Coronavirus Thread (Off Topic, Politics) (196 Viewers)

[shmmeee]

Double edged sword as it seems the local alternatives were people on the council and we all know what they're like!

Funnily enough I believe there was an effort to get an AWS in to stop O’Boyle being the candidate as he was looking like the front runner. So positive discrimination would’ve been used to stop a sub standard candidate! Isn’t life wonderful?

 

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[shmmeee]

Sultana not evidence? Do you live in Coventry? I don't but know all about her. No lazy remark there.

Except as I’ve stated Sultana wasn’t the beneficiary of positive discrimination, just good old fashioned jobs for the boys politics.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

It'd be pretty shoddy if the Daily Mail ended up more efficient in jetting in PPE than our government....

 

[Ring Of Steel]

PPE gowns bought for NHS from Turkey unusable

Isolationist Britain in new blunder- who would have seen that coming?

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Good article. Be interesting to see Germanys stats when they are eventually released. There number of deaths does seem incredibly low no matter how well they've managed the situation.
Our official figures at 71% of excess deaths suggests we've done reasonably well at recording the mortality rate compared to a lot of countries.

At the moment we certainly seem to be making a right pig's ear of it but I've no idea if the death figures are counted the same. Is it that ours are actually a better overall representation of others? In the end I think the only way around it will be excess deaths, but that is a better indication of overall dealing with it than coping with he disease itself, taking into account retaining the ability to treat other conditions, preventing mental health problems with lockdown and economic pressures etc.

 

[Skybluefaz]

most of the alternatives to be fair. Sultana was shipped in because she was a Corbynite though, not because she was an Asian woman. It wasn’t an AWS AFAIK.

Fair enough.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Except as I’ve stated Sultana wasn’t the beneficiary of positive discrimination, just good old fashioned jobs for the boys politics.

Yeah that's true. Lots of rumours Blair jnr was being lined up for Robinson's seat back in the day. Coventry's always been a target to parachute in candidates, as it's pretty safe as they go. I don't like that kind of thing as it leads to people who maybe don't have an affinity for the local area, but it's been on the cards be they white, male, african, asian, and all the colours of LGBTQ+

Despite that, and despite it making the election results closer than they maybe should have been, as far as I can tell, both the new MPs are not doing too bad a job at all at being a local MP. Time will tell if they keep that up, of course.

 

[skybluetony176]

Open the borders up.

I get that it was supposed to be a humanitarian action, but it was not thought through at all. The consequences of such reckless action, has in my opinion, changed the long term future of the whole continent.

She clearly went about it the wrong way but when you say that she’s changed the long term future for the whole continent you seem to be defaulting to assuming that it’s for the worst.

 

[Ring Of Steel]

I'll never forgive her for what she did.

I honestly think that was enough to make the leave vote win.

what did she do?

 

[Deleted member 5849]

She clearly went about it the wrong way but when you say that she’s changed the long term future for the whole continent you seem to be defaulting to assuming that it’s for the worst.

In his defence, I was assuming he meant in terms of giving ammunition to people with dubious views such as Farage.

 

[Skybluefaz]

Sultana not evidence? Do you live in Coventry? I don't but know all about her. No lazy remark there.

I don't think there are many things you don't know all about judging from your posts.

 

[Ring Of Steel]

Open the borders up.

I get that it was supposed to be a humanitarian action, but it was not thought through at all. The consequences of such reckless action, has in my opinion, changed the long term future of the whole continent.

how?

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

While there is no doubt the tories are atrocious, they keep winning elections.

Not all of the electorate are stupid, and they keep rejecting labour as somehow even worse that the tories.

If there were some genuine decent opposition I'm sure they would get voted for.

People these days vote on personality and catchy slogans. You could have the best policies in the world but if they're delivered in a dull way they won't get voted for. Substance is out the window.

