Southport Stabbing (12 Viewers)

[MalcSB]

No punishment deters, that’s not the reason we punish. You have prison sentences mainly to remove them from the streets so they can’t reoffend. We don’t kill or torture people for moral reasons.

You stop crimes with all the boring preventative work not ever increasing punishments.

Then they reoffend on their release. Ultimately not very effective,

 

---

[shmmeee]

Then they reoffend on their release. Ultimately not very effective,

Do they? I’m not sure what the data says. Pete probably is.

 

[shmmeee]

It sounds as if the boring preventative work wasn’t applied here. He was a known danger and fuck all was done to stop him. That had a huge bearing on the extreme reaction on social media.

No that was mostly racism let’s be honest. People thought he was an illegal immigrant a Muslim and known to MI5, none of that was true.

Just because someone had a report doesn’t mean they’re a “known danger” we don’t have the resources to follow tens of thousands of kids around. He wasn’t a terrorist he was just a violent boy and there are loads of those.

I get the desire to wish these things were easily fixable and someone must have dropped the ball to let this happen but the reality is bad things happen and this kind of radicalisation is very hard to prevent.

I don’t think the people calling for all this actually want what’s being called for either from a cost or civil liberties POV. It would likely mean huge crackdowns on freedom of speech online, massive tax rises to fund security services and public services like social care and youth schemes, and far more people that are just angry young white men getting arrested and monitored.

The same people want low tax and to be allowed to say anything online without reprise. It’s completely incoherent. Which is fine anger makes you incoherent, but don’t be surprised when it’s not a basis for policy making.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Pete I am sure that if you and everyone on here were in their position you would have acted differently. I certainly wouldn't have allowed my kids to have any weapon of any sort in the house.
The fact that he did the same thing the week before and his dad didn't take it further means that he is every bit as culpable in my eyes and that before you consider the Machete, arrows etc he had allowed him to have.

Differently but probably wouldn’t have changed the outcome of the lad was going to do it he was going to do it

 

[shmmeee]

Slightly related has anyone else read We Need To Talk About Kevin?

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Do they? I’m not sure what the data says. Pete probably is.

Far far too many
But then prison is a holding bay rather than a meaningful opportunity to do anything with one’s life

 

[Grendel]

No that was mostly racism let’s be honest. People thought he was an illegal immigrant a Muslim and known to MI5, none of that was true.

Just because someone had a report doesn’t mean they’re a “known danger” we don’t have the resources to follow tens of thousands of kids around. He wasn’t a terrorist he was just a violent boy and there are loads of those.

I get the desire to wish these things were easily fixable and someone must have dropped the ball to let this happen but the reality is bad things happen and this kind of radicalisation is very hard to prevent.

I don’t think the people calling for all this actually want what’s being called for either from a cost or civil liberties POV. It would likely mean huge crackdowns on freedom of speech online, massive tax rises to fund security services and public services like social care and youth schemes, and far more people that are just angry young white men getting arrested and monitored.

The same people want low tax and to be allowed to say anything online without reprise. It’s completely incoherent. Which is fine anger makes you incoherent, but don’t be surprised when it’s not a basis for policy making.

Most "just violent boys" don't make a poison in their house which is associated with chemical warfare

 

[shmmeee]

Far far too many
But then prison is a holding bay rather than a meaningful opportunity to do anything with one’s life

Above 50% would you say?

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Slightly related has anyone else read We Need To Talk About Kevin?

Not heard of it before

 

[shmmeee]

Not heard of it before

It’s fiction, there’s a film I’ve not seen too, about a boy who grows up to do a school massacre written from the perspective of his Mum. Really interesting take on having a psychopath for a child and what parents go through.

We Need to Talk About Kevin - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Above 50% would you say?

Depends what the crime is
If someone is not released they won’t reoffend which seems obvious but it’s not too understood I don’t think
It feels on here and on my Facebook and x feeds that most think any violent crime should mean someone is locked up for life and any murder or killing of another person seemingly even by accident and especially if first second or maybe even third generation immigrant, especially if non white should get the death penalty

 

[Grendel]

Not heard of it before

Its hardly supporting the argument - the father indulged the sociopath and he ended up a mass murderer refusing to acknowledge the mothers concerns

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Its hardly supporting the argument - the father indulged the sociopath and he ended up a mass murderer refusing to acknowledge the mothers concerns

It’s supposed to be adding knowledge to our discussions for anyone willing to think outside of their own experiences or prejudices

I’m pretty sure shmmee isn’t saying ha ha there you go told you I was right

Not on this at least lol

 

[shmmeee]

Depends what the crime is
If someone is not released they won’t reoffend which seems obvious but it’s not too understood I don’t think
It feels on here and on my Facebook and x feeds that most think any violent crime should mean someone is locked up for life and any murder or killing of another person seemingly even by accident and especially if first second or maybe even third generation immigrant, especially if non white should get the death penalty

Just reading this.
Proven reoffending statistics: January to March 2022

Theft seems a real outlier. Longer sentences seem to reduce reoffending, I wonder if that’s just an age thing as most crime happens before 30 IIRC.

