Do you want to discuss boring politics? (178 Viewers)

[David O'Day]

The only Labour gain/bonus I can see is that the took the Peterborough and Cambridgeshire mayor of the Tories on second preference voting. Other than that...

I think the Greens deserve a mention for joining Labour in the second round of the Bristol Mayor election too, good accomplishment by the Greens in Bristol. Although they made gains in lots of places.

Taking the West of England Mayor's office from the Tories is a gain/bonus

 

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[David O'Day]

In the 2010 general election the Conservative manifesto promised a referendum on EU membership, they got 36.9% of the vote.

In the 2021 Scottish election the SNP manifesto promised a referendum on UK membership, they got 47.7% of the vote.

Why does one give a mandate and not the other?

Because the Tories in Westminster had the legal powers to call a referendum where as the Scottish government doesn't.

 

[Philosoraptor]

In the 2010 general election the Conservative manifesto promised a referendum on EU membership, they got 36.9% of the vote.

In the 2021 Scottish election the SNP manifesto promised a referendum on UK membership, they got 47.7% of the vote.

Why does one give a mandate and not the other?

The mandate is having enough votes in the Scottish Parliament to push a referendum through after an election campaign saying this is exactly what they would do if they got elected after Scotland voted to remain in the EU.

If Westminster says no then this, by itself, is a reason to hold a referendum because it is not a partnership of equals.

How Scotland votes in the referendum is entirely up to the Scottish electorate.

 

[Philosoraptor]

This was the better together campaign advert for the last referendum.

 

[Grendel]

The mandate is having enough votes in the Scottish Parliament to push a referendum through after an election campaign saying this is exactly what they would do if they got elected after Scotland voted to remain in the EU.

If Westminster says no then this, by itself, is a reason to hold a referendum because it is not a partnership of equals.

How Scotland votes in the referendum is entirely up to the Scottish electorate.

The difference is though it’s always in their manifesto so even if the lose again they can get elected and just do it all again

 

[skybluetony176]

Indeed. The union now rests on him repeatedly saying no to Sturgeon after he created the optimal conditions for her to ask in the first place

Too late for Northern Ireland I fear having put a border in the U.K.

The comment actually was part of him calling on the devolved government’s to come together in a joint “Team U.K.” Covid recovery summit. Don’t think he’s invited the devolved mayors into that. Presumably because it would crash the playing politics party. I don’t think Boris has the conviction to work with the elected mayors and he knows that “Team U.K.” is a dead duck but he can make look like a look I’m the one waving the flag exercise.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

This was the better together campaign advert for the last referendum.

I also got Yes leaflets through my door telling me how I, an Englishman, was by default less socially conscious than Scots, along with other lies about Holyrood funding. Two can play this particular game and we can always of course compare the centralisation at Westminster with the central belt bias of the SNP.

Just stop trying to divide people that are not each others’ enemies

 

[Philosoraptor]

The difference is though it’s always in their manifesto so even if the lose again they can get elected and just do it all again

It's a bit more nuanced than that. The EU referendum changed the very nature of Scotland against its will. This is why the argument is there for the referendum. Otherwise, they simply couldn't call for a referendum every 4 years or so.

They have a good argument.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Too late for Northern Ireland I fear having put a border in the U.K.

The comment actually was part of him calling on the devolved government’s to come together in a joint “Team U.K.” Covid recovery summit. Don’t think he’s invited the devolved mayors into that. Presumably because it would crash the playing politics party. I don’t think Boris has the conviction to work with the elected mayors and he knows that “Team U.K.” is a dead duck but he can make look like a look I’m the one waving the flag exercise.

NI is different, we cannot legally deny a border poll if it would likely be voted through. Scotland had one 7 years ago and the SNP will always argue for it regardless of whatever the UK government does because they will never accept that perhaps the Union works.

 

[Philosoraptor]

I also got Yes leaflets through my door telling me how I, an Englishman, was by default less socially conscious than Scots, along with other lies about Holyrood funding. Two can play this particular game and we can always of course compare the centralisation at Westminster with the central belt bias of the SNP.

Just stop trying to divide people that are not each others’ enemies

OH, I agree with central belt bias with the money being spent there, but this is exactly the same as the City Centre first scheme currently being run in English councils and Combined Authorities.