Other thing is just repeating what people say back at them and just appealing to that. Just because something is popular doesn't mean it's the right thing to do. But if you try and do what is right rather than popular you're 'out of touch'.

 

[Astute]

Except as I’ve stated Sultana wasn’t the beneficiary of positive discrimination, just good old fashioned jobs for the boys politics.

The problem is politics were much better when it was those who served the best got elected. Once the question was asked on why were most MP's white males it suddenly changed. That meant that if the best candidate was a white male it could go elsewhere. No problem of gender, race, sexual orientation or whatever being chosen as long as it is the best person fir the job. But isn't it strange that the big change in the type of MP we have also coincided with the massive downgrade in quality of MP's we now have.

 

[Ring Of Steel]

I don't think there are many things you don't know all about judging from your posts.

He's named one person and used her to somehow prove that the entire country's leaders are selected on the basis of 'ticking boxes', not exactly overwhelming evidence to be honest.

 

[Ring Of Steel]

The problem is politics were much better when it was those who served the best got elected. Once the question was asked on why were most MP's white males it suddenly changed. That meant that if the best candidate was a white male it could go elsewhere. No problem of gender, race, sexual orientation or whatever being chosen as long as it is the best person fir the job. But isn't it strange that the big change in the type of MP we have also coincided with the massive downgrade in quality of MP's we now have.

Yes, oh for the good old days when old white men rules the waves.

 

[shmmeee]

Yeah that's true. Lots of rumours Blair jnr was being lined up for Robinson's seat back in the day. Coventry's always been a target to parachute in candidates, as it's pretty safe as they go. I don't like that kind of thing as it leads to people who maybe don't have an affinity for the local area, but it's been on the cards be they white, male, african, asian, and all the colours of LGBTQ+

Despite that, and despite it making the election results closer than they maybe should have been, as far as I can tell, both the new MPs are not doing too bad a job at all at being a local MP. Time will tell if they keep that up, of course.

Sultana has improved a lot. She was still on shouty activist mode at first but she’s toned that down a lot and comments on local issues more. I’ve been more impressed with the other woman who’s name escapes me right now though.

There were a lot of unhappy people, myself included, at exactly how marginal a safe seat had become. Hard to say how much of that was down to the candidate and how much down to general crap campaign organisation nationally and changing demographics though. Mattie Haven the Con candidate is a local councillor and from what I’ve seen works very hard locally so was a good opponent.

 

[Astute]

I don't think there are many things you don't know all about judging from your posts.

Please tell me more. Not my fault I know more than yourself as you don't seem to know about people like Sultana and are happy to argue the point without checking.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

I have had my results back after seven days and I am positive

Sorry to hear that. Look after yourself and I hope it's only mild.

 

[Astute]

Yes, oh for the good old days when old white men rules the waves.

Were politics better then? Why the sudden change?

 

[Astute]

He's named one person and used her to somehow prove that the entire country's leaders are selected on the basis of 'ticking boxes', not exactly overwhelming evidence to be honest.

Ah so she is the only one. Strange hiw you defend certain people.

Take a look. You will be shocked if you really don't know. Look at how many get selected and then deselected when the truth comes out. And it is from all parties. I chose Sultana as she is now in Coventry.

And where did I say leaders?

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Sultana has improved a lot. She was still on shouty activist mode at first but she’s toned that down a lot and comments on local issues more. I’ve been more impressed with the other woman who’s name escapes me right now though.

There were a lot of unhappy people, myself included, at exactly how marginal a safe seat had become. Hard to say how much of that was down to the candidate and how much down to general crap campaign organisation nationally and changing demographics though. Mattie Haven the Con candidate is a local councillor and from what I’ve seen works very hard locally so was a good opponent.

Yeah, there's always a certain resentment when people get parachuted in, with limited knowledge of local issues. At the end of the day, you're voting for an MP to represent you locally as well (a flaw *and* benefit of the system!). If you compare the margins to Colleen Fletcher's seat (and I wouldn't put her up as an especially outstanding MP!) then it's criminal how close they came to losing them.

