Coronavirus Thread (Off Topic, Politics) (331 Viewers)

[Ring Of Steel]

Do you own a business? It has two shareholders and pays no dividends. Again I try and explain a point from a position of some knowledge and someone makes a counter claim with what knowledge exactly?

he used the wrong terminology same as you did, and there are rules but ‘dividends’ still happen whether they’re directors drawings or something similar. Obviously I don’t know the specifics of the company you’re talking about but I wouldn’t write off what he says, he’s right albeit not technically via “dividends”.

 

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[skybluetony176]

he does indeed

Thought so.

 

[Grendel]

he used the wrong terminology same as you did, and there are rules but ‘dividends’ still happens whether they’re directors drawings or something similar. Obviously I don’t know the specifics of the company you’re talking about but I wouldn’t write off what he says, he’s right albeit not technically via “dividends”.

Dividends tend to be directors salaries in this instance as the tax rate is apparently lower at certain tax bands but clearly they are not normal dividends

 

[Ring Of Steel]

I do find it strange as you’ve said you are an accountant why you had such a problematic time regarding the level of debt in the football club by the owners of the club was the £20 million I quoted when the accountant that broke it down into bite size chunks on here always said it was exactly that and you then started quoting Kevin Maguire. Was that a wind up?

With all due respect- and I mean that- I barely even remember all that stuff. One for another day for sure though as I do remember a load of info coming up that I wasn’t aware of

 

[skybluetony176]

Dividends tend to be directors salaries in this instance as the tax rate is apparently lower at certain tax bands but clearly they are not normal dividends

Isn’t it NI contribution rather than tax?

 

[Ring Of Steel]

Dividends tend to be directors salaries in this instance as the tax rate is apparently lower at certain tax bands but clearly they are not normal dividends

If they’re just taking a salary alone and no dividends/ drawings etc then all the cash is genuinely for propping up the business, and you’ve got to assume they’ve crunched the numbers to know how long they can last. The problem is trying to factor in whether the people that owe you money will go under, if they do then your projections are blown away. Massive uncertainty everywhere, a giant house of cards. Then you’ve got the one man bands with their own companies who might employ 10 guys, the self employed support means they’re absolutely screwed- and their closure means their customers have no supplier, manufacturing schedules blown apart, there’s a risk of people getting done for wrongful trading etc etc, I’m waffling and I have no answers, but this is going to be the biggest mess in my lifetime for sure.

 

[Grendel]

If they’re just taking a salary alone and no dividends/ drawings etc then all the cash is genuinely for propping up the business, and you’ve got to assume they’ve crunched the numbers to know how long they can last. The problem is trying to factor in whether the people that owe you money will go under, if they do then your projections are blown away. Massive uncertainty everywhere, a giant house of cards. Then you’ve got the one man bands with their own companies who might employ 10 guys, the self employed support means they’re absolutely screwed- and their closure means their customers have no supplier, manufacturing schedules blown apart, there’s a risk of people getting done for wrongful trading etc etc, I’m waffling and I have no answers, but this is going to be the biggest mess in my lifetime for sure.

Exactly thanks for a sensible post

 

[Ring Of Steel]

Exactly thanks for a sensible post

why do I get the sense I’ve unwittingly taken sides in an argument

The forecasts are out there right now, even on the BBC- it’s going to be tough going. And I don’t know who said it but I do agree- when you have people taking £60m dividends the day before asking for a multi-billion bailout (EasyJet) then something is badly wrong, but I don’t know unfortunately of any government outside of China who would have the balls and the ability to get involved and clamp down on that. Like I said- I’m no economist but that can’t be right just like it can’t be right that when this recession is in full swing, the same old names will pay their 2% effective tax rate while there are millions on the dole- what do you do though, how do you fix it? If only there was the appetite for a proper shake-up geared towards- for want of a better word- ‘fairness’, and that’s not declaring any political affiliation either.

