clint van damme
Well-Known Member
But he'll be out clapping next Thursday so it's ok.
Coronavirus Thread (Off Topic, Politics) (13 Viewers)
- Thread starter BackRoomRummermill
- Start date
But he'll be out clapping next Thursday so it's ok.
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
Read the comments. Some people still buying into the it’s fake news line even though it turned out that the actual fake news was that it was ever fake news.
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
Not sure how they’ll ever know given NHS staff are still not being tested regularly. Nurse 'killed by coronavirus' had not been tested for Covid-19 despite symptoms
Either way it’s still no excuse for failing them with PPE.
What a prick. Absolutely shameless.
Not that we're allowed to criticise the government though, we'll be accused of point scoring soon.
Otis
Well-Known Member
I don't get it.
I would describe myself as a socialist, but that wouldn't stop me criticising Jeremy Corbyn, or Kier Starmer, or whoever.
I think you can be a Conservative, but not rate the current government's stance and action on things and it is fine to not like Boris too.
If this was Labour and they too had fooked up, I would be first in line to criticise them too.
I would describe myself as a socialist, but that wouldn't stop me criticising Jeremy Corbyn, or Kier Starmer, or whoever.
I think you can be a Conservative, but not rate the current government's stance and action on things and it is fine to not like Boris too.
If this was Labour and they too had fooked up, I would be first in line to criticise them too.
Right, I’m going to put this out there as an alternative view, awaiting to be abused but here it goes and please hear me out.....
Firstly, do I think Hancock is out of his depth, yes, most probably (for all his historical issues with the NHS Hunt would’ve no doubt been far better in these circumstances but that’s currently irrelevant)
Do I think his comment about misuse of PPE was as callous as it’s been made out to be, no. In actual fact it’s a valid point. In the briefing he was asking people to follow the PPE guidelines ie make sure you are wearing enough/adequate PPE but also not to overuse it
Now if there was an infinite supply (and no global pandemic) this would just be a ridiculous thing to say (what’s a few quid to protect a life etc etc). However as we know there is a potential shortage and this situation may well get worse nationally and globally before it gets better. as I think SBD and others have highlighted countries have also banned exports and we don’t currently make much of our own. It was mentioned yesterday 700m pieces of PPF had been distributed to NHS/social care etc since the start of the outbreak and one of the comments was that a doctor/nurse can apparently safely wear some of the same PPE for a session rather than change per patient (which will no doubt come with its own risks, take additional time etc). Let’s assume for example it’s three patients per session, over a month that could be a difference of hundreds of millions of pieces of PPE, some of which could be in short supply or difficult to replace in future.
Ive said before that for me PPE distribution (and supply line) and testing of NHS workers are the two genuine issues I would want/expect to be addressed asap and fully investigated once this nightmare is over. I’m sure the last thing health workers want to hear when they are risking their lives is ‘be careful not to overuse PPE’ but if by using PPE safely and sensibly, as per guidelines it means there is more to go around and in turn save their or colleagues life in future, it’s maybe not such an outrageous thing to say.
*Prepares tin hat but hopefully people get the point being made. As I say this isn’t about preparedness etc this is about what was discussed at the briefing
Firstly, do I think Hancock is out of his depth, yes, most probably (for all his historical issues with the NHS Hunt would’ve no doubt been far better in these circumstances but that’s currently irrelevant)
Do I think his comment about misuse of PPE was as callous as it’s been made out to be, no. In actual fact it’s a valid point. In the briefing he was asking people to follow the PPE guidelines ie make sure you are wearing enough/adequate PPE but also not to overuse it
Now if there was an infinite supply (and no global pandemic) this would just be a ridiculous thing to say (what’s a few quid to protect a life etc etc). However as we know there is a potential shortage and this situation may well get worse nationally and globally before it gets better. as I think SBD and others have highlighted countries have also banned exports and we don’t currently make much of our own. It was mentioned yesterday 700m pieces of PPF had been distributed to NHS/social care etc since the start of the outbreak and one of the comments was that a doctor/nurse can apparently safely wear some of the same PPE for a session rather than change per patient (which will no doubt come with its own risks, take additional time etc). Let’s assume for example it’s three patients per session, over a month that could be a difference of hundreds of millions of pieces of PPE, some of which could be in short supply or difficult to replace in future.
