WW2. War started for Britain on this day. (2 Viewers)

[Grendel]

I just don’t get this. “Particularly terrible”. What are you so defensive about? Don’t need to teach kids that we were the worst, we don’t have to compare anything. Just have to educate them about it…good bad and ugly. Why is that so bad and why do you automatically resort to whatabouttery?

So what do we teach them?

 

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[skybluetony176]

I think you’ve mistaken me for someone else

Yeah you’re right, I did. Apologies.

 

[Grendel]

Yeah you’re right, I did. Apologies.

What do we teach people about the Empire Tony in schools out of interest?

 

[Flying Fokker]

So, looking forward to our discussions about an escalation in Eastern Europe. when it starts to hot up in Poland and the leaders in Eastern Europe have their own recollections of what war was to them.

Yeah you’re right, I did. Apologies.

There you go, if wars were as simple.

 

[Grendel]

Not sure why this thread continues to conflate being taught about atrocities and apologising for them, but since you mention it there have indeed been several modern-day apologies for Viking raids and the Spanish inquisition from Scandinavian/Spanish/Catholic officials.

You do keep mentioning the same thing but I’ve asked several people on here what is taught in schools now about the empire and no one has an answer

All we have is Tony in the 80’s at some theme park dressed as a Victorian chanting the Empire is great

Sounds like made up bollocks to me

 

[Grendel]

Fact is we were the Nazis before the Nazis were.

I mean this is really the crux of the matter and it’s vile offensive drivel even by Tony’s standards

 

[Flying Fokker]

You do keep mentioning the same thing but I’ve asked several people on here what is taught in schools now about the empire and no one has an answer

All we have is Tony in the 80’s at some theme park dressed as a Victorian chanting the Empire is great

Sounds like made up bollocks to me

My guess is…exactly what we were taught. Nothing. It’s offered as a minor at today‘s Universities. For those who don’t do Media Studies.

 

[Flying Fokker]

How about The Killing Times period in Australian history? The empire spent over 100 years deliberately trying to eradicate the aboriginal people again hunting men, women and children. It took another 100 years for the aboriginal population to recover we were that successful in that crusade.

As did the Spanish in South America. Unforgivable, unfortunate and wrong

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

You do keep mentioning the same thing but I’ve asked several people on here what is taught in schools now about the empire and no one has an answer

All we have is Tony in the 80’s at some theme park dressed as a Victorian chanting the Empire is great

Sounds like made up bollocks to me

In the GCSE and A-level History syllabuses you might encounter:

British India, including the East India Company and the independence movement
Mandatory Palestine
The Opium wars
The slave trade

Interestingly my wife who was educated almost entirely in Scotland studied it to the equivalent of A-level and was basically only taught about William Wallace and the wars of independence all the way through. In England the curriculum is really quite broad.

 

[Grendel]

My guess is…exactly what we were taught. Nothing.

Well at a level in the 80’s i think you had questions in exams you took a view and provided evidence so it wasn’t all soaped up at all

 

[skybluetony176]

My guess is…exactly what we were taught. Nothing.

The government rejected teaching about colonialism and the slave trade as recently as 2021 following a petition stemming from the BLM protests. The excuse was that it would lower standards. Make of that what you will. Corbyn was also roundly lambasted for suggesting that we teach it while opposition leader.

 

[Flying Fokker]

I mean this is really the crux of the matter and it’s vile offensive drivel even by Tony’s standards

Tony is a tad out of Top Dead Centre metaphorically speaking.

Im not sure he knows what he is politically? Maybe closet dictator without a country. I have a feeling we’d all be Nazis if we’d listened to todays views on empire.

 

[Grendel]

The government rejected teaching about colonialism and the slave trade as recently as 2021 following a petition stemming from the BLM protests. The excuse was that it would lower standards. Make of that what you will.

I was taught about elements of it in the 1980’s Tony

What did BLM actually want teaching?

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

The government rejected teaching about colonialism and the slave trade as recently as 2021 following a petition stemming from the BLM protests. The excuse was that it would lower standards. Make of that what you will.

Hmmm. Don’t think so. Take a look here especially under ‘Unit 3’.

AS and A Level - History A - H105, H505 - OCR

OCR AS and A Level History A (from 2015) qualification information including specification, exam materials, teaching resources, learning resources

www.ocr.org.uk

 

[Grendel]

Hmmm. Don’t think so. Take a look here especially under ‘Unit 3’.

AS and A Level - History A - H105, H505 - OCR

OCR AS and A Level History A (from 2015) qualification information including specification, exam materials, teaching resources, learning resources

www.ocr.org.uk

Time to say hello and wave goodbye Tony

 

[skybluetony176]

Hmmm. Don’t think so. Take a look here especially under ‘Unit 3’.

