The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (82 Viewers)

[Deleted member 5849]

So why wouldn't he be able to implement an acceptable deal?

Because the deal is only the start of it. Also, what is 'acceptable' can store up issues further down the line when people realise the reality of it.

 

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[Sick Boy]

You won't. Because you always agree with them even when you don't agree with what they are saying. For instance you agreed with a post saying May did an amazing job. But when I asked you if you thought she had done an amazing job you said she didn't.

So liking a post is now a complete and full on endorsement? Interesting...

Are you going to name these posters and the question(s) they want to ask or not?

 

[Astute]

Because the deal is only the start of it. Also, what is 'acceptable' can store up issues further down the line when people realise the reality of it.

Which actually means it is unacceptable.

I can't see any sort of deal that doesn't at least keep us tied to the EU be seen as acceptable to parliament.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Which actually means it is unacceptable.

No, it doesn't. Many 'acceptable' policies, laws etc. are implemented, that turn out to have negative consequence, some even haver an inevitable negative consequence, but this is subsumed in the desire for a short-term 'win'.

 

[Astute]

So liking a post is now a complete and full on endorsement? Interesting...

Are you going to name these posters and the question(s) they want to ask or not?

Have it your way. Everyone knows what has been said. You make out it hasn't been said. Fair play. Had enough of you starting off bullshit arguments with me then just disappearing.

I suppose if I liked a post where someone said BJ has done an amazing job it wouldn't get you to make a comment.......

 

[Astute]

No, it doesn't. Many 'acceptable' policies, laws etc. are implemented, that turn out to have negative consequence, some even haver an inevitable negative consequence, but this is subsumed in the desire for a short-term 'win'.

But if it was acceptable why wouldn't it be implemented?

 

[Sick Boy]

Have it your way. Everyone knows what has been said. You make out it hasn't been said. Fair play. Had enough of you starting off bullshit arguments with me then just disappearing.

I suppose if I liked a post where someone said BJ has done an amazing job it wouldn't get you to make a comment.......

I’m not making out it hasn’t been said?! I’m asking you to say which posters and questions you’re talking about but you’re unable or unwilling to say.

 

[Astute]

I’m not making out it hasn’t been said?! I’m asking you to say which posters and questions you’re talking about but you’re unable or unwilling to say.

No. I'm unwilling to get into any more stupid arguments you cause.

 

[Sick Boy]

No. I'm unwilling to get into any more stupid arguments you cause.

I'm not trying to cause an argument, I was just asking a simple question that you seem to be unable to answer.

 

[skybluetony176]

No. I'm unwilling to get into any more stupid arguments you cause.

Phew. Thank god you managed to dodge that bullet.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Well for a start a choice between no deal and a Corbyn government isn’t a real option but a choice between remain and a Brexit option is a possible choice. It’s comparing different things and as such complete nonsense.


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It might become an option if Porky goes with it, somewhere between £15 billion bridge and pork pie trade deals

 

[Astute]

I'm not trying to cause an argument, I was just asking a simple question that you seem to be unable to answer.

Well that would be a first.

As I said I am pissed off with you constantly causing arguments. Look at now. You know it has happened but you just want to be pedantic.

I see that there was no reply on if you would say anything if I 'liked' a post saying BJ was doing an excellent job. Of course it only goes one way with you.

This is the last comment from me as you have drawn me inti another of your stupid arguments thus stopping all debate.

 

[Ian1779]

So are you saying that it is best he looks a blithering Idiot who says what he doesn't mean and can't make his mind up.which way he should go? He started off by saying that the result of the referendum should be respected and implemented. These days you have to check the news to see what his latest stance on the subject is.

Are you saying this is a better plan? Because he is losing voters that want to know who to vote for. This is why he is running scared of a GE.

What I am saying is that the plans from 2016, 2017 have gone to shit, primarily because of the shambles the incumbent government have made of things.

You also need to factor in that Labour policy is driven by the membership. At the moment it is a heavily weighted to a remain stance - this generates its own problems that it does not necessarily reflect the grass roots vote, especially on Brexit.

You call it fence sitting, I call it trying to balance between membership and general voting public. I don’t think they should have done anything differently, but I do think they should have been more vocal as to why they took this stance - be explicit in explaining you are trying to balance or unite. The silence or lack of clarity has hurt - not the underlying rationale.

 

[Sick Boy]

Well that would be a first.

As I said I am pissed off with you constantly causing arguments. Look at now. You know it has happened but you just want to be pedantic.

I see that there was no reply on if you would say anything if I 'liked' a post saying BJ was doing an excellent job. Of course it only goes one way with you.

This is the last comment from me as you have drawn me inti another of your stupid arguments thus stopping all debate.

