The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (109 Viewers)

[SkyblueBazza]

A thread I don't post in usually.

The Labour position of either their deal or remain in the EU after another referendum is something I really just can't get my head around.

if we are to have a second referendum, which to me seems to just ignores the democratic will of the first referendum, shouldn't the choices be between a no deal break from the EU, and the revised deal labour potentially has to offer.

Labour & LDs & indeed the SNP have seemingly gone awfully quiet the last week or so haven't they?

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[Astute]

The government drew its red lines and it doesn’t involve EFTA or Schengen membership by any stretch of the imagination and that isn’t even a grey area. You really couldn’t have picked a worse country to draw a comparison to.

The government tried to keep to what the EU said was allowed and what they thought they could push through parliament. Or they came put with something they knew they couldn't push through. Take your pick.

 

[skybluetony176]

I am saying exactly what I was saying from the start.

We have a much better hand than people like yourself want anyone to believe. The problem is that people like yourself keep making our hand weaker.

Just like we threatened a no deal to bring them finally to the table. So what happens is a new law is brought out to try and outlaw a no deal.

Can you imagine if a new law was brought out to ensure there was a no deal?

Called it. I knew you’d change your mind.

Not sure how I’m personally responsible for weakening our hand.

No we don’t have a better hand than I want to believe and the last 3 years only confirms that if you want to pay attention to what’s happened and it started on day one with Davis going into the first round of negotiations saying no no the divorce bill won’t be as large as suggested and then coming out for lunch saying yes yes it’s as large as suggested.

 

[Ian1779]

BBC News -

No-deal Brexit 'to push UK debt to 50-year high'


But we all already knew that......right?

It’s a sacrifice that the rich are prepared to make on our behalf, despite the zero impact it will have on them.

Aren’t we so lucky...

 

[skybluetony176]

I believe huge changes are needed to our Constitution.

I certainly agree with that. For starters our constitution needs cementing in law as a gentleman’s agreement only works when the PM behaves like a gentleman.

 

[Astute]

Called it. I knew you’d change your mind.

Not sure how I’m personally responsible for weakening our hand.

No we don’t have a better hand than I want to believe and the last 3 years only confirms that if you want to pay attention to what’s happened and it started on day one with Davis going into the first round of negotiations saying no no the divorce bill won’t be as large as suggested and then coming out for lunch saying yes yes it’s as large as suggested.

Try and explain how I have changed my mind.

 

[skybluetony176]

The government tried to keep to what the EU said was allowed and what they thought they could push through parliament. Or they came put with something they knew they couldn't push through. Take your pick.

Not sure what that has to do with you trying to compare Brexit negotiations to why can’t we have what Switzerland has.

 

[Ian1779]

Labour & LDs & indeed the SNP have seemingly gone awfully quiet the last week or so haven't they?

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The LD’s haven’t... been busy shouting about how they’ve taken in all the racists and homophobes from the Tory party.

 

[skybluetony176]

It’s a sacrifice that the rich are prepared to make on our behalf, despite the zero impact it will have on them.

Aren’t we so lucky...

That’s not fair. It will have an effect on them. They’ll get richer while the plebs get poorer.

 

[Ian1779]

That’s not fair. It will have an effect on them. They’ll get richer while the plebs get poorer.

Again - I think you are underestimating their great sacrifice. I’m thinking statues and everything.

 

[skybluetony176]

The government tried to keep to what the EU said was allowed and what they thought they could push through parliament. Or they came put with something they knew they couldn't push through. Take your pick.

But we held all the cards remember. Or maybe we didn’t. Where are you on that at this moment in time? It’s hard to keep up with your flip flopping.

 

[Astute]

M

Not sure what that has to do with you trying to compare Brexit negotiations to why can’t we have what Switzerland has.

Exactly.

Any chance of trying to have a debate and not making up rubbish to try and stop debate?

 

[Astute]

But we held all the cards remember. Or maybe we didn’t. Where are you on that at this moment in time? It’s hard to keep up with your flip flopping.

Yet again I try and have a debate with you and SB. Yet again it proves impossible. Will leave the two of you to it.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

What’s wrong with chicken and mushroom ?! : )

Just not a fan of it in a pie. I like chicken. I like pastry. I can abide mushrooms if necessary. Put them all together in a pie though and it just doesn't work for me.

 

[Alan Dugdales Moustache]

Given that we're a parliamentary democracy and that there has been a general election since then where both main parties campaigned on the basis of a deal I'd say that trumps whatever the perceived outcome of the referendum was

You would say that though wouldn't you ?

 

[Sick Boy]

The Mail? You not quoting them today? Because you quote them much more than I ever have.

Just shows how much of a joke you are. Go play with yourself. Don't know why I ever bother replying to your bullshit.

Yeah and that’s why you’ve mentioned on here that you’re a Mail reader. And I don’t think I’ve ever once quoted it.

Run along and find another Guido Fawkes article to back up your version of ‘the truth’.

 

[CCFCSteve]

Given that we're a parliamentary democracy and that there has been a general election since then where both main parties campaigned on the basis of a deal I'd say that trumps whatever the perceived outcome of the referendum was

It’s a fair argument however both main parties also campaigned on leaving single market and customs union (as it was). A deal was then proposed by May which labour rejected even though it wasn’t contradictory to what they campaigned.

I agree that most people would want a deal though.

ps Lib Dems campaigned for remain and ended up with 7.5%, even if you lump in SNP (another 3%) there was very little support for remain parties at last election, so based on the GE argument remain should be off the table.