 

[Nick]

#prayforaxelsparents

Not sure the shrugging of the shoulders and the "Oh it would cost billions to fix issues like this" works as an excuse.

He had literally taken knives to school, openly said over and over he wanted to kill mass people, been caught with knives multiple times by the police, downloaded terror handbooks, made ricin, had a cache of weapons in his house.

There is zero excuse. "budget cuts, social services workload, police cuts, just an angry teenage boy etc etc". It's bollocks.

 

[shmmeee]

#prayforaxelsparents

Not sure the shrugging of the shoulders and the "Oh it would cost billions to fix issues like this" works as an excuse.

I’m not sure demanding anyone and everyone is put to death every time works either.

Everyone involved in this says services have been cut to the bone and any fixes will cost money. There’s no getting around that. You can’t spend 90% of your time demanding the government spends less and voting accordingly then complain that the services didn’t stop bad things.

You get what you pay for ultimately.

 

[PVA]

I’m not sure demanding anyone and everyone is put to death every time works either.

Everyone involved in this says services have been cut to the bone and any fixes will cost money. There’s no getting around that. You can’t spend 90% of your time demanding the government spends less and voting accordingly then complain that the services didn’t stop bad things.

You get what you pay for ultimately.

The only thing the British public hate more than broken services is paying to fix them.

 

[SIR ERNIE]

If ever there was a case for giving the little girls parents a couple of hours in a locked room with the scumbag, this is it.

 

[Nick]

I’m not sure demanding anyone and everyone is put to death every time works either.

Everyone involved in this says services have been cut to the bone and any fixes will cost money. There’s no getting around that. You can’t spend 90% of your time demanding the government spends less and voting accordingly then complain that the services didn’t stop bad things.

You get what you pay for ultimately.

Demanding somebody is put to death for planning a mass attack of 7 year old girls and then being happy about it after?

It isn't like he flew under the radar, I would get it if it was one of the "nobody would have ever expected it" but he was a ticking time bomb and multiple authorities knew all about him.

The justice system seemed to kick into overdrive when it wanted to find people posting shit on social media, how about firing that up for people like this every once in a while? Maybe get Starmer telling people who carry knives that they will be found, they will be stopped and then have their front doors kicked in at 5am.

Can't keep whinging "there's no money so we can't do anything" but then send over £10b to Ukraine while we can't do the basics here.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

I’m not sure demanding anyone and everyone is put to death every time works either.

Everyone involved in this says services have been cut to the bone and any fixes will cost money. There’s no getting around that. You can’t spend 90% of your time demanding the government spends less and voting accordingly then complain that the services didn’t stop bad things.

You get what you pay for ultimately.

I want him put to death because what he did was so brutal and the victims so young. It’s vengeance I will freely admit

 

[shmmeee]

Demanding somebody is put to death for planning a mass attack of 7 year old girls and then being happy about it after?

It isn't like he flew under the radar, I would get it if it was one of the "nobody would have ever expected it" but he was a ticking time bomb and multiple authorities knew all about him.

The justice system seemed to kick into overdrive when it wanted to find people posting shit on social media, how about firing that up for people like this every once in a while? Maybe get Starmer telling people who carry knives that they will be found, they will be stopped and then have their front doors kicked in at 5am.

Can't keep whinging "there's no money so we can't do anything" but then send over £10b to Ukraine while we can't do the basics here.

And his parents. And Keir Starmer. And whoever else. It’s just undirected anger. As I said understandable but not particularly useful in stopping it happening again.

 

[shmmeee]

Demanding somebody is put to death for planning a mass attack of 7 year old girls and then being happy about it after?

It isn't like he flew under the radar, I would get it if it was one of the "nobody would have ever expected it" but he was a ticking time bomb and multiple authorities knew all about him.

The justice system seemed to kick into overdrive when it wanted to find people posting shit on social media, how about firing that up for people like this every once in a while? Maybe get Starmer telling people who carry knives that they will be found, they will be stopped and then have their front doors kicked in at 5am.

Can't keep whinging "there's no money so we can't do anything" but then send over £10b to Ukraine while we can't do the basics here.

