Coronavirus Thread (Off Topic, Politics) (139 Viewers)

[fernandopartridge]

My point was is it’s in short supply (or could be) and something can help free up significant numbers then it’s worth considering

Ps as I’m boring I’d actually noted the figure for gloves yesterday, I think it was 345m distributed since the start of the outbreak. As I say that wasn’t so much the point as the message

Anyway the publicising of grandiose figures is this gov all over. Fuck the numbers just confirm that each Trust has adequate PPE to protect staff and patients from harm.

 

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[shmmeee]

Right, I’m going to put this out there as an alternative view, awaiting to be abused but here it goes and please hear me out.....

Firstly, do I think Hancock is out of his depth, yes, most probably (for all his historical issues with the NHS Hunt would’ve no doubt been far better in these circumstances but that’s currently irrelevant)

Do I think his comment about misuse of PPE was as callous as it’s been made out to be, no. In actual fact it’s a valid point. In the briefing he was asking people to follow the PPE guidelines ie make sure you are wearing enough/adequate PPE but also not to overuse it

Now if there was an infinite supply (and no global pandemic) this would just be a ridiculous thing to say (what’s a few quid to protect a life etc etc). However as we know there is a potential shortage and this situation may well get worse nationally and globally before it gets better. as I think SBD and others have highlighted countries have also banned exports and we don’t currently make much of our own. It was mentioned yesterday 700m pieces of PPF had been distributed to NHS/social care etc since the start of the outbreak and one of the comments was that a doctor/nurse can apparently safely wear some of the same PPE for a session rather than change per patient (which will no doubt come with its own risks, take additional time etc). Let’s assume for example it’s three patients per session, over a month that could be a difference of hundreds of millions of pieces of PPE, some of which could be in short supply or difficult to replace in future.

Ive said before that for me PPE distribution (and supply line) and testing of NHS workers are the two genuine issues I would want/expect to be addressed asap and fully investigated once this nightmare is over. I’m sure the last thing health workers want to hear when they are risking their lives is ‘be careful not to overuse PPE’ but if by using PPE safely and sensibly, as per guidelines it means there is more to go around and in turn save their or colleagues life in future, it’s maybe not such an outrageous thing to say.

*Prepares tin hat but hopefully people get the point being made. As I say this isn’t about preparedness etc this is about what was discussed at the briefing

Its the tone of it Steve. “Don’t blame us, blame the profligate nurses” when were seeing staff in homemade bin bag suits. In sure a bunch of trained medical professionals know not to waste PPE in a pandemic. It also speaks to a fundamental issue with the way many conservatives fail to understand public service ethos and view it all as “wasteful”, when ever public servant I’ve known has usually supplemented their own equipment out of their own pocket if anything.

Right now, frankly even if the nurses are making PPE kites on their lunch break, you take it on the chin. The buck stops with you, you protect those on the front line because that’s your job. This government have been cowardly throughout, fearful of making tough decisions lest they be blamed for the consequences, scared to face scrutiny placing public workers and civil servants as human shields during press conferences.

It’s just a continuation of a way of acting in government since the start of the Brexit campaign proper and its wholly unsuitable for a national crisis.

 

[fernandopartridge]

Yes (as long as it’s not run out obviously !!!) I think one of the points being made yesterday was that PPE was potentially being changed per patient.

only picking up why was said, I don’t know the safety aspects (risks) etc

They'd change gloves and apron from patient to patient where this is any contact

 

[PVA]

Im sorry but he wasn’t a clown. You only have to look at the ideas in the 2017 and 2019 manifesto to know that he had a pretty decent idea of how a fairer society would work. Look at what has been implemented since this crisis has begun, and I bet we’d have been better prepared if Labour had won in 2017.

Naive? Made big mistakes? Too much baggage? Didn’t fight fire with fire? All legitimate criticisms and ultimately succumbed because he allowed a narrative of him to explode exponentially and it couldn’t be undone. Needed better people around him to challenge directly. Nicer way of doing this is very noble but no one else was playing that game.

But not a clown.

Maybe clown wasn't the right word and I do agree with your points. His ideas were good but just think the execution was pretty terrible and the (lack of) Brexit stance was all over the place.

