My concern with Robins (8 Viewers)

[Deleted member 9744]

Just to refer back to our debate, I’m not putting the blame solely on him, I’m not blaming him for us being bad, I just don’t rate him as a player. He has to play atm as that’s all we have in that position (apart from maybe Lati) but I don’t blame him for us doing bad, there’s a number of factors why we’re so shit atm.

You still haven't said who has contributed more than Eccles this season.

 

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[BlueSkiesForever]

Absolute rubbish

All got our opinions I suppose, mine’s that Eccles is alright but nothing special. None of this matters one jot anyway as we’ve unfortunately got him playing defensive mid for the foreseeable future.

 

[BlueSkiesForever]

You still haven't said who has contributed more than Eccles this season.

Not sure if you missed it like 3 times but I said Sakamoto. In fact you even tried to make a joke about it earlier so you must have acknowledged it. Pound for pound, minute for minute, Saka has shown more willing to get forward and contribute more than Eccles has. I realise they’re different jobs but I simply don’t rate Eccles, you do rate Eccles and that’s basically end of story, we’re never going to come to an agreement so I’m happy just to leave it there tbh.
Talking about Josh Eccles all night is just draining tbh.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Not sure if you missed it like 3 times but I said Sakamoto. In fact you even tried to make a joke about it earlier so you must have acknowledged it. Pound for pound, minute for minute, Saka has shown more willing to get forward and contribute more than Eccles has. I realise they’re different jobs but I simply don’t rate Eccles, you do rate Eccles and that’s basically end of story, we’re never going to come to an agreement so I’m happy just to leave it there tbh.
Talking about Josh Eccles all night is just draining tbh.

Eccles is a good squad player who’s having way too much asked of him because of the club’s failure to recruit in midfield. Likewise Sheaf who is being panned for playing poorly has been brought back early because we’re desperate.

Saka needs to show more end product, but he looks energetic, positive and skilful. As I said elsewhere, it’s a pity we didn’t sign more like him. Will only get better I think.

 

[Deleted member 9744]

Not sure if you missed it like 3 times but I said Sakamoto. In fact you even tried to make a joke about it earlier so you must have acknowledged it. Pound for pound, minute for minute, Saka has shown more willing to get forward and contribute more than Eccles has. I realise they’re different jobs but I simply don’t rate Eccles, you do rate Eccles and that’s basically end of story, we’re never going to come to an agreement so I’m happy just to leave it there tbh.
Talking about Josh Eccles all night is just draining tbh.

So Sakamoto who couldn't even maintain a place in the team in his favoured position when vanEwijk was injured has been our best player and has contributed more than anyone so far.

I am not against Sakamoto and hope he goes on to fulfil his potential btw. He has some real talent but he has not done much so far.

Really you can't be arguing he has achieved more than anyone else so far?

 

[BlueSkiesForever]

So Sakamoto who couldn't even maintain a place in the team in his favoured position when vanEwijk was injured has been our best player and has contributed more than anyone so far.

I am not against Sakamoto and hope he goes on to fulfil his potential btw. He has some real talent but he has not done much so far.

Really you can't be arguing he has achieved more than anyone else so far?

I completely get what you’re saying and I can definitely see it from your point of view, Eccles has started more and has put more shifts in than most but I just feel he’s at the ceiling of his ability. I get your point about how he’s physically contributed more than most of our players but I just can’t help but feel he’s not really “contributed” much, I know it sounds a bit mad but I just get the impression he’s “contributed” a lot but he’s not really “contributing” if you get me? It’s a bit of an oxymoron thing but the feeling I get from him is that he does a lot but it doesn’t really get us anywhere significant.

Anyway I’ll leave it there as I don’t really think it’s that important, and he’ll keep starting until we get another defensive midfielder anyway. Overall, I don’t hate him but I don’t rate him either and I think that’s probably fair for the current level that he’s at.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

I realise Saka and Eccles do completely different jobs but my personal opinion is if I had to have one I’d pick Saka over Eccles every time. That’s just me though, many others will disagree and that’s fine, that’s football and it’s all part of the game I suppose.

Surely it depends on what position needs filling as to who you'd pick.