WMCA to provide £31m to help Coventry get ready for UK City of Culture

WMCA to provide £31m to help Coventry get ready for UK City of Culture

www.wmca.org.uk

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

It's a bit more nuanced than that. The EU referendum changed the very nature of Scotland against its will. This is why the argument is there for the referendum. Otherwise, they simply couldn't call for an election every 4 years or so.

They have a good argument.

COVID has seen SNP politicians arguing for 4 nation policies and pan UK consensus on vaccination and quarantine measures. They have argued for the union without realising

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

OH, I agree with central belt bias with the money being spent there, but this is exactly the same as the City Centre first scheme currently being run in English councils and Combined Authorities.

Not just that, but centralising all the police means you have Grampian police using the same cars and equipment as they do in Glasgow to lesser effect. If you call the police from Aberdeen you’ll get redirected to a call centre in Govan etc etc.

At some point we need to accept that you don’t always get what you want and the answer is not to make every street or house an independent nation.

 

[PVA]

This is a very good piece. Pretty much sums up my views.

In a nutshell: Tories have gone populist to win the Red Wall/working class. We just have to wait for them to fail on 'levelling up', which they will.

 

[Philosoraptor]

Not just that, but centralising all the police means you have Grampian police using the same cars and equipment as they do in Glasgow to lesser effect. If you call the police from Aberdeen you’ll get redirected to a call centre in Govan etc etc.

At some point we need to accept that you don’t always get what you want and the answer is not to make every street or house an independent nation.

Oh, I fully agree. The damage Combined Authorities and local councils are doing to Public Services to save money is shockingly bad.

Let's not forget though. Whatever party is in power, they have all agreed to do this without putting it to the people in a referendum first. DemSoc did say this needed a referendum and good old Ann Lucas said it was populist.

One of the worst council leaders Coventry has ever had.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Mark Drakeford talking a lot of common sense on the union this morning. Focus on just running the country properly rather than gimmicks with planting flags everywhere.

Do keep asking Nicola where she got the vaccines from though

 

[Philosoraptor]

Right, these footie stats aren't going to do themselves. Got two games left. Back later.

 

[Evo1883]

I still think there are more unionists in Scotland and they would win a referendum .

If unionists win Westminster should dissolve Holyrood and rule from Westminster..can't have this shite every couple years it's frankly ridiculous the idea that Scotland are oppressed

It's English hatred that fuels sturgeon and her SNP cronies
Irish influence In Scotland doesn't help matters .

It's all nonsense

 

[Ian1779]

I was expecting this reply,Lefties that only see their side of the argument.
Get your heads out of the sand it’s like a child sticking their fingers in their ears going nananana.....
Labour are heading into oblivion but you cannot see it.

Happy to read the words of some working class people that have become disillusioned with Labour, the party needs to hear more of it.

But these are the ramblings of a Lord no less, whose ability to connect with the working class was demonstrated in the erosion of the Labour vote in his constituency, before jumping out when he knew he was destined to lose. The guy is a prick.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

View attachment 20014

Put a blue background on that and a picture of JRM...or Johnson...or Gove...or IDS...or Patel and it's just as, if not more, accurate.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Chances of Boris allowing a referendum - 0

But if Scotland go independent the rest of the UK is pretty much going to be Tory in perpetuity.

 

[Deleted member 4439]

This is a very good piece. Pretty much sums up my views.

Good post, an insightful piece, and I agree PVA: not until the Labour relic has truly started crumbling into dust can the Tories be truly opposed. The question is, what replaces Labour, as a main party of opposition? I can't see it being anything than an instable coalition of the idealistic and the dispossessed.

There's no question that Boris has the neolibs riled!

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Did anybody actually care a referendum was called though ? As everybody expected a remain win .

This is the break up of the union , its our constitution , 400 years .

Not some trading bloc agreement

Has to be concrete for Westminster to allow it to happen, and with less votes than pro independence parties , why would Westminster allow it...they wont

It's Boris. He does whatever he thinks will be most popular and beneficial for him. Fuck the consequences.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

How many foodbanks qualifies as an achievement then?

You should look upwards sometimes,

But really, just how many foodbanks are good enough?