I have much more confidence in Starmer than I did Corbyn. I'm looking forward to him taking Johnson apart at PMQs, with his background he'll pick him apart with ease.

 

[SkyBlueCRJ]

A lot has gone on and many things have happened which have changed some perceptions, but nobody should lose sight of the reality of who our leader really is.

I do find it odd why he reacted as he did to that as he just ended up making a mountain out of a molehill by losing his nerve and letting a journalist rattle him. What I don’t understand is, is why didn’t he just look at the picture and follow up with a scripted comment along the lines of: “this is awful, my heart goes out to the boy and his parents, and cases like this are why we want to appropriately fund the NHS and stop the cuts.” Surprising given his background in the media but he doesn’t seem to grasp the basics of crisis management - which he also would’ve almost certainly been trained in by his PR team.

 

[CCFCSteve]

Its the tone of it Steve. “Don’t blame us, blame the profligate nurses” when were seeing staff in homemade bin bag suits. In sure a bunch of trained medical professionals know not to waste PPE in a pandemic. It also speaks to a fundamental issue with the way many conservatives fail to understand public service ethos and view it all as “wasteful”, when ever public servant I’ve known has usually supplemented their own equipment out of their own pocket if anything.

Right now, frankly even if the nurses are making PPE kites on their lunch break, you take it on the chin. The buck stops with you, you protect those on the front line because that’s your job. This government have been cowardly throughout, fearful of making tough decisions lest they be blamed for the consequences, scared to face scrutiny placing public workers and civil servants as human shields during press conferences.

It’s just a continuation of a way of acting in government since the start of the Brexit campaign proper and its wholly unsuitable for a national crisis.

I can’t disagree with a lot of what you say mate and the way it’s been taken (even if not meant) reflects poorly on Hancock. The underlying message is still correct under the circumstances though

 

[Ian1779]

Maybe clown wasn't the right word and I do agree with your points. His ideas were good but just think the execution was pretty terrible and the (lack of) Brexit stance was all over the place.

I have much more confidence in Starmer than I did Corbyn. I'm looking forward to him taking Johnson apart at PMQs, with his background he'll pick him apart with ease.

It’s funny you know, because alarm bells ring in my head over Starmer, not because of his ability at all or even his politics - but the fact that people like George Osbourne are clamouring to welcome him...

 

[skybluetony176]

Yes (as long as it’s not run out obviously !!!) I think one of the points being made yesterday was that PPE was potentially being changed per patient.

only picking up why was said, I don’t know the safety aspects (risks) etc

So the suggestion then is that changing PPE between patients is a mistake. Question, how do you know which patients have it and who doesn’t when A) we aren’t testing enough people and B) the results aren’t instantaneous? Surely the one thing we’ve learned is you eliminate the risk of spreading infection, hence the lockdown. How is not changing potentially contaminated PPE between patients anything other than best practice in the effort to contain the virus? Seems to me that changing PPE should be the standard not a criticism.

 

[Astute]

My girlfriend gets new PPE at the start of each shift, I’d presume and hope this is the same there.

But they are arguing about fresh PPE after dealing with each patient. This would mean your girlfriend isn't getting anywhere near as much as she should.

 

[PVA]

An 11 year old boy with no underlying issues has died from the virus, utterly tragic.

 

[Astute]

You'd think so, but it seems to be different for them.

Corbyn is/was a total clown, and there are many clowns (and worse) in the party. As someone who voted Labour in the last election I'm more than happy to admit that.

Yet Tory voters will defend them to the hilt, no matter what. Even if their actions are affecting or, worse, costing lives. Even if they've done/said something which they had previously pulled up a Labour MP for.

Both sides are as bad as each other. If you would have described Corbyn as a clown before the last election the knives would have been out for you.

Nothing will change until honesty comes to most. And I can't see it happening for a long time.

 

[Nick]

My kids are doing an egg hunt around the house, hardly rocket science. What’s up with some people?

You won't get Facebook likes for that.

 

[SkyBlueDom26]

Spain going to start reopening

 

[clint van damme]

Right, I’m going to put this out there as an alternative view, awaiting to be abused but here it goes and please hear me out.....