A team full of Eccles and a team full of Sakamoto's would both lose. One would be exciting to watch but wouldn't have any defensive ability and get overpowered. The other would be extremely dull but would be able to compete more.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

People who hate stats hate them because they don't back up their prejudices or flawed observations.

While I think stats are extremely useful, it also needs to be remembered they can be flawed as by their nature they are best for measuring very specific aspects rather than a bigger picture. Sometimes the methodology is flawed and sometimes they are set out with a deliberate bias to support a particular position.

Like with history, sources can be misleading or inaccurate but that doesn't mean you ignore them because of it, you just have to factor that possibility in and look for more sources to try and get a better overall picture.

So really what is needed is loads of stats and working how to improve those that are poor without affecting those that are good too much.

 

[BlueSkiesForever]

While I think stats are extremely useful, it also needs to be remembered they can be flawed as by their nature they are best for measuring very specific aspects rather than a bigger picture. Sometimes the methodology is flawed and sometimes they are set out with a deliberate bias to support a particular position.

Like with history, sources can be misleading or inaccurate but that doesn't mean you ignore them because of it, you just have to factor that possibility in and look for more sources to try and get a better overall picture.

So really what is needed is loads of stats and working how to improve those that are poor without affecting those that are good too much.

Completely agree, whilst it looks stupid to disagree with stats they sometimes only show a very niche part of a game. For example how do you measure creativity or confidence? There are probably multiple attributes that people subconsciously recognise when watching a particular player in a game and whilst it seems like a lame excuse to avoid the factual “proof” of stats it’s genuinely something I think gets overlooked at times.

 

[Warwickhunt]

Nobody outperforms or underperforms the xG forever, that's the benefit of it. You can lose a match and be unlucky. You can lose 3 matches and be unlucky, but eventually, those balance out given long enough.

It is like playing roulette in a casino, the house might lose on 5 spins - but there is success if they don't panic and change the rules when stats say eventually they win.

It gives a better understanding of longer-term patterns because we are all wildly biased when we look at matches. This is the fundamental principle behind Brentford and Brighton, that we all have wild bias and that stats help you to unpick them.

For example, it is no surprise that Brighton have a dearth of Ecuadorian talent - stats showed it was an underpenetrated scouting pool, producing higher quality prospects than people would expect. They go in and find cheap prospects before anybody else, Caicedo, Sarmiento and Estupinan.

If you look at Brentford and the way they play football, they rarely take shots unless they are in a high xG location, and they consistently look to play the ball into those locations. Thomas Frank takes substitution advice from a team of analysts who show the underlying analytics and make suggestions based on them.

Sent from my SM-S911B using Tapatalk

Can you tell me what they class as a shot as I never seem to agree with the game stats atcthe end

 

[CCFCSteve]

While I think stats are extremely useful, it also needs to be remembered they can be flawed as by their nature they are best for measuring very specific aspects rather than a bigger picture. Sometimes the methodology is flawed and sometimes they are set out with a deliberate bias to support a particular position.

Like with history, sources can be misleading or inaccurate but that doesn't mean you ignore them because of it, you just have to factor that possibility in and look for more sources to try and get a better overall picture.

So really what is needed is loads of stats and working how to improve those that are poor without affecting those that are good too much.

Exactly. I bet if people checked hamers stats when he was playing a little deeper (before last 3-4 months) they wouldn’t have been great. He was always trying progressive passes, some would work, some wouldn’t, leading to a lower pass completion than many who will just take the easy option and pass it back and sideways. The ones that did work probably weren’t ‘assists’ as they were coming from deeper but may have opened up an easy assist for another player.

Also what about the players who have set up our 19+ big missed chances who will be missing out on assists through no fault of their own.

Sakas a very tidy player. Comfortable with both feet and sure end product will come when we find our shooting boots

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Exactly. I bet if people checked hamers stats when he was playing a little deeper (before last 2-3 months) they wouldn’t have been great. He was always trying progressive passes, some would work, some wouldn’t, leading to a lower pass completion than many who will just take the easy option and pass it back and sideways. The ones that did work probably weren’t ‘assists’ as they were coming from deeper but may have opened up an easy assist for another player.

I did post some stats that showed Allen was better than Hamer. Nice to see so many agreeing...

