Nick
Administrator
I'd say knife crime in this country is extreme.
"it will need staffing and people need training" isn't really an excuse either though, is it?
Southport Stabbing (16 Viewers)
- Thread starter Grendel
- Start date
I'd say knife crime in this country is extreme.
"it will need staffing and people need training" isn't really an excuse either though, is it?
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
It’s the fucking answer you dipshit. You can keep going “it’s not an excuse is it?” But when every single person involved in this from prisons to security services to the justice system to the police to social services to schools says it is ill trust them over Ranty McAngry on SBT.
Some of us want to fix this. Some of us clearly just want to rant about immigrants and Ukraine.
Nick
Administrator
It isn't the answer though, is it? "we have no money, can't do it" isn't an answer.
What next, you are going to imagine you're a mind reader and determine how much tax I am willing to pay and for what causes?
"Some of us want to fix this?" Yeah course, while you're acting like his parents had zero clue what was going on.
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
“we have cut far too much and need to restore funding if we want things to work again” isn’t an excuse. It’s reality. Ukraine and immigrants is an excuse because it’s got fuck all to do with anything. These are mostly short term one off costs that come from the aid budget not ongoing costs that we need to pay year on year regardless.
Have you tried to get a kid a CAMHS appointment recently? Have you been through the courts recently? I have. The idea that these services can identify and process troubled kids when they can’t do the basics right now is fairytale stuff.
FFS even the immigrants in hotels thing is entirely because we cut processing to the bone so have to keep them here while we process them. If the systems worked that wouldn’t be an issue.
Marty
Well-Known Member
You do know that Starmer defender a baby murder and help abolish the death penalty in some Caribbean countries. The bloke is a complete scumbag.
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
Or a lawyer as they’re known.
Nick
Administrator
They didn't need to identify anything though, he was already identified. Why do you keep missing this point?
He wasn't some kid who nobody would have ever expected it from (where your point would make sense).
He was openly doing and saying things, carrying knives, telling people he wanted to kill, attacking people. Authorities wouldn't deal with him without police there. He was often carrying knives in public and the police knew all about it.
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
He was referred to Prevent where he was not appropriate. The populist response has been that we should expand the terror definition to include cases like this, the security head says that would be “extremely expensive”.
He was kicked out of school and went to special school. And his dad talked to a taxi driver. He was referred to police by Childline for rhetoric five years ago. Police do not have the resources to follow everything up for years. He’s not committed a crime, the police would refer to social services at worst.
You are making out like he was on some Top Ten Likely Murderers list at the local station and everyone just didn’t bother.
I agree 100% with the counter terrorism chief we known what the inquiry will say because they all say the same thing for the past decade “failings happened because of under resourced and overworked services”
Nick
Administrator
What do you mean he hadn't committed a crime? He had committed multiple crimes.
The death penalty is in place in every Caribbean country except Dominican Republic and Haiti, both of which abolished it decades before Starmer had anything to do with it.
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
When Childline referred him it was because he said he was being racially bullied and was going to take a knife with him. That’s a red flag not a crime.
Nick
Administrator
Cool story, what about his actual crimes? I am sure he had a piss every day as well which isn't a crime either so may as well list that.
As you say later on in the post, you’re talking about thousands and thousands of people. This is on a totally different scale from the rioters.
I tend to think that “We don’t have the space” is a piss-poor excuse for not properly enforcing the law, but let’s not pretend these are equally straightforward problems.
Nick
Administrator
This is why I mentioned something for "first time offenders" which isn't quite going to big boy prison but isn't a holiday to the Bahamas either. ie. some sort of army type thing where they have to do some hard graft, try and sort themselves out, educate them.
If they have done this and offend again, going jail and named and shamed.
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
If you could read properly you’d see that that sentence was referring to the Childline referral.
He was sentenced for the hockey attack and was under supervision for two years. What other crimes are you talking about, here’s the full list of his interactions with the state:
https://www.itv.com/news/2025-01-23/what-was-known-when-by-authorities-about-axel-rudakubana
Nick
Administrator
I can read, I just pointed out that you tried to argue me saying "he had committed crimes" with something that wasn't a crime.
All criminal offences after the Childline call...
He was excluded from school in 2019 for battering somebody with a hockey stick and having a knife in his bag.