 

[shmmeee]

The problem is politics were much better when it was those who served the best got elected. Once the question was asked on why were most MP's white males it suddenly changed. That meant that if the best candidate was a white male it could go elsewhere. No problem of gender, race, sexual orientation or whatever being chosen as long as it is the best person fir the job. But isn't it strange that the big change in the type of MP we have also coincided with the massive downgrade in quality of MP's we now have.

It’s a hypothesis I’ll give you that, but it’s only really been one party used sparingly so not sure it can explain away the drop in quality. You’ve also got to look at how the economy sucks smart people into finance rather than politics and as I said the reduced power of government generally that stop people entering.

Also the three examples I used were all white straight males. None of them “won” because of positive discrimination but because of frustration with a managerial political class.

For me the most impressive Labour leadership candidate was a BAME woman (Nandy), as was the most impressive deputy candidate IMO (Allen-Khan), both came after white British candidates. Similarly I’d argue Rishi Sunak is one of the more
Impressive Tories (though we are well into shiniest turd territory here) and yet is consistently behind unimpressive white people like Johnson, Raab, or Hancock in terms of positioning.

Equally, Diane Abbott and David Lammy can be terrible yet were elected before any positive discrimination.

 

[Ring Of Steel]

Were politics better then? Why the sudden change?

Politicians only try to appeal to what they see voters wanting. You could have had a hybrid of Churchill, Atlee, Thatcher & Blair running for PM and had they not focussed on brexit and immigrants they'd have got hammered because people like Farage, Banks & co would have destroyed them.

Politicians are not suddenly rubbish because they are generally weaker, they are only a product of what the population wants.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Similarly I’d argue Rishi Sunak is one of the more
Impressive Tories (though we are well into shiniest turd territory here) and yet is consistently behind unimpressive white people like Johnson, Raab, or Hancock in terms of positioning.

Whether you agree with his policies or not, Sajid Javid was arguably the most competent leadership candidate for the Tories.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Just looking at voting statistics in the last GE for age group and having read the Guardian article Stu has linked are the Tories decimating their target audience for votes? You were more likely to vote Tory if you were elderly or have parents who are. With the way the government has palmed of the Coronavirus issue off onto care homes wouldn’t that make you think at the next GE of how you were treated during this, or how you will be treated if you go into a care home during the next term, or how your parents were treated in all of this, or how your parents could be treated in the next term if they have to go into a care home?

You'd think so BUT I also think the Tories are aware of the fact we've barely just started their term in office and that gives them plenty of time to move things back onto others issues like Brexit and the economy by the time they need electing again.

 

[Ring Of Steel]

It’s a hypothesis I’ll give you that, but it’s only really been one party used sparingly so not sure it can explain away the drop in quality. You’ve also got to look at how the economy sucks smart people into finance rather than politics and as I said the reduced power of government generally that stop people entering.

Also the three examples I used were all white straight males. None of them “won” because of positive discrimination but because of frustration with a managerial political class.

For me the most impressive Labour leadership candidate was a BAME woman (Nandy), as was the most impressive deputy candidate IMO (Allen-Khan), both came after white British candidates. Similarly I’d argue Rishi Sunak is one of the more
Impressive Tories (though we are well into shiniest turd territory here) and yet is consistently behind unimpressive white people like Johnson, Raab, or Hancock in terms of positioning.

Equally, Diane Abbott and David Lammy can be terrible yet were elected before any positive discrimination.

The point is that in general nobody cares about how 'impressive' anyone is, all they care about is delivering brexit and how snappy their slogans & soundbites are. Personality and media support are now way, way more important than any personal qualities. And that is because in the main the population don't give a toss about the detail of the politics.

 

[Skybluefaz]

Please tell me more. Not my fault I know more than yourself as you don't seem to know about people like Sultana and are happy to argue the point without checking.