 

[SBAndy]

Exactly. I bet if people checked hamers stats when he was playing a little deeper (before last 3-4 months) they wouldn’t have been great. He was always trying progressive passes, some would work, some wouldn’t, leading to a lower pass completion than many who will just take the easy option and pass it back and sideways. The ones that did work probably weren’t ‘assists’ as they were coming from deeper but may have opened up an easy assist for another player.

Also what about the players who have set up our 19+ big missed chances who will be missing out on assists through no fault of their own.

Let me introduce you to Key Passes and xA.

*runs for cover*

 

[baldy]

Bore off with the endless chat about stats ffs

 

[Hobo]

This isnt a Robins out post

But what I will say is, for the first time in his tenure, I genuinely believe he hasnt got a fucking clue how to resolve this and seems lost

People expecting too much too soon on the back of last season.

It is a whole new team and will take time to bed in.

We have signed some good players but they need time to learn how to play together.

There is a lot of work to be done but Robins and Viveash will get us there.

Players need to be braver. I am a fan of possession football, but there comes a time when a defence packs a penalty area you have to tip it in. You have to build pressure and make something happen.

You have to give the attackers something to attack and force errors. The WBA centre backs had a night off while we worked passes around the penalty area looking for the perfect pass?

We need more tempo and a desire to try and be more direct. The passing template is far too predictable at the moment.

Fans were great at Rotherham and home to WBA l hope they keep it up.

 

[SHUNT31]

Yet the data is used by practically every professional club. Someone should tell them.

Arguably two of the best ran clubs in the PL, Brentford and Brighton use stats to find players no one has heard of that turn out to be pretty decent. In fact, Brighton’s success has been largely down to being ahead of the rest of the PL when using stat metrics to find players.

 

[SBAndy]

Arguably two of the best ran clubs in the PL, Brentford and Brighton use stats to find players no one has heard of that turn out to be pretty decent. In fact, Brighton’s success has been largely down to being ahead of the rest of the PL when using stat metrics to find players.

Baldy says no stats though so pipe down.

 

[AFCCOVENTRY]

Not having a Adi in the technical area to dish out instructions is causing Robins issues as well I think. He’s lost the main voice on the touch line for game management.

 

[Otis]

I think some have been blindsided a bit by Sakamoto's trickery. So far though he's had no end product. Much of his crossing has been poor.

I can see why people like him, because he looks exciting when he's on the ball. But he needs to produce. No use beating 3 defenders and then delivering a bad cross.

I think he may be one for the future to be honest. Not been convinced by him yet. He's a bit all mouth and no trousers at the moment.

 

[hill83]

I think some have been blindsided a bit by Sakamoto's trickery. So far though he's had no end product. Much of his crossing has been poor.

I can see why people like him, because he looks exciting when he's on the ball. But he needs to produce. No use beating 3 defenders and then delivering a bad cross.

I think he may be one for the future to be honest. Not been convinced by him yet. He's a bit all mouth and no trousers at the moment.

You are new to football if you say that though. So pipe down.

 

[Tommo1993]

I think some have been blindsided a bit by Sakamoto's trickery. So far though he's had no end product. Much of his crossing has been poor.

I can see why people like him, because he looks exciting when he's on the ball. But he needs to produce. No use beating 3 defenders and then delivering a bad cross.

I think he may be one for the future to be honest. Not been convinced by him yet. He's a bit all mouth and no trousers at the moment.

Tbf Otis as much as I agree with the end product thing, I think he’s been the only one of all our signings to show any flair and bravery.

 

[skybluecam]

I think some have been blindsided a bit by Sakamoto's trickery. So far though he's had no end product. Much of his crossing has been poor.

I can see why people like him, because he looks exciting when he's on the ball. But he needs to produce. No use beating 3 defenders and then delivering a bad cross.

I think he may be one for the future to be honest. Not been convinced by him yet. He's a bit all mouth and no trousers at the moment.

He’s 27 so he’s not one for the future.

In a team where no one is really producing any end product he looks one of the closest to doing so. Body language and effort looks much better than some as well.

 

[Otis]

He’s 27 so he’s not one for the future.

In a team where no one is really producing any end product he looks one of the closest to doing so. Body language and effort looks much better than some as well.