AS and A Level - History A - H105, H505 - OCR

OCR AS and A Level History A (from 2015) qualification information including specification, exam materials, teaching resources, learning resources

www.ocr.org.uk

So you’re saying if you take history as an option in the final 2 years of your education there’s a chance that in 2015 you might learn something about the empire. Hardly compulsory learning is it and it doesn’t change the fact that schools minister Nick Gibb did say in 2021 that there would be no compulsory teaching about empire and the slave trade as it would lower standards.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

So you’re saying if you take history as an option in the final 2 years of your education there’s a chance that in 2015 you might learn something about the empire. Hardly compulsory learning is it and it doesn’t change the fact that schools minister Nick Gibb did say in 2021 that there would be no compulsory teaching about empire and the slave trade as it would lower standards.

*sigh* Here's a GCSE one then.

Shaping the nation

www.aqa.org.uk

 

[Grendel]

So you’re saying if you take history as an option in the final 2 years of your education there’s a chance that in 2015 you might learn something about the empire. Hardly compulsory learning is it and it doesn’t change the fact that schools minister Nick Gibb did say in 2021 that there would be no compulsory teaching about empire and the slave trade as it would lower standards.

When did you give up on history at school Tony

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

When did you give up on history at school Tony

Before he tries to argue that we cover it up at Key Stage 3:

National curriculum in England: history programmes of study

www.gov.uk

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Still not equivalent to the Holocaust. You won’t convince me the British are the the most evil people to walk the Earth. Sorry. We did what everyone was doing. Spain, Turkey,Netherlands, Norway, France, China, India, all have these sorts of stories in their past. Because that’s what everyone did in war in the past. These are not the same as trying to exterminate the Jews.

Do you think Norwegian kids are guilt tripped over Viking pillages? Spanish kids wracked with guilt about the inquisition?

Can you honestly not see the difference with the rise of fascism is early 20th century Germany and Britains history of colonialism? Do you really think in 2023 they should be treated the same?

To be fair I think he's just relating it to this country because that's where we are. I'm sure he feels every other country, like Spain, France, Dutch etc should also offer a rounded view on their past and show both the good and bad.

I also think that it is worthwhile showing what other countries have done as well, as it helps show how history repeats itself and we need to spot any similarites that crop up in the present day to prevent it getting to the levels they have in history.

 

[robbiekeane]

What do we teach people about the Empire Tony in schools out of interest?

I didn’t do history at GCSE (not sure if this is mandatory now) and I’ve said a few times it might have changed…although a conversation with my younger siblings would indicate not, but I did not learn anything about the America’s, Australia, South Africa, India.

I learnt a lot about European history and the transatlantic slave trade, including some very graphic videos of the story of Kunta Kinte which was powerful.

 

[robbiekeane]

I honestly have no idea why it’s such a big deal..there’s way more opposition and/or sensitivity to something that I really don’t see the argument against. Our whole position on the world stage is a result of the British empire. I find it really fascinating and whatever your views on it (and there are lots of bad things by todays standards in the “how”), it was truly an incredible accomplishment for a tiny island nation.

We should learn more about it including the impact it had on indigenous and First Nation peoples.

Not because we were the worst people and worse than every other empire in the world

Not because it was out of the norm

Not because the modern day Military strategy of the US isn’t essentially neo-colonialism

But because it happened and shaped the modern world, and we should teach it warts and all. I would definitely had a much greater understanding and appreciation for people from other areas of the world (e.g. why there’s such a tie between Indian people and the UK) which can only be a good thing?

I didn’t even know the detailed story of Hong kong until about 4 years ago

 

[Grendel]

I didn’t do history at GCSE (not sure if this is mandatory now) and I’ve said a few times it might have changed…although a conversation with my younger siblings would indicate not, but I did not learn anything about the America’s, Australia, South Africa, India.

I learnt a lot about European history and the transatlantic slave trade, including some very graphic videos of the story of Kunta Kinte which was powerful.

As I’ve said I learnt about south Africa and the uk concentration camp ideology and its “employment” of Chinese slaves

 

[robbiekeane]

As I’ve said I learnt about south Africa and the uk concentration camp ideology and its “employment” of Chinese slaves

i didn't. So at the very least some consistency wouldn't hurt

 

[skybluetony176]

Before he tries to argue that we cover it up at Key Stage 3:

National curriculum in England: history programmes of study

www.gov.uk

*sigh* Here's a GCSE one then.

Shaping the nation

www.aqa.org.uk

So again optional not mandatory

 

[clint van damme]

The podcast Empire that Tony mentioned is a cracking listen for anyone interested in this sort of thing.
Only just got into it but really good.