I was genuinely asking a question and you’ve refused to answer it and have tried to deflect onto something else.

why can’t you just answer the original question? Who are these posters and what are the loaded question(s)?

 

[shmmeee]

Is that right?

Tory propaganda? Have a word with yourself. I take no notice of propaganda. But I do take notice of what leaders and MP's are doing. Labour are at their lowest for ages. Why would Corbyn want a GE? With the Lib Dems being remain and the Tories leave there is a good chance Labour would be down to their hardcore support. And many of these would go for the other two. But if Labour then came out as remain the vote would be shared with the Lib Dems. This would let the Tories in.

Which part of this is incorrect?

The same part as before where you think opposition isn’t backing a GE before Oct 31st or an election period over Oct 31st because they’re scared.

Why aren’t the SNP backing it then? They stand to wipe the Tories out in Scotland, but they realise it’s not in the countries best interests right now.

Corbyns inner circle, rightly or wrongly, believe they can make the same big gains in the polls over the campaign as they did last time.

The “chicken” nonsense is just a line from Tory HQ.

 

[shmmeee]

Which actually means it is unacceptable.

I can't see any sort of deal that doesn't at least keep us tied to the EU be seen as acceptable to parliament.

What does “tied to the EU” mean exactly? Do you want no trade deal with the EU?

 

[fernandopartridge]

What does “tied to the EU” mean exactly? Do you want no trade deal with the EU?

Jesus wept, it's really sad that you have to explain this. Any deal is a contract ergo the parties are bound by it. Any trade deals we make with anybody will mean the UK is in some respect tied to the other party.

 

[djr8369]

Jesus wept, it's really sad that you have to explain this. Any deal is a contract ergo the parties are bound by it. Any trade deals we make with anybody will mean the UK is in some respect tied to the other party.

Yeah but he’s got to repeat his nonsense while claiming “I don’t listen to propaganda”.


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[shmmeee]

Jesus wept, it's really sad that you have to explain this. Any deal is a contract ergo the parties are bound by it. Any trade deals we make with anybody will mean the UK is in some respect tied to the other party.

It’s the fuzziness that bothers me. They obvious don’t mean any ties whatsoever, surely? So which ties are the problem?

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

None of them are easy to work out. Boris was one of not many who wanted the May agreement to go through. So is that what he is really after? Seems to me like he is but with changes to Ireland.

Alexander wanted May's deal to go through so much he voted against it and resigned from the Cabinet.

Personally I think this was again him trying to destabilise a leader to force a leadership contest (same reason why he chose Leave - nothing to do with his actual beliefs on the subject)

I think privately he may well have quite liked May's deal as he was pro-Remain for quite some time and that deal seems to be a half-decent compromise between the two positions and why I think he'll bring it back in a very similar form. Unfortunately due to that it doesn't get support from either staunch Remainers or the more extreme Brexiteers, and could be why he's taken the stance towards no deal as a high risk strategy to get it through.

 

[Astute]

What I am saying is that the plans from 2016, 2017 have gone to shit, primarily because of the shambles the incumbent government have made of things.

You also need to factor in that Labour policy is driven by the membership. At the moment it is a heavily weighted to a remain stance - this generates its own problems that it does not necessarily reflect the grass roots vote, especially on Brexit.

You call it fence sitting, I call it trying to balance between membership and general voting public. I don’t think they should have done anything differently, but I do think they should have been more vocal as to why they took this stance - be explicit in explaining you are trying to balance or unite. The silence or lack of clarity has hurt - not the underlying rationale.

Whatever Corbyn has said they would do they have done the opposite. This has hurt badly.

In times of looking for someone to believe many look at what is said to what is done.

And like I said previously the leave vote is now Tory and the remain vote is Lib Dems. Then you have Labour. The Lib Dems and Labour seem to have the same amount in the polls as the Tories and the Farage party. This gives the Tories a fairly big lead. But if Labour would have beat the Lib Dems to the remain vote it could well be looking different.

 

[Astute]

The same part as before where you think opposition isn’t backing a GE before Oct 31st or an election period over Oct 31st because they’re scared.

Why aren’t the SNP backing it then? They stand to wipe the Tories out in Scotland, but they realise it’s not in the countries best interests right now.

Corbyns inner circle, rightly or wrongly, believe they can make the same big gains in the polls over the campaign as they did last time.

The “chicken” nonsense is just a line from Tory HQ.

So the SNP winning in Scotland would put them in power?

No. The Tories would most probably win. And if they get the majority they would be much stronger than now.

 

[Astute]

What does “tied to the EU” mean exactly? Do you want no trade deal with the EU?

As you know a trade deal isn't tied to the EU.

Tied to the EU is the May way. But you know this.

And where have I said I do or don't want to be tied to the EU if we leave? It all depends on the detail. Anyone making out I have given a personal opinion on the matter is talking out their anus. Nothing unusual here though.