And still you won’t accept it. “Oh Ukraine”. I’m not sure handing social workers out of date missiles is going to help but maybe.

 

[Nick]

And his parents. And Keir Starmer. And whoever else. It’s just undirected anger. As I said understandable but not particularly useful in stopping it happening again.

I mean, Starmer is the Prime Minister. He could go on TV today and say look, any c**t with a knife you are getting dealt with. Anybody with a cache of weapons at their house and terror material, you are getting dealt with as well.

The police had dealt with him multiple times for carrying a knife, one of the times it was when he had gone into a school and battered somebody with a hockey stick (while he had a knife in his bag) but the c**t was still allowed to roam free.

 

[Nick]

And still you won’t accept it. “Oh Ukraine”. I’m not sure handing social workers out of date missiles is going to help but maybe.

"social workers caseload". Another shit excuse.

Maybe it could use the the billions in cash they are getting to get more social workers?

 

[shmmeee]

I mean, Starmer is the Prime Minister. He could go on TV today and say look, any c**t with a knife you are getting dealt with. Anybody with a cache of weapons at their house and terror material, you are getting dealt with as well.

The police had dealt with him multiple times for carrying a knife, one of the times it was when he had gone into a school and battered somebody with a hockey stick (while he had a knife in his bag) but the c**t was still allowed to roam free.

OK let’s walk through this. Let’s say we want to deal with any c**t with a knife.

We will start at the end. We need somewhere to put them. The previous govenrment spent 14 years avoiding building prisons cos they cost money and we should have low taxes above all else. So we can’t put them anywhere for a couple of years while we wait for that.

Before that they need to be tried, court backlogs are at record highs because again the government you support cut funding to both people working in the system and to repairing the buildings meaning again there’s no capacity to do that. Stopping an ongoing riot worked short term and was expensive and required letting other people out of prison to put these in. It’s not appropriate for a long term ongoing issue.

Before we try then we need to catch them, police have had funding cut and are stretched.

Before the police get there we need to identify them, social programs and schools have had funding cut.

You want there to be some magic bullet that stops this and costs you nothing and doesn’t link back to your voting choices the last two decades but it doesn’t exist. You determined that low taxes trump all, now live with it.

 

[shmmeee]

"social workers caseload". Another shit excuse.

Maybe it could use the the billions in cash they are getting to get more social workers?

Ita not an excuse it’s reality. Everyone with any working knowledge of the system is telling you this but you ignore them and believe some random Twitter account telling you it’s the foreigners instead. If you ever want to live in reality there’s thousands of reports on this stuff.

£228m last year to Ukraine BTW, so not billions, you can’t even get that right.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

When

#prayforaxelsparents

Not sure the shrugging of the shoulders and the "Oh it would cost billions to fix issues like this" works as an excuse.

He had literally taken knives to school, openly said over and over he wanted to kill mass people, been caught with knives multiple times by the police, downloaded terror handbooks, made ricin, had a cache of weapons in his house.

There is zero excuse. "budget cuts, social services workload, police cuts, just an angry teenage boy etc etc". It's bollocks.

When you say zero excuse what do you mean? Zero excuse for the person doing it? For his parents? His teachers? His church? His community? Prevent? Police? Security services?
who?

 

[Nick]

OK let’s walk through this. Let’s say we want to deal with any c**t with a knife.

We will start at the end. We need somewhere to put them. The previous govenrment spent 14 years avoiding building prisons cos they cost money and we should have low taxes above all else. So we can’t put them anywhere for a couple of years while we wait for that.

Before that they need to be tried, court backlogs are at record highs because again the government you support cut funding to both people working in the system and to repairing the buildings meaning again there’s no capacity to do that. Stopping an ongoing riot worked short term and was expensive and required letting other people out of prison to put these in. It’s not appropriate for a long term ongoing issue.

Before we try then we need to catch them, police have had funding cut and are stretched.

Before the police get there we need to identify them, social programs and schools have had funding cut.

You want there to be some magic bullet that stops this and costs you nothing and doesn’t link back to your voting choices the last two decades but it doesn’t exist. You determined that low taxes trump all, now live with it.

Like I said, things can be ramped up when they want them to and they can have people in court, sentenced and locked up within the week. We have already seen that it can be done.

Put it into perspective, this c**t was known, he had been caught and convicted of violence. He had been caught with knives multiple times and had been identified. It didn't need more investigation or extra police officers as he was already known.

Knife crime is an epidemic, why not convert some secure camps that are sat about doing fuck all and get them all in there. For the less serious crime (just carrying one) then get them locked up in an old army camp for a bit with some hard graft.