Ive said before that for me PPE distribution (and supply line) and testing of NHS workers are the two genuine issues I would want/expect to be addressed asap and fully investigated once this nightmare is over. I’m sure the last thing health workers want to hear when they are risking their lives is ‘be careful not to overuse PPE’ but if by using PPE safely and sensibly, as per guidelines it means there is more to go around and in turn save their or colleagues life in future, it’s maybe not such an outrageous thing to say.
*Prepares tin hat but hopefully people get the point being made. As I say this isn’t about preparedness etc this is about what was discussed at the briefing
Ring Of Steel
Well-Known Member
no issue from me, pal, all well put
Ian1779
Well-Known Member
Or try and make a financial gain from a scenario. His mentality is that as the US is getting a bad deal from this situation, therefore Coronavirus is getting a good one.
fernandopartridge
Well-Known Member
Steve the 740m pieces of PPE is a useless figure out of context tbf. For reference the NHS uses on an average year over 1bn pairs of surgical gloves
Ian1779
Well-Known Member
Maybe ‘decent’ conservatives have been subsumed by the cult of Brexit.
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
Putting it into context makes it sound even worse.
Otis
Well-Known Member
Misread that for a second. Cult. Right.
You'd think so, but it seems to be different for them.
Corbyn is/was a total clown, and there are many clowns (and worse) in the party. As someone who voted Labour in the last election I'm more than happy to admit that.
Yet Tory voters will defend them to the hilt, no matter what. Even if their actions are affecting or, worse, costing lives. Even if they've done/said something which they had previously pulled up a Labour MP for.
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
It’s gone from a “broad church” to a narrow minded church.
My point was is it’s in short supply (or could be) and something can help free up significant numbers then it’s worth considering
Ps as I’m boring I’d actually noted the figure for gloves yesterday, I think it was 345m distributed since the start of the outbreak. As I say that wasn’t so much the point as the message
Otis
Well-Known Member
There was talk again this morning about Sweden and whether their stance has been successful.
Well....
' Throughout the pandemic, Sweden's response to the coronavirus has been an odd one out. Unlike most of Europe, it did not introduce a lockdown - cafes and restaurants remain open, and schools have not closed. Although the government advised against non-essential travel, it has largely been business as usual, albeit a bit quieter.
Now Prime Minister Stefan Löfven has has admitted that Sweden was not properly prepared for the pandemic and that it is "obvious that country has not done enough". Restaurants not observing social distancing should be shut, he told Swedish broadcaster SVT.
In Sweden, 870 people have died from the virus - many more than neighbours Denmark (247) and Norway (113), where lockdowns were introduced in early March.'
There's the answer I think. 'Not properly prepared.'
Well....
' Throughout the pandemic, Sweden's response to the coronavirus has been an odd one out. Unlike most of Europe, it did not introduce a lockdown - cafes and restaurants remain open, and schools have not closed. Although the government advised against non-essential travel, it has largely been business as usual, albeit a bit quieter.
Now Prime Minister Stefan Löfven has has admitted that Sweden was not properly prepared for the pandemic and that it is "obvious that country has not done enough". Restaurants not observing social distancing should be shut, he told Swedish broadcaster SVT.
In Sweden, 870 people have died from the virus - many more than neighbours Denmark (247) and Norway (113), where lockdowns were introduced in early March.'
There's the answer I think. 'Not properly prepared.'
Yes (as long as it’s not run out obviously !!!) I think one of the points being made yesterday was that PPE was potentially being changed per patient.
only picking up why was said, I don’t know the safety aspects (risks) etc
Ian1779
Well-Known Member
Im sorry but he wasn’t a clown. You only have to look at the ideas in the 2017 and 2019 manifesto to know that he had a pretty decent idea of how a fairer society would work. Look at what has been implemented since this crisis has begun, and I bet we’d have been better prepared if Labour had won in 2017.