 

[Ring Of Steel]

why do I get the sense I’ve unwittingly taken sides in an argument

The forecasts are out there right now, even on the BBC- it’s going to be tough going. And I don’t know who said it but I do agree- when you have people taking £60m dividends the day before asking for a multi-billion bailout (EasyJet) then something is badly wrong, but I don’t know unfortunately of any government outside of China who would have the balls and the ability to get involved and clamp down on that. Like I said- I’m no economist but that can’t be right just like it can’t be right that when this recession is in full swing, the same old names will pay their 2% effective tax rate while there are millions on the dole- what do you do though, how do you fix it? If only there was the appetite for a proper shake-up geared towards- for want of a better word- ‘fairness’, and that’s not declaring any political affiliation either.

for the politically minded- looks like there is a new government in Ireland- Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil coalition. I wish I could explain what that means exactly but it’s causing quite the stir over here.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Do you own a business? It has two shareholders and pays no dividends. Again I try and explain a point from a position of some knowledge and someone makes a counter claim with what knowledge exactly?

I did this for a living for over a decade. We turned a huge amount of sole traders/partnerships into ltd's due to the tax advantages at the time (since closed).

As the owners(shareholders) were usually also the directors (as I assume is the case here) they'd often pay themselves a 'bonus' at the end of the year in the form of a dividend (as they're usually higher rate tax payers so no NI as would be if they put a bonus in their wages). This would be placed into their director's loan account in the accounts which they could then draw from if they wished.

You stated an I quote:

The business I am referring to has huge cash reserves compared to most of its size - it pays no dividends as it’s a private limited Company - again reality over theory

thus suggesting that ltd's aren't able to pay dividends due to their set-up, which is not true. Maybe in this case they didn't take dividends, but that would be through choice, not because they can't.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

I mean viruses don’t travel through walls so not sure the relevance to social distancing. You can be 1m from someone if there’s a brick wall between you.

Agree about the metric used though, would be better comparing sub national regions. He gives some explanation here:



In a nutshell: pure pop density is misleading, this isn’t perfect but best measure we have.

I agree about the difference about what's between you BUT high density areas tend to involve high-rises. These have shared spaces to enter/exit the building used by many people. So even if your not in the hallway/staircase at the same time if someone has breathed/coughed/sneezed and the pathogen is still airbourne or has landed on a surface others inadvertently touch it will spread even though you've social distanced.

I live alone so I don't need to worry about others bringing the pathogen in with them and catching it off them or vice versa. Family of three next door if one goes out they could run the risk of infecting the others when they get home. Population density of the household.

 

[Sick Boy]

for the politically minded- looks like there is a new government in Ireland- Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil coalition. I wish I could explain what that means exactly but it’s causing quite the stir over here.

That’s going to play into SF’s hands majorly in the future, especially with all that’s going on.

 

[Sick Boy]

Trust me to open up a business on the side during a global pandemic ffs!!

 

[Grendel]

I did this for a living for over a decade. We turned a huge amount of sole traders/partnerships into ltd's due to the tax advantages at the time (since closed).

As the owners(shareholders) were usually also the directors (as I assume is the case here) they'd often pay themselves a 'bonus' at the end of the year in the form of a dividend (as they're usually higher rate tax payers so no NI as would be if they put a bonus in their wages). This would be placed into their director's loan account in the accounts which they could then draw from if they wished.

You stated an I quote:


thus suggesting that ltd's aren't able to pay dividends due to their set-up, which is not true. Maybe in this case they didn't take dividends, but that would be through choice, not because they can't.

Dividends for business owners are a form of salary you have a very distorted view that most SME owners are just trying to extract income and have no regard for the long term - to suggest arrogantly businesses can somehow survive with no income for 6 months while still paying salaries and bills and it’s their lack of prudence that’s to blame is mind blowing. I’d love to see you explain that to such people

 

[Ring Of Steel]

That’s going to play into SF’s hands majorly in the future, especially with all that’s going on.

yes I can confirm that they’re all over the place on tv giving their views. Apparently the leader had COVID19 quite badly for a while.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Dividends for business owners are a form of salary you have a very distorted view that most SME owners are just trying to extract income and have no regard for the long term - to suggest arrogantly businesses can somehow survive with no income for 6 months while still paying salaries and bills and it’s their lack of prudence that’s to blame is mind blowing. I’d love to see you explain that to such people

I wasn't claiming any such thing. As I said if this business you're talking about had more liquidity and wasn't taking dividends and so was being run prudently in comparison to others and looking to grow the business yet are still massively at risk it highlights how bad the problem is.