Firstly, do I think Hancock is out of his depth, yes, most probably (for all his historical issues with the NHS Hunt would’ve no doubt been far better in these circumstances but that’s currently irrelevant)

Do I think his comment about misuse of PPE was as callous as it’s been made out to be, no. In actual fact it’s a valid point. In the briefing he was asking people to follow the PPE guidelines ie make sure you are wearing enough/adequate PPE but also not to overuse it

Now if there was an infinite supply (and no global pandemic) this would just be a ridiculous thing to say (what’s a few quid to protect a life etc etc). However as we know there is a potential shortage and this situation may well get worse nationally and globally before it gets better. as I think SBD and others have highlighted countries have also banned exports and we don’t currently make much of our own. It was mentioned yesterday 700m pieces of PPF had been distributed to NHS/social care etc since the start of the outbreak and one of the comments was that a doctor/nurse can apparently safely wear some of the same PPE for a session rather than change per patient (which will no doubt come with its own risks, take additional time etc). Let’s assume for example it’s three patients per session, over a month that could be a difference of hundreds of millions of pieces of PPE, some of which could be in short supply or difficult to replace in future.

Ive said before that for me PPE distribution (and supply line) and testing of NHS workers are the two genuine issues I would want/expect to be addressed asap and fully investigated once this nightmare is over. I’m sure the last thing health workers want to hear when they are risking their lives is ‘be careful not to overuse PPE’ but if by using PPE safely and sensibly, as per guidelines it means there is more to go around and in turn save their or colleagues life in future, it’s maybe not such an outrageous thing to say.

*Prepares tin hat but hopefully people get the point being made. As I say this isn’t about preparedness etc this is about what was discussed at the briefing

I read about a doctor today whose department are reusing PPE on several occasions when on average each person treating a patient would need on average 4 sets of PPE to treat that patient during the duration of their stay (Think the article was in the FT).

Given that situation I have every faith in the staff of the NHS to utilise the equipment they have to the max and I don't believe they need advice or underhand insults from a cretin like Hancock.

 

[CCFCSteve]

So the suggestion then is that changing PPE between patients is a mistake. Question, how do you know which patients have it and who doesn’t when A) we aren’t testing enough people and B) the results aren’t instantaneous? Surely the one thing we’ve learned is you eliminate the risk of spreading infection, hence the lockdown. How is not changing potentially contaminated PPE between patients anything other than best practice in the effort to contain the virus? Seems to me that changing PPE should be the standard not a criticism.

Just to be clear, I’m commenting on what was mentioned at the briefing not the science behind it (I’ve got no idea, like everyone else on here). Also I presume they are talking about changes between those patients already diagnosed with coronavirus. I’d imagine the whole units (docs, nurses etc) will only dealing with Coronavirus patients not mixing with non coronavirus patients

 

[clint van damme]

Yes (as long as it’s not run out obviously !!!) I think one of the points being made yesterday was that PPE was potentially being changed per patient.

only picking up why was said, I don’t know the safety aspects (risks) etc

It should be changed per patient. 4 times on average.

 

[CCFCSteve]

I read about a doctor today whose department are reusing PPE on several occasions when on average each person treating a patient would need on average 4 sets of PPE to treat that patient during the duration of their stay (Think the article was in the FT).

Given that situation I have every faith in the staff of the NHS to utilise the equipment they have to the max and I don't believe they need advice or underhand insults from a cretin like Hancock.

Ive heard plenty of doctors and nurses saying they have got adequate PPE but as we know that doesn’t mean everyone across the 50k trusts, GP practices, care homes etc have

 

[Astute]

It’s funny you know, because alarm bells ring in my head over Starmer, not because of his ability at all or even his politics - but the fact that people like George Osbourne are clamouring to welcome him...

Went through this a couple of years ago on here. I was asked countless times who should lead Labour as I didn't see us having a chance against the Tories with Corbyn as leader. My choice was Starmer. Is he perfect? No. But can't think of anyone better in the Labour party.

We need to get away from the hard left if we want to see a Labour government. But the hard left will always disagree. Centre left.

 

[shmmeee]

Maybe Joy could apply

Crowdfund Coventry

 

[clint van damme]

Ive heard plenty of doctors and nurses saying they have got adequate PPE but as we know that doesn’t mean everyone across the 50k trusts, GP practices, care homes etc have

Just to clarify. I only read that stat this morning about 4 sets of PPE per patient but I will try and find article and link when I'm on my laptop next

 

[CCFCSteve]

It should be changed per patient. 4 times on average.