 

[Ian1779]

Whatever Corbyn has said they would do they have done the opposite. This has hurt badly.

In times of looking for someone to believe many look at what is said to what is done.

And like I said previously the leave vote is now Tory and the remain vote is Lib Dems. Then you have Labour. The Lib Dems and Labour seem to have the same amount in the polls as the Tories and the Farage party. This gives the Tories a fairly big lead. But if Labour would have beat the Lib Dems to the remain vote it could well be looking different.

The extra support from Remain does not convert to winning Lab/Con marginals or holding those traditional Lab seats up north that voted leave, for the same reason that LD will make most gains from the Tories - not Labour.

You can discuss the semantics all day long - this doesn’t change the make up of the constituencies.

 

[Astute]

Jesus wept, it's really sad that you have to explain this. Any deal is a contract ergo the parties are bound by it. Any trade deals we make with anybody will mean the UK is in some respect tied to the other party.

Is it?

Would you like to explain how then? Because that would mean that nearly every country in the world is tied in some way.

A trade agreement is just that. No shared laws. No laws made by someone other than the country that has to stick to them. No freedom of movement. No payments made like we presently do to the EU. No sitting in on a separate parliament to our own.

This is just a few ways of being tied together. But you know this.

 

[Astute]

It’s the fuzziness that bothers me. They obvious don’t mean any ties whatsoever, surely? So which ties are the problem?

Which ties are you going on about?

I am starting to think we won't even leave. Good for my family and myself but not for trust in parliament at all.

 

[Astute]

Alexander wanted May's deal to go through so much he voted against it and resigned from the Cabinet.

Personally I think this was again him trying to destabilise a leader to force a leadership contest (same reason why he chose Leave - nothing to do with his actual beliefs on the subject)

I think privately he may well have quite liked May's deal as he was pro-Remain for quite some time and that deal seems to be a half-decent compromise between the two positions and why I think he'll bring it back in a very similar form. Unfortunately due to that it doesn't get support from either staunch Remainers or the more extreme Brexiteers, and could be why he's taken the stance towards no deal as a high risk strategy to get it through.

Boris wanted it for sure. But the problem was Ireland. Seems to me he would try the same but is trying to get rid or at least reduce the Ireland problem.

I still think the best way would be to know the ramifications of not agreeing a trade agreement and starting negotiations. But this would make it a weaker hand for the EU. Can't see them wanting to do it.

 

[Astute]

The extra support from Remain does not convert to winning Lab/Con marginals or holding those traditional Lab seats up north that voted leave, for the same reason that LD will make most gains from the Tories - not Labour.

You can discuss the semantics all day long - this doesn’t change the make up of the constituencies.

So why has Labour support gone down and what could have been done to avoid it?

 

[skybluetony176]

As you know a trade deal isn't tied to the EU.

So there won’t be any alignments of standards in a a trade deal then? Alignments in Tariffs?

 

[chiefdave]

We're living in a shit version of the Thick of It.
Chancellor Sajid Javid admits he cannot say how much no-deal Brexit will cost

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Is it?

Would you like to explain how then? Because that would mean that nearly every country in the world is tied in some way.

A trade agreement is just that. No shared laws. No laws made by someone other than the country that has to stick to them. No freedom of movement. No payments made like we presently do to the EU. No sitting in on a separate parliament to our own.

This is just a few ways of being tied together. But you know this.

It's a semantic discussion of what 'tied in' means. Other countries with EU trade deals have to have certain quality standards that comply with EU regulations. Other countries like Switzerland and Norway make payments to access the EU market.

Although they are not technically bound by them in the same way as a full EU member if they wish to trade they do have to comply with them and as such could be argued to be 'tied in' to them.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

We're living in a shit version of the Thick of It.
Chancellor Sajid Javid admits he cannot say how much no-deal Brexit will cost

Will that £30bn a year be taken from the NHS budget?

 

[shmmeee]

Can’t wait for Sajid Javid to become a laughing stock for not knowing his numbers.

Oh wait, that only happens if you’re a Labour MP.

 

[shmmeee]

So why has Labour support gone down and what could have been done to avoid it?

They have a terrible leader.

They could get a new leader (but not right now as there isn’t time).

 

[fernandopartridge]

Is it?

Would you like to explain how then? Because that would mean that nearly every country in the world is tied in some way.

A trade agreement is just that. No shared laws. No laws made by someone other than the country that has to stick to them. No freedom of movement. No payments made like we presently do to the EU. No sitting in on a separate parliament to our own.

This is just a few ways of being tied together. But you know this.

It will be in the form of a treaty, it isn't just a loose set of terms but a formal agreement with bilateral obligations. The agreement in itself is a shared law (treaty).