telegraph
Sky
Mail
Sun

While the BBC are pro-establishment. What really was there to find so contemptible in Ed Miliband? They managed to create a personality for a politician who didn't have one.

The Times and The Mail on Sunday are liberal they certainly are not Tory lapdog press.

People also choose the media they want to purchase

 

[Grendel]

5 hours 29 minutes between them announcing the launch of the party and having to issue an apology for one of their MPs making a racist comment on the BBC. That’s got to be a record.

I think Ruth George has more than redressed the balance. Also most labour MPs have been appalled at the Jew hating rhetoric that Berger has been subjected to by a clearly and obvious racist local labour Liverpool membership. The fact Hatton is coming back literally is taking the piss. What next - Adolf Livingstone coming back for a bit of a goose step?

 

[Astute]

I think Ruth George has more than redressed the balance. Also most labour MPs have been appalled at the Jew hating rhetoric that Berger has been subjected to by a clearly and obvious racist local labour Liverpool membership. The fact Hatton is coming back literally is taking the piss. What next - Adolf Livingstone coming back for a bit of a goose step?

There will be excuses made for Hatton returning to the Labour party. And IIRC Corbyn gave his backing to Hatton at the time he got kicked out of the Labour party.

 

[Ian1779]

Of course it's a fuckup, offshoots always wither and die in the past 100 years in this country, after a brief flurry. Let's face it, if political heavyweights like Jenkins, Williams and Owen couldn't break through (though they got close!), what hope have a bunch of nobodies got?

But in the respect of wanting their leader to do more than dither, and actually commit... they're bob on.

You say commit - on what exactly? I would say he’s been extremely committed to his manifesto ideas and wanting to implement them should Labour take power.

I assume we are going back to the big issue which is Brexit. If you were Labour leader how would you play the delicate balance between a large amount of your voters that want to Remain versus the key constituencies that you need to hold to take power that want to Leave?

Whether by luck or design he has manoeuvred May into one of 2 options that Parliament will back. It’s now her deal or his customs union idea - nothing else can get through now. Has he taken too long to get there? probably yes.

As for the decisiveness of the Splitters - Chuka will back any horse that he thinks will give him a boost... sadly he has the capacity and intuition that means he only ever backs 3 legged mules.

I expect his group to end up in the knackers yard also.

 

[mark82]

The Chukka crew?

I mean Umunna has the political nous of a wet rag so wouldn’t be surprised if they’ve just fuck it up.

Did see an interesting take on how it might play into an early GE though, if you’re up for believing in 4D chess.

Do share.

 

[mark82]

The Times and The Mail on Sunday are liberal they certainly are not Tory lapdog press.

People also choose the media they want to purchase

The Times class themselves as centre-right and the Daily Mail (and Mail on Sunday) align to the conservatives. In fact, I'm not sure there is a paper more right wing than the Daily Mail.

 

[Grendel]

The Times class themselves as centre-right and the Daily Mail (and Mail on Sunday) align to the conservatives. In fact, I'm not sure there is a paper more right wing than the Daily Mail.

The mail On sunday is explicitly remain and has numerous liberal contributors

 

[mark82]

So. With rumours abound that a small number of Tory MP’s are considering resigning and joining the rebellion it begs a question. How many have to leave a minority government before it no longer can support a majority even with the DUP and will that trigger a general election?

Think it's about 7, assuming everyone in all other parties except DUP voted against the government.

 

[mark82]

The mail On sunday is explicitly remain and has numerous liberal contributors

They're remain, but then so we're the majority of conservatives. Will take your word on liberal contributors as I don't read it personally. Of they have a balance then that shows they are probably doing a better job than most!

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

So the Honda announcement? Brexit related or totally unrelated? How come with all the investment in battery technology everyone is moving away

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Another labour mp left to join independent group. 40 years she’s been a member wow!

 

[mark82]

So the Honda announcement? Brexit related or totally unrelated? How come with all the investment in battery technology everyone is moving away

I'm sure the uncertainty doesn't help. They've said its not, and as much as I'm pro-remain I'm not sure what incentive they'd have to lie about it.

 

[Ian1779]

Another labour mp left to join independent group. 40 years she’s been a member wow!

Please... the same Joan Ryan that was filmed at conference saying she could secure £1m to take down some Tory ministers and the Labour leadership to protect Israel’s interests....