I know about Sultana and Owatemi, it was the apparent better non box ticking candidates I was not aware of. You make claim after claim with no real evidence. Can you tell me at what point in history the question was asked of why MPs were mostly white males? This according to you is the point it all nose dived.

 

[Astute]

It’s a hypothesis I’ll give you that, but it’s only really been one party used sparingly so not sure it can explain away the drop in quality. You’ve also got to look at how the economy sucks smart people into finance rather than politics and as I said the reduced power of government generally that stop people entering.

Also the three examples I used were all white straight males. None of them “won” because of positive discrimination but because of frustration with a managerial political class.

For me the most impressive Labour leadership candidate was a BAME woman (Nandy), as was the most impressive deputy candidate IMO (Allen-Khan), both came after white British candidates. Similarly I’d argue Rishi Sunak is one of the more
Impressive Tories (though we are well into shiniest turd territory here) and yet is consistently behind unimpressive white people like Johnson, Raab, or Hancock in terms of positioning.

Equally, Diane Abbott and David Lammy can be terrible yet were elected before any positive discrimination.

You don't have to be intelligent enough to choose between finance and being an MP. You need a different skill set.

These days do some sort of degree in politics and you are 80% on the way to becoming an MP. I prefer an MP to be older. I want them to have life skills. I want them to learn from life and not a text book or from someone else's opinion. That is why I like the idea of Starmer. Went into politics when older. Not in it for the money. He left a well paid profession to become an MP.

 

[Ring Of Steel]

Whether you agree with his policies or not, Sajid Javid was arguably the most competent leadership candidate for the Tories.

Apart from being heavily implicated in tax avoidance schemes & contributing to the worst (soon to be second worst) recession of all time

 

[Astute]

I know about Sultana and Owatemi, it was the apparent better non box ticking candidates I was not aware of. You make claim after claim with no real evidence. Can you tell me at what point in history the question was asked of why MPs were mostly white males? This according to you is the point it all nose dived.

How pathetic.

So you knew about the subject but made out you didn't know about the subject so you could have a dig.

OK you win.

 

[Ring Of Steel]

You don't have to be intelligent enough to choose between finance and being an MP. You need a different skill set.

These days do some sort of degree in politics and you are 80% on the way to becoming an MP. I prefer an MP to be older. I want them to have life skills. I want them to learn from life and not a text book or from someone else's opinion. That is why I like the idea of Starmer. Went into politics when older. Not in it for the money. He left a well paid profession to become an MP.

So by that logic you're a big Rees Mogg supporter?

 

[shmmeee]

Politicians only try to appeal to what they see voters wanting. You could have had a hybrid of Churchill, Atlee, Thatcher & Blair running for PM and had they not focussed on brexit and immigrants they'd have got hammered because people like Farage, Banks & co would have destroyed them.

Politicians are not suddenly rubbish because they are generally weaker, they are only a product of what the population wants.

Anti-immigrant sentiment at the last election was it its lowest point for decades though:



As an aside, did you see that research that showed Farage actually made people less anti-immigration because they didn’t want to be associated with him?

 

[Astute]

So by that logic you're a big Rees Mogg supporter?

You are funny.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Apart from being heavily implicated in tax avoidance schemes & contributing to the worst (soon to be second worst) recession of all time

You know, I'm going to avoid the political just for a moment, apart from in a wider sense.

In terms of career Javid, and Starmer for that matter, have achieved through hard work, determination, and ability - they both rose to high positions in their respective careers through that rather than by having rich or well-known parents.

As MPs, they've both shown themselves capable of constructing an argument intellectually, and trying to push it.

That's surely the basics for a leader? The only one in the Conservative Party leadership contest who came close to that was Jeremy Hunt, who came across surprisingly well and, again, I'm not exactly convinced given his efforts with the NHS he's who I'd want, but intellectually and in terms of making decisions, they've both shown capabilities which just haven't ever been apparent in the other lot of them.