He was then found to have a knife on him in 2022 in public. (when he already had a conviction and previous)
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
His dad didnt want to prosecute, so the police wouldn’t act there.
He was prosecuted and sentenced for the hockey attack so that doesn’t count as not being followed up. That actually happened after he was excluded the reason he was excluded was because of him admitting to carrying a knife so that also wasn’t ignored.
At best you’ve got a 13 year old caught with a knife and not immediately arrested but excluded and sent to special school and them finding a knife on him in 2022.
Nick
Administrator
Yeah, they were all crimes he committed.
You're acting like it was some sort of surprise and nobody would have ever guessed it. He didn't fucking need identifying, he was there in broad daylight.
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
Im not sure you understand how many kids this applies to. There’s an estimated 140,000 kids carrying knives. About 12,000 a year permanently excluded (and that usually requires violence). Of those one did this. It’s needle in a haystack.
Look I get the desire to find some obvious easy fix to these sort of crimes but it doesn’t exist and if you want every single teenager who gets into a fight or carries a knife to be monitored 24/7 you’re talking about a huge cost. Ditto if you want them all locked up and the vast majority will just be teenagers being stupid teenagers.
More could definitely be done to follow up on violent kids but it’s not free. He should have had quicker mental health assessments but CAMHS referrals take forever like years to happen. My daughter is on a three year wait list, I’ve known suicidal kids wait their entire secondary school life for a referral.
Nick
Administrator
He had a conviction for violence and carrying a knife
He was kicked out of school for carrying a knife
A couple of years later he is found in public with a knife and the punishment was....Take him home to mum and dad.
Can you not see the issue? I'm not sure why you are trying to make out it's just "boys being boys". I was a stupid c**t as a teenager, so were my mates. None of us carried knives, had a cache of weapons or had a conviction for violence and carrying a knife before we were 16 though.
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
I carried a knife briefly for protection around 12/13, I know others that did.
He was found with a knife after a search because his mum had reported him missing. That’s why he was taken home, because it was a missing persons case.
I don’t know if the knife met the requirements for being illegal on its own. Minimum sentencing only applies over 16 for carrying a knife. AFAICT there’s no sentencing for U16s at all.
Nick
Administrator
Maybe this is why you're acting like this kid was more normal then.
Why is it relevant that his mum reporting him missing but then they found a knife? If they found a gun or some C4 would it be ignored because his mum reported him missing?
He had a history of it.
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
I’ve given you the stats. I’ve worked in shitty schools in shitty areas, I’ve grown up at shitty schools so yeah I have a bit more context than you clearly.
You asked why they took him home, I explained why. Carrying a knife alone under 16 doesn’t usually involve getting prosecuted that’s the law. It involved being referred to a multi agency safeguarding team, which is what happened. Those agencies are under staffed and under funded as I keep repeating. It would involve CAMHS and social services, both of which have multiple year wait lists because of underfunding. We’re going around in circles.
This will end like Baby P, like a million other inquiries: services were stretched and as a result couldn’t act in time or follow up enough, at best there will be a recommendation for mandatory reporting which just increases the workload on already strained services. Locking more people up will do the same. You can open the taps wider all you want but if the pipes they’re feeding into remain at the same capacity all you’re doing is adding more hay and hoping to find more needles.
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Nick
Administrator
Yes and I have shown you that if he has previous and was under 16 he should have been charged. It was fuck all to do with CAHMS, the YCC is for when it happens the first time...
Not sure why you're acting like you grew up in Compton or something though.
Now you know how I vote, what I want to pay taxes for, where I grew up, experiences etc. Such a skill you have.
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
Yes and I have shown you that if he has previous and was under 16 he should have been charged. It was fuck all to do with CAHMS, the YCC is for when it happens the first time...
View attachment 40966
Not sure why you're acting like you grew up in Compton or something though.
Im not acting like anything. Im telling you what I’ve seen with my own eyes. You said you haven’t seen it. There’s nothing more than that.
I’m going off the sentencing council website. If you’ve got more the great share it. I’m not sure what that PowerPoint refers to. But I’m telling you from experience of working with and working through these agencies what the people in them say is the issue. And what the multi year inquiries before recommended.