 

[fernandopartridge]

You would say that though wouldn't you ?

I voted leave if that's what you mean

 

[skybluetony176]

It’s a fair argument however both main parties also campaigned on leaving single market and customs union (as it was). A deal was then proposed by May which labour rejected even though it wasn’t contradictory to what they campaigned.

I agree that most people would want a deal though.

ps Lib Dems campaigned for remain and ended up with 7.5%, even if you lump in SNP (another 3%) there was very little support for remain parties at last election, so based on the GE argument remain should be off the table.

Didn’t Labour campaign to remain in the customs union?

 

[CCFCSteve]

Didn’t Labour campaign to remain in the customs union?

Thought they said that they would leave the customs union and single market but sought to retain as much of the benefits as possible (ie be in a new customs union)

might be wrong but think that’s accurate

Ps just found this. See single market membership section. Like their current policy, not particularly clear but appears to be aligned with what I thought
FactCheck: what is Labour’s policy on Brexit?

 

[skybluetony176]

Thought they said that they would leave the customs union and single market but sought to retain as much of the benefits as possible (ie be in a new customs union)

might be wrong but think that’s accurate

You may be right. I think they possibly worded it as a customs union rather than the customs union.

 

[CCFCSteve]

You may be right. I think they possibly worded it as a customs union rather than the customs union.

Spot on. That’s my recollection as well. That’s why i always put (as it was) next to customs union

 

[Alan Dugdales Moustache]

I voted leave if that's what you mean

All the more shameful for you to state such nonsense then.

 

[fernandopartridge]

All the more shameful for you to state such nonsense then.

I'm so ashamed

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Just not a fan of it in a pie. I like chicken. I like pastry. I can abide mushrooms if necessary. Put them all together in a pie though and it just doesn't work for me.

Big fan of chicken and mushroom.

Only fine British chicken snd mushroom, mind. None of this foreign muck

 

[Deleted member 5849]

If leave is the will of the people, then the people will have no problem testing that.

 

[CCFCSteve]

Big fan of chicken and mushroom.

Only fine British chicken snd mushroom, mind. None of this foreign muck

certainly not any of that chlorinated stuff from the US (that everyone probably eats without quibble if I’m America)

 

[CCFCSteve]

Anyone know the Parliament attendance list for Goves No Deal update yesterday prior to the prorogation ?

Whilst a major tactical fuck up by Johnson/Cummings (and one I said I didn’t agree with) for all the screaming, shouting and attempted points scoring has much happened since the Supreme Court decision ?

As I’ve said before, a majority of Parliament are an absolute self servicing, power hungry shower !!!!

 

[djr8369]

Anyone know the Parliament attendance list for Goves No Deal update yesterday prior to the prorogation ?

Whilst a major tactical fuck up by Johnson/Cummings (and one I said I didn’t agree with) for all the screaming, shouting and attempted points scoring has much happened since the Supreme Court decision ?

As I’ve said before, a majority of Parliament are an absolute self servicing, power hungry shower !!!!

Yeah a few bills have been worked on. The idea nothing has happened is just more disinformation.


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[CCFCSteve]

Yeah a few bills have been worked on. The idea nothing has happened is just more disinformation.


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limited though and as I say, the perceived lack of interest in the No Deal planning indicated by the number of attendees (the main reason for getting the prorogation cancelled being Brexit) is disappointing

MPs could’ve/would’ve worked without sitting. The only time I’ve seen Parliament full was the point scoring slanging match the day it returned

 

[Astute]

Yeah and that’s why you’ve mentioned on here that you’re a Mail reader. And I don’t think I’ve ever once quoted it.

Run along and find another Guido Fawkes article to back up your version of ‘the truth’.

I will try for the very last time with you. Otherwise will fully ignore you whatever rubbish you come out with.

Point out where I said I am a Mail reader.

I read all kinds of crap from all sources. The only site I read through choice is BBC as they are supposed to be unbiased by law. But their contributors still have their own slant because of their own bias. But I read as many as I can to try and work out the unbiased truth.

And yes you have quoted the Mail several times. Each time I asked you why you quoted the Mail as you had a go at anyone for quoting the Mail. But each time you said it was something worth sharing.

 

[djr8369]

limited though and as I say, the perceived lack of interest in the No Deal planning indicated by the number of attendees (the main reason for getting the prorogation cancelled being Brexit) is disappointing

MPs could’ve/would’ve worked without sitting. The only time I’ve seen Parliament full was the point scoring slanging match the day it returned

It doesn’t necessarily take a lot of MPs to be sitting to force the government to show its hand though so I’m not sure whether this is an erroneous point. Admittedly it doesn’t look great.

That aside it isn’t just about the time available for parliament to ask specific questions. It’s about the executive removing the elected house the ability to do so for too long and at a critical time and the precedent that sets.


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[SkyblueBazza]

Didn’t Labour campaign to remain in the customs union?

Who knows? They lost credibility with me when they seemed to say in their manifesto that the Govt was wrong to invoke article 50 before guaranteeing EU citizens rights in the UK, without having any guarantees of reciprocation...& having had a 3 line whip as directed by JC not to block it!

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[skybluetony176]

M

Exactly.

Any chance of trying to have a debate and not making up rubbish to try and stop debate?

Is Switzerland part of Schengen? Yes.

Is Switzerland part of EFTA? Yes.

Do we want either of those? No.

What is there to debate exactly? You asked why we can’t have what Switzerland has. The answers are very very simple as stated above.

 

[SkyblueBazza]

If leave is the will of the people, then the people will have no problem testing that.

It was

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