Naive? Made big mistakes? Too much baggage? Didn’t fight fire with fire? All legitimate criticisms and ultimately succumbed because he allowed a narrative of him to explode exponentially and it couldn’t be undone. Needed better people around him to challenge directly. Nicer way of doing this is very noble but no one else was playing that game.
But not a clown.
fernandopartridge
Well-Known Member
Anyway the publicising of grandiose figures is this gov all over. Fuck the numbers just confirm that each Trust has adequate PPE to protect staff and patients from harm.
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
Its the tone of it Steve. “Don’t blame us, blame the profligate nurses” when were seeing staff in homemade bin bag suits. In sure a bunch of trained medical professionals know not to waste PPE in a pandemic. It also speaks to a fundamental issue with the way many conservatives fail to understand public service ethos and view it all as “wasteful”, when ever public servant I’ve known has usually supplemented their own equipment out of their own pocket if anything.
Right now, frankly even if the nurses are making PPE kites on their lunch break, you take it on the chin. The buck stops with you, you protect those on the front line because that’s your job. This government have been cowardly throughout, fearful of making tough decisions lest they be blamed for the consequences, scared to face scrutiny placing public workers and civil servants as human shields during press conferences.
It’s just a continuation of a way of acting in government since the start of the Brexit campaign proper and its wholly unsuitable for a national crisis.
fernandopartridge
Well-Known Member
They'd change gloves and apron from patient to patient where this is any contact
Maybe clown wasn't the right word and I do agree with your points. His ideas were good but just think the execution was pretty terrible and the (lack of) Brexit stance was all over the place.
I have much more confidence in Starmer than I did Corbyn. I'm looking forward to him taking Johnson apart at PMQs, with his background he'll pick him apart with ease.
SkyBlueCRJ
Well-Known Member
I do find it odd why he reacted as he did to that as he just ended up making a mountain out of a molehill by losing his nerve and letting a journalist rattle him. What I don’t understand is, is why didn’t he just look at the picture and follow up with a scripted comment along the lines of: “this is awful, my heart goes out to the boy and his parents, and cases like this are why we want to appropriately fund the NHS and stop the cuts.” Surprising given his background in the media but he doesn’t seem to grasp the basics of crisis management - which he also would’ve almost certainly been trained in by his PR team.
I can’t disagree with a lot of what you say mate and the way it’s been taken (even if not meant) reflects poorly on Hancock. The underlying message is still correct under the circumstances though
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
So the suggestion then is that changing PPE between patients is a mistake. Question, how do you know which patients have it and who doesn’t when A) we aren’t testing enough people and B) the results aren’t instantaneous? Surely the one thing we’ve learned is you eliminate the risk of spreading infection, hence the lockdown. How is not changing potentially contaminated PPE between patients anything other than best practice in the effort to contain the virus? Seems to me that changing PPE should be the standard not a criticism.
Astute
Well-Known Member
But they are arguing about fresh PPE after dealing with each patient. This would mean your girlfriend isn't getting anywhere near as much as she should.
Nick
Administrator
You won't get Facebook likes for that.
SkyBlueDom26
Well-Known Member
Spain going to start reopening
clint van damme
Well-Known Member
I read about a doctor today whose department are reusing PPE on several occasions when on average each person treating a patient would need on average 4 sets of PPE to treat that patient during the duration of their stay (Think the article was in the FT).
Given that situation I have every faith in the staff of the NHS to utilise the equipment they have to the max and I don't believe they need advice or underhand insults from a cretin like Hancock.
Just to be clear, I’m commenting on what was mentioned at the briefing not the science behind it (I’ve got no idea, like everyone else on here). Also I presume they are talking about changes between those patients already diagnosed with coronavirus. I’d imagine the whole units (docs, nurses etc) will only dealing with Coronavirus patients not mixing with non coronavirus patients