You want to find a single policeman or social worker who didn’t do their job and sack them and then all youth crime will be prevented it seems. The world doesn’t work like that.
Nick
Administrator
I said I had never carried a knife, and neither had my mates... Let's not get into making shit up again.
As I said, he should have been charged the second time but wasn't. You can go on about agencies like CAHMS all you want, but at that point, it had escalated way above them.
No, ideally, people do their jobs properly. People bringing their kids up properly would be a help, too.
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
Who is making things up? Ironically you keep making things up I’ve said like I grew up in Compton. Or that he wasn’t prosecuted for things he was prosecuted for. Or that it was a terror attack. Or that we send billions in cash to Ukraine. The irony. All you’ve got is a laughing emoji and a claim people are making things up and not a solid argument despite reams of text.
You’ve not provided a source for your image and I can’t find it with tineye so I’m going from what I can see on various government websites until proven otherwise.
You’re desperate to find some person who has fucked up so you can say it was all their fault and not the fault of people with politics like yours who go on about public sector workers being lazy and how if we just treated a few more foreigners and public sector workers like shit everything would be OK.
You won’t even entertain the answers that every single expert in the field is giving you because it doesn’t fit with your priors.
It’s all so fucking transparent and frankly boring. If you don’t care then stop posting, if you do then have a normal conversation and stop looking for gotchas.
Sky Blue Pete
Well-Known Member
It’s a good question and I suppose the answer is clearly not otherwise we would have prioritised the taxation and spending accordingly
So where I’m with you is don’t just sort out buying knives off Amazon come to the country with a considered holistic set of recommendations for practically and proactively dealing with the epedemic of knife crime of which this case is the tip of a too large iceberg
Nick
Administrator
I clearly wasn't being serious about you growing up in Compton. That's why I said you are acting like it.
Maybe you can look properly for the source of my image and then rule it out. I didn't just make it myself. It clearly states if it's not a first offence then to charge him (let's not forget you didn't seem to think he had committed any crime at all)
Wait so now it's my fault because of my politics (which again, you have no fucking clue about or what tax I'd pay) and not the people who fucked up and caused it to happen.
I'm sure people who buy drugs are more to blame for knife crime though if you want to get into that one?
I don't need to be desperate to find people who have fucked up, they clearly have.
Sky Blue Pete
Well-Known Member
Worse than extremely expensive he said it would make it less likely they could manage the known terrorist risk
Sky Blue Pete
Well-Known Member
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
I clearly wasn't being serious about you growing up in Compton. That's why I said you are acting like it.
Maybe you can look properly for the source of my image and then rule it out. I didn't just make it myself. It clearly states if it's not a first offence then to charge him (let's not forget you didn't seem to think he had committed any crime at all)
Wait so now it's my fault because of my politics (which again, you have no fucking clue about or what tax I'd pay) and not the people who fucked up and caused it to happen.
I'm sure people who buy drugs are more to blame for knife crime though if you want to get into that one?
I don't need to be desperate to find people who have fucked up, they clearly have.
Who fucked up?
You’ve done your usual thing of spouting a load of nonsense which is immediately disproven but you keep on believing it. I’m not sure how to find a generic PowerPoint screenshot other than reverse image search. I’m also not sure why you keep refusing to just share your source. It’s shit like this that makes me think you’re not talking in good faith.
I’ll share my sources, now you show me yours:
Sentencing council guidelines:
Sentencing Children and Young People – Sentencing
www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk
Gov document on history of sentencing for knife crime:
I’m perfectly willing to accept I’ve missed something but “haha I’ve got a secret source and I won’t share it” isn’t cutting it I’m afraid.
Sky Blue Pete
Well-Known Member
It definitely needs a knife task force doesn’t it
This has to be a marker in the sand like dunblane was
It’s why the immigration and Islam arguments aren’t helpful
They are for other conversations but not for this
Cooper needs to step up and be counted it’s an opportunity to do something to be proud of
This has to be a marker in the sand like dunblane was
It’s why the immigration and Islam arguments aren’t helpful
They are for other conversations but not for this
Cooper needs to step up and be counted it’s an opportunity to do something to be proud of
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
I don’t think scotlands approach that basically got rid of knife crime can be 100% followed but the basics could be. Again it’s funding people to go out and talk to these kids and help them into other areas.