How many thousands of people are there up and down the country at the minute who have been caught multiple times with knives, violence etc but are still roaming about without being punished?

Sorry, the "there's no money" shit is nonsense when it comes to something as serious as this. Especially when the govt can pull money out to send abroad or to pay for hotels.

You have fuck all clue about my voting choices or what my taxes determined, Why are you making things up again?

 

[Nick]

Ita not an excuse it’s reality. Everyone with any working knowledge of the system is telling you this but you ignore them and believe some random Twitter account telling you it’s the foreigners instead. If you ever want to live in reality there’s thousands of reports on this stuff.

£228m last year to Ukraine BTW, so not billions, you can’t even get that right.

Where did I say it was billions in a year to Ukraine? I didn't, I said sending them Billions. (I didn't put a time frame on it)

Nice try though.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Demanding somebody is put to death for planning a mass attack of 7 year old girls and then being happy about it after?

It isn't like he flew under the radar, I would get it if it was one of the "nobody would have ever expected it" but he was a ticking time bomb and multiple authorities knew all about him.

The justice system seemed to kick into overdrive when it wanted to find people posting shit on social media, how about firing that up for people like this every once in a while? Maybe get Starmer telling people who carry knives that they will be found, they will be stopped and then have their front doors kicked in at 5am.

Can't keep whinging "there's no money so we can't do anything" but then send over £10b to Ukraine while we can't do the basics here.

Not really related to the thread but I’m desperate for someone in government to talk about non discretionary spending and discretionary
And not to overplay household budget analogy it’s our fixed items and our non fixed items

I think ukraine and asylum are non discretionary items

 

[shmmeee]

Like I said, things can be ramped up when they want them to and they can have people in court, sentenced and locked up within the week. We have already seen that it can be done.

Put it into perspective, this c**t was known, he had been caught and convicted of violence. He had been caught with knives multiple times and had been identified. It didn't need more investigation or extra police officers as he was already known.

Knife crime is an epidemic, why not convert some secure camps that are sat about doing fuck all and get them all in there. For the less serious crime (just carrying one) then get them locked up in an old army camp for a bit with some hard graft.

How many thousands of people are there up and down the country at the minute who have been caught multiple times with knives, violence etc but are still roaming about without being punished?

Sorry, the "there's no money" shit is nonsense when it comes to something as serious as this. Especially when the govt can pull money out to send abroad or to pay for hotels.

You have fuck all clue about my voting choices or what my taxes determined, Why are you making things up again?

Because you’re on here every time anyone suggests returning spending to normal levels ranting about why can’t we stop helping foreigners instead. It doesn’t take a mind reader.

Things weren’t “ramped up when they want” just like in 2011 it was determined that the best way to stop ongoing riots costing tens of millions in damages was for people to work through the night at great cost. We don’t have a large number of people waiting to be processed to stop an ongoing civil disorder. It’s like asking why we can go into debt for war and Covid but not to give everyone a free bus pass. Extreme events are extreme.

I’ve no idea what secure camps you’re on about but whatever it is will need staffing and people will need training and the courts will still need to perform justice. There’s really no way around this.

 

[Nick]

I think ukraine and asylum are non discretionary items

Yeah but locking up people who openly say they want to kill, get caught with knives multiple times, go into a school to attack a pupil and then go on to kill innocent kids isn't?

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

OK let’s walk through this. Let’s say we want to deal with any c**t with a knife.

We will start at the end. We need somewhere to put them. The previous govenrment spent 14 years avoiding building prisons cos they cost money and we should have low taxes above all else. So we can’t put them anywhere for a couple of years while we wait for that.

Before that they need to be tried, court backlogs are at record highs because again the government you support cut funding to both people working in the system and to repairing the buildings meaning again there’s no capacity to do that. Stopping an ongoing riot worked short term and was expensive and required letting other people out of prison to put these in. It’s not appropriate for a long term ongoing issue.

Before we try then we need to catch them, police have had funding cut and are stretched.

Before the police get there we need to identify them, social programs and schools have had funding cut.

You want there to be some magic bullet that stops this and costs you nothing and doesn’t link back to your voting choices the last two decades but it doesn’t exist. You determined that low taxes trump all, now live with it.

Worse we will vote in reform who will magnify the cuts big time

 

[PVA]

What is a 'secure camp' (other than a GB news soundbite)?

 

[shmmeee]

Where did I say it was billions in a year to Ukraine? I didn't, I said sending them Billions. (I didn't put a time frame on it)

Nice try though.

It was 31m in 2021. This stuff is readily available online.

UK aid to Ukraine - ICAI

icai.independent.gov.uk