I didn't realise he was 27.

 

[Otis]

He’s 27 so he’s not one for the future.

In a team where no one is really producing any end product he looks one of the closest to doing so. Body language and effort looks much better than some as well.

Yeah, I get all that. I like him. I was expecting a bit more from him though in creating opportunity for others. He gets in great positions and beats his man, but then hardly anything comes from it.

I am hoping that is still him learning the game over here and how we play

 

[skybluecam]

I didn't realise he was 27.

Neither did I until the club posted about his birthday the other week to be fair! Did surprise me a bit, there’s not much chance of turning a profit on him.

Yeah, I get all that. I like him. I was expecting a bit more from him though in creating opportunity for others. He gets in great positions and beats his man, but then hardly anything comes from it.

I am hoping that is still him learning the game over here and how we play

My hope is he’s suffering from constant player/shape changes in offensive areas which makes it difficult to build understanding with where his teammates will be.

 

[sixfoursix]

You are new to football if you say that though. So pipe down.

according to his stats he's 103

 

[SHUNT31]

Not having a Adi in the technical area to dish out instructions is causing Robins issues as well I think. He’s lost the main voice on the touch line for game management.

Adi can still be on the touchline, just not at the same time as MR.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Arguably two of the best ran clubs in the PL, Brentford and Brighton use stats to find players no one has heard of that turn out to be pretty decent. In fact, Brighton’s success has been largely down to being ahead of the rest of the PL when using stat metrics to find players.

So then the issue is finding out which stats/metrics they're using, because it must be different to other teams with far larger resources and scouting.

It's all very well saying 'use stats', but you've got to use the right ones. Brentford and Brighton clearly are right now.

 

[Sky Blue Harry H]

Adi can still be on the touchline, just not at the same time as MR.

Sorted

 

[SlowerThanPlatt]

He’s 27 so he’s not one for the future.

In a team where no one is really producing any end product he looks one of the closest to doing so. Body language and effort looks much better than some as well.

Lots of Japanese footballers go through university and don’t start playing professional until their early 20s, so in “football years” he’s 24-25

 

[Otis]

Lots of Japanese footballers go through university and don’t start playing professional until their early 20s, so in “football years” he’s 24-25

I may start using that on my dating profile.

Convincing them I am Japanese might prove to be a bit harder though.

 

[BlueSkiesForever]

I think some have been blindsided a bit by Sakamoto's trickery. So far though he's had no end product. Much of his crossing has been poor.

I can see why people like him, because he looks exciting when he's on the ball. But he needs to produce. No use beating 3 defenders and then delivering a bad cross.

I think he may be one for the future to be honest. Not been convinced by him yet. He's a bit all mouth and no trousers at the moment.

I get that Sakamoto’s trickery can come across as a bit of a gimmick but I genuinely see a player that gives his all and is always looking for that incisive pass or cross, okay sometimes they don’t come off, and yes he’s not scored or assisted yet, but he’s definitely been one of our best players this season on a per minute basis.

I get that that sounds a bit over the top but we’re looking at a low standard overall here, I don’t think there’s a single player in our squad that has played consistently well so far this season and that’s probably a factor in why we’ve been so poor.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

I didn't realise he was 27.

Hopefully he still has a future though!

 

[SHUNT31]

So then the issue is finding out which stats/metrics they're using, because it must be different to other teams with far larger resources and scouting.

It's all very well saying 'use stats', but you've got to use the right ones. Brentford and Brighton clearly are right now.

Completely agree. Tony Bloom made his fortune using statistics in betting, and has is own company which help with Brighton. As I said, they are ahead of the game. What metrics they use is anyone’s guess and I imagine they’ll be doing everything they can to keep it under wraps.

 

[PVA]

Completely agree. Tony Bloom made his fortune using statistics in betting, and has is own company which help with Brighton. As I said, they are ahead of the game. What metrics they use is anyone’s guess and I imagine they’ll be doing everything they can to keep it under wraps.

It's a fascinating company. I had a telephone interview with them once.

Just looked on their website and for the graduate football analyst role part of the application is you have to rate the squad of Austin FC in the MLS giving each player a rating and explanation for your score!