As I said at the time we were turning a lot of sole traders etc in ltd's and the dividends would replace what they would have before taken out as drawings. Nowhere does that suggest they were looking to take every penny out - they weren't. They often paid themselves very low wages and this was a 'top up' of that depending on if the business had done well. They kept a lot in the business as either a buffer or to grow as well. (Although I'd have thought you'd consider them silly for doing so rather than taking it to splash out on stuff to 'better themselves'.

Btw dividends and salaries are completely different. The tax treatment and rates of both are different.

 

[Ring Of Steel]

Dividends for business owners are a form of salary you have a very distorted view that most SME owners are just trying to extract income and have no regard for the long term - to suggest arrogantly businesses can somehow survive with no income for 6 months while still paying salaries and bills and it’s their lack of prudence that’s to blame is mind blowing. I’d love to see you explain that to such people

I would respectfully suggest that you’re both saying something similar, I don’t think he’s insinuating that the owners are trying to screw over their own companies, just that there are more efficient ways & mechanisms of using their companys’ assets to reap personal rewards than just by taking a salary. Very often you’ll find owners taking a very low monthly salary for this very reason, they use other ways to compensate themselves depending on how the company performs. Not saying you’re wrong either btw.

 

[Grendel]

I wasn't claiming any such thing. As I said if this business you're talking about had more liquidity and wasn't taking dividends and so was being run prudently in comparison to others and looking to grow the business yet are still massively at risk it highlights how bad the problem is.

As I said at the time we were turning a lot of sole traders etc in ltd's and the dividends would replace what they would have before taken out as drawings. Nowhere does that suggest they were looking to take every penny out - they weren't. They often paid themselves very low wages and this was a 'top up' of that depending on if the business had done well. They kept a lot in the business as either a buffer or to grow as well. (Although I'd have thought you'd consider them silly for doing so rather than taking it to splash out on stuff to 'better themselves'.

Btw dividends and salaries are completely different. The tax treatment and rates of both are different.

I know the tax treatments are different? You aren’t one of these SME advisor idiots that couldn’t run a chip shop in real life are you?

 

[Ring Of Steel]

I know the tax treatments are different? You aren’t one of these SME advisor idiots that couldn’t run a chip shop in real life are you?

I dunno, I knew a guy that had a chip van who was absolutely raking it in- ‘Tommy Tucks’ he was called... only problem was that it turned out he was selling cocaine and weed as well as chip butties

 

[SkyBlueCharlie9]

Not to compare countries as it’s frequently acknowledged that each country has a very different way of recording deaths

What about compared to Ireland?

 

[SkyBlueDom26]

Yes mate it was much better so fingers crossed things are starting to improve a bit more quickly now but have to be prepared for more increases again in the coming days though I think

How come there will be increases mate?

 

[Ring Of Steel]

What about compared to Ireland?

I think over here it’s every death including care homes (which are a horror story) but I will check. Worst day so far over here today- 41 dead. You get very good quality info here with the full breakdown (and no that’s not a pop at U.K.), 187 of the 406 deaths have been in care homes so pretty much 50% of the total.

41 more people have died from Covid-19, 832 new cases

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

I know the tax treatments are different? You aren’t one of these SME advisor idiots that couldn’t run a chip shop in real life are you?

You seemed obsessed with people running chip shops lately - the lockdown affecting your diet?

And no I'm not one of those advisor idiots - I did accounts for various types of business at a couple of practices for a fair few years.