 

[skybluetony176]

Before he tries to argue that we cover it up at Key Stage 3:

National curriculum in England: history programmes of study

www.gov.uk

Quick question. What percentage of school children attend a free school or academy?

 

[skybluetony176]

Quick question. What percentage of school children attend a free school or academy?

You clearly don’t want to answer that so I’ll answer it for you, 40% at primary level and 80% at secondary level.

Follow up question that you probably also won’t want to answer. Are free schools and academy’s mandated to follow the curriculum you posted?

 

[shmmeee]

You clearly don’t want to answer that so I’ll answer it for you, 40% at primary level and 80% at secondary level.

Follow up question that you probably also won’t want to answer. Are free schools and academy’s mandated to follow the curriculum you posted?

Here’s one for you: how many don’t?

For context in ten years I only ever taught in academies and free schools. I never taught in a school that didn’t follow the national curriculum for main subjects. Mostly they just fanny about with Business or RE.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

You clearly don’t want to answer that so I’ll answer it for you, 40% at primary level and 80% at secondary level.

Follow up question that you probably also won’t want to answer. Are free schools and academy’s mandated to follow the curriculum you posted?

I laughed because most state schools will use the national curriculum as the basis for planning their own schemes of work. And yes GCSE History is an optional subject, but it’s a very popular one nationally and so in the process pretty much every child will learn something of Empire in KS3 while about 300,000 a year will study it further in KS4.

You seem to forget that one of us has worked in schools for the last 7 years.

 

[Grendel]

I laughed because most state schools will use the national curriculum as the basis for planning their own schemes of work. And yes GCSE History is an optional subject, but it’s a very popular one nationally and so in the process pretty much every child will learn something of Empire in KS3 while about 300,000 a year will study it further in KS4.

You seem to forget that one of us has worked in schools for the last 7 years.

At least they aren’t full of wealthy foreign students as private schools are

 

[skybluetony176]

Here’s one for you: how many don’t?

For context in ten years I only ever taught in academies and free schools. I never taught in a school that didn’t follow the national curriculum for main subjects. Mostly they just fanny about with Business or RE.

So you’re saying that it’s not mandatory to teach the majority of children in schools about the slave trade and the negative sides of colonisation and empire. Thank you for the clarification.

 

[Grendel]

So you’re saying that it’s not mandatory to teach the majority of children in schools about the slave trade and the negative sides of colonisation and empire. Thank you for the clarification.

Why should it be? Also why purely negative impacts?

 

[skybluetony176]

I laughed because most state schools will use the national curriculum as the basis for planning their own schemes of work. And yes GCSE History is an optional subject, but it’s a very popular one nationally and so in the process pretty much every child will learn something of Empire in KS3 while about 300,000 a year will study it further in KS4.

You seem to forget that one of us has worked in schools for the last 7 years.

Only 40% of children take up history as an option for GCSE’s don’t they? Don’t sound that popular to me. It’s certainly far from the mandatory teaching of the negatives of empire you’re trying to argue is mandatory with your links that say suggested not statutory at the top of every list.

Which brings us on to the next question. What will they learn about Empire? During the BLM protests it came out for instance that when schools do teach specifically about slavery they focus on the abolition of slavery not the ugly details or about how we all still feel the “benefits” of it to this day.

The point I made right at the very start is that there is no mandatory education in schools to teach the negative aspects of our country’s history unlike in Germany where it is mandatory. I thank you for your assistance in confirming that to be correct. Even though you thought you were doing the opposite.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Only 40% of children take up history as an option for GCSE’s don’t they? Don’t sound that popular to me. It’s certainly far from the mandatory teaching of the negatives of empire you’re trying to argue is mandatory with your links that say suggested not statutory at the top of every list.

Which brings us on to the next question. What will they learn about Empire? During the BLM protests it came out for instance that when schools do teach specifically about slavery they focus on the abolition of slavery not the ugly details or about how we all still feel the “benefits” of it to this day.

The point I made right at the very start is that there is no mandatory education in schools to teach the negative aspects of our country’s history unlike in Germany where it is mandatory. I thank you for your assistance in confirming that to be correct. Even though you thought you were doing the opposite.

I never claimed it was mandatory. I claimed it was actively taught, which it is. Also outside of English and Maths, most of the other subjects are optional at GCSE. Personally I think more science should also be mandatory, it isn’t. C’est la vie.

All school kids will be studying History up to the age of 13/14 at least meaning that they will do some study of empire in that time and the 300,000 taking it to GCSE will do even more. The exam boards also have to get their specifications signed off by Ofqual. If we were so ashamed of our imperial past, the regulator could force them to take it off the spec. They don’t.