None, because they aren't needed. If you're having to have loads because people can't even afford to feed themselves that isn't a good thing - it's a monumental failure

 

[Deleted member 4439]

None, because they aren't needed. If you're having to have loads because people can't even afford to feed themselves that isn't a good thing - it's a monumental failure

boy oh boy.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

boy oh boy.

So you're saying it would be more of an achievement to have loads of foodbanks because people can't afford food than none because people can?

By the same sort of thinking having loads of people on employment benefit is better than fewer.

If you can't see that point then there is no helping you.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

And so it goes on. Rather than acknowledge the failings of a party, blame those failings on the charisma of just one man in power.

Point missed.

People have been saying how the Labour party are treating working class people like scum. When it's been proven the fanboy Boris has put it into print his opinion of the working man is scum. As does his father. And JRm - remember what he said about the Grenfell victims and how he'd have been fine bacuase he was more clever and would've left the building, when the only reason many didn't was because they followed the advice they were given. And he's rather scathing of people not doing what the authorities tell them.

 

[Deleted member 4439]

How many foodbanks qualifies as an achievement then?

""

 

[Deleted member 4439]

Point missed.

People have been saying how the Labour party are treating working class people like scum. When it's been proven the fanboy Boris has put it into print his opinion of the working man is scum. As does his father. And JRm - remember what he said about the Grenfell victims and how he'd have been fine bacuase he was more clever and would've left the building, when the only reason many didn't was because they followed the advice they were given. And he's rather scathing of people not doing what the authorities tell them.

Point missed. Boris is a old bullshitting etonian. Admittedly, probably half the cabinet are, but Boris is one person. The perception is that there is a generation of Labour activists and MPs who have been sending out a wrong message. In the plural.

You and PVA are very, very hard work.

 

[Skybluefaz]

Fucking crackpots. This sort of shite should never see the light of day.

 

[Skybluefaz]

Imagine trusting the railings more than the BBC.

 

[PVA]

Point missed. Boris is a old bullshitting etonian. Admittedly, probably half the cabinet are, but Boris is one person. The perception is that there is a generation of Labour activists and MPs who have been sending out a wrong message. In the plural.

You and PVA are very, very hard work.

You posted a made up meme/poster that says labour hate the working class.

Whereas there is actual evidence, in black and white, where members of the current government including the PM himself, Raab, Truss etc let us know exactly what they think of the working class.

The mental gymnastics people go through to defend the tories is fucking incredible.

And you still haven't grasped the food bank issue I see.

 

[Deleted member 4439]

PVA, I understand your passion. But every single time you fail to understand what is being said (I don't think that's wilful) and which most often flies over your head like a flying thing. I think I said once before that you are simply too much like hard work and so I would no longer respond. I don't think it fair on you either. So I wish you well and farewell.

(But you might want to stop misgendering me, that would be nice )

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Point missed. Boris is a old bullshitting etonian. Admittedly, probably half the cabinet are, but Boris is one person. The perception is that there is a generation of Labour activists and MPs who have been sending out a wrong message. In the plural.

You and PVA are very, very hard work.

Exactly. Probably half the cabinet (or more). And that's not including the mental ones we don't here much about. So, also very much in the plural.

So if the opinion is that both the two main parties think you're scum but one it's fine because they think they're better than you by birthright/class and so it's OK to vote for them. If that's your take on it then it's you that thinks the British working man is an idiot.

 

[Deleted member 4439]

Exactly. Probably half the cabinet (or more). And that's not including the mental ones we don't here much about. So, also very much in the plural.

So if the opinion is that both the two main parties think you're scum but one it's fine because they think they're better than you by birthright/class and so it's OK to vote for them. If that's your take on it then it's you that thinks the British working man is an idiot.

Yes, it's fine that the Tories think you're scum - that's their natural position, but they know how to run an economy and a country. I expected better of Labour, but I take your point, I should perhaps lower my expectations.

 

[PVA]

Exactly. Probably half the cabinet (or more). And that's not including the mental ones we don't here much about. So, also very much in the plural.

So if the opinion is that both the two main parties think you're scum but one it's fine because they think they're better than you by birthright/class and so it's OK to vote for them. If that's your take on it then it's you that thinks the British working man is an idiot.

He consistently says the working class are thick. He's the only one that says it. Repeatedly... And then complains that people call the working class thick.