I assume you didn't mean to end that first sentence in a question mark. If you knew that then why did you say dividends were paid as directors salaries? For tax reasons that's not possible. Plus you can have shareholders of limited companies who aren't directors (hence the limited - separation of ownership and control) Although it tends to be rare it does happen. How would they receive the dividend from the company if they don't get a director's salary?

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

I dunno, I knew a guy that had a chip van who was absolutely raking it in- ‘Tommy Tucks’ he was called... only problem was that it turned out he was selling cocaine and weed as well as chip butties

Genius. Sell the weed out the back, they get the munchies and buy chips as well.

Mind you there's quite a few businesses around that I think are just front for other activities and are just essentially devices for laundering money.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

I dunno, I knew a guy that had a chip van who was absolutely raking it in- ‘Tommy Tucks’ he was called... only problem was that it turned out he was selling cocaine and weed as well as chip butties

I also wonder if it wasn't 'salt' he put on the chips to make them even moreish.

 

[Ring Of Steel]

Donald Trump has ordered the USA to stop contributing to the WHO because of their failures to deal with China...

 

[David O'Day]

Donald Trump has ordered the USA to stop contributing to the WHO because of their failures to deal with China...

The US Congress is in charge of budgets and how they are spent. Likely to be more waffle from an unhinged weirdo.

 

[wingy]

The US Congress is in charge of budgets and how they are spent. Likely to be more waffle from an unhinged weirdo.

Playing to the domestic audience.

 

[wingy]

Meanwhile we gave them £200M the other day .

 

[Grendel]

Donald Trump has ordered the USA to stop contributing to the WHO because of their failures to deal with China...

The DOW continues to rally and futures are up again. Against all logic it seems. This is purely Trumps focus and is the main interest he has in this election year

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

The DOW continues to rally and futures are up again. Against all logic it seems. This is purely Trumps focus and is the main interest he has in this election year

The health of the stock market and the economic health of most Americans are not the same, he should be glad he is up against a dementia patient rather than the dude calling for a 2k UBI

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

yes I can confirm that they’re all over the place on tv giving their views. Apparently the leader had COVID19 quite badly for a while.

While I find what she represents pretty abhorrent I have to admit she's very effective

 

[Johhny Blue]

I dunno, I knew a guy that had a chip van who was absolutely raking it in- ‘Tommy Tucks’ he was called... only problem was that it turned out he was selling cocaine and weed as well as chip butties

Fish & Sniffs?

 

[dutchman]

Genius. Sell the weed out the back, they get the munchies and buy chips as well.

Mind you there's quite a few businesses around that I think are just front for other activities and are just essentially devices for laundering money.

In Holland they're all 'hairdressers' I'm told. Ask where you can buy drugs and you'll be directed to the nearest hair salon. The local poilce are apparently 'oblivious' to this activity which has earned them a lot of derision.

 

[Astute]

What I’ve seen is there’s generally two “levels” of racism, one everyone agrees is racism (calling black people w*gs or Asians p**i for example), and one more subtle that people argue over and seems to expand and contract based on who committed it. Stuff like calling a black woman ugly for (a bad) example, I’ve seen people say “that plays into the stereotypes of black women being ugly and therefore is racist” and others say “I’d call them ugly whatever their skin colour so it’s not racism”.

Similarly the slippery slope argument around say “you can’t say Islam has an issue with terrorism because then you’re saying all followers of Islam are terrorists”.

This second form is more nebulous to define and can be very much “I know it when I see it” which makes the rules harder to know ahead of time and feel unfair.

It’s interesting as a white guy to sit and pontificate about, it’s nice to have that luxury, but very hard for those that are definitely feeing prejudice with no clear way to explain why.

My eldest daughter is half Asian. She is in the perfect position to see what racism is all about. She has black hair just like me. But her skin tone is she looks like she has a slight tan.

Racist remarks? Those who don't know her don't have a clue. They carry on as usual. It can be a delight to watch her pull racism to bits. She looks delicate. 5'9" slim and good looking. But she is like myself. Very mellow but she won't take shit from anyone.

You are right on one thing. What a lot of white people see as racism is on a different level on where racism actually is.