I was just commenting on what was discussed yesterday at the briefing. If I’ve misunderstood about the guidelines and what was said then I’ll hold my hands up (I don’t think I misheard though)

 

[fernandopartridge]

Spain going to start reopening

How does that bloke know?

 

[Nick]

MPs defending this thing about getting 10k to work from home saying it needs to go on equipment. What equipment are they buying?

All it needs is a basic computer and the internet.

 

[clint van damme]

Corbyn really drove this guy over the edge to full nutcase territory.

What amazes me about Hodges is he massively used the antisemitism row as a stick to beat Corbyn but now Miliband is back in the cabinet and the antisemitic tropes are being used against him again him and his ilk haven't said a word.
It's almost like they don't actually care about it and were just using it for their own political agenda.

 

[Astute]

What amazes me about Hodges is he massively used the antisemitism row as a stick to beat Corbyn but now Miliband is back in the cabinet and the antisemitic tropes are being used against him again him and his ilk haven't said a word.
It's almost like they don't actually care about it and were just using it for their own political agenda.

It worked last time so why not......

It isn't politics these days. It isn't about policies. It is about who can come out with the most believable bullshit.

 

[clint van damme]

MPs defending this thing about getting 10k to work from home saying it needs to go on equipment. What equipment are they buying?

All it needs is a basic computer and the internet.

They already get a work from home allowance it's been raised by 10k.
It won't just be then they're buying equipment for it will be all their staff. I'd imagine it will all be audited

 

[SkyBlueDom26]

How does that bloke know?

It’s in the article below

 

[chiefdave]

Just to be clear, I’m commenting on what was mentioned at the briefing not the science behind it (I’ve got no idea, like everyone else on here). Also I presume they are talking about changes between those patients already diagnosed with coronavirus. I’d imagine the whole units (docs, nurses etc) will only dealing with Coronavirus patients not mixing with non coronavirus patients

PPE isn't just used for coronavirus is it? What about things like MRSA? Can't imagine risking cross contamination is going to help things.

If Hancock is saying PPE has to be reused as we're short then he needs to actually admit we're short rather than making it sounds like NHS staff are being wasteful and not following normal procedures.

 

[Grendel]

Right, I’m going to put this out there as an alternative view, awaiting to be abused but here it goes and please hear me out.....

Firstly, do I think Hancock is out of his depth, yes, most probably (for all his historical issues with the NHS Hunt would’ve no doubt been far better in these circumstances but that’s currently irrelevant)

Do I think his comment about misuse of PPE was as callous as it’s been made out to be, no. In actual fact it’s a valid point. In the briefing he was asking people to follow the PPE guidelines ie make sure you are wearing enough/adequate PPE but also not to overuse it

Now if there was an infinite supply (and no global pandemic) this would just be a ridiculous thing to say (what’s a few quid to protect a life etc etc). However as we know there is a potential shortage and this situation may well get worse nationally and globally before it gets better. as I think SBD and others have highlighted countries have also banned exports and we don’t currently make much of our own. It was mentioned yesterday 700m pieces of PPF had been distributed to NHS/social care etc since the start of the outbreak and one of the comments was that a doctor/nurse can apparently safely wear some of the same PPE for a session rather than change per patient (which will no doubt come with its own risks, take additional time etc). Let’s assume for example it’s three patients per session, over a month that could be a difference of hundreds of millions of pieces of PPE, some of which could be in short supply or difficult to replace in future.

Ive said before that for me PPE distribution (and supply line) and testing of NHS workers are the two genuine issues I would want/expect to be addressed asap and fully investigated once this nightmare is over. I’m sure the last thing health workers want to hear when they are risking their lives is ‘be careful not to overuse PPE’ but if by using PPE safely and sensibly, as per guidelines it means there is more to go around and in turn save their or colleagues life in future, it’s maybe not such an outrageous thing to say.

*Prepares tin hat but hopefully people get the point being made. As I say this isn’t about preparedness etc this is about what was discussed at the briefing

Spot on as ever

 

[Ian1779]

Went through this a couple of years ago on here. I was asked countless times who should lead Labour as I didn't see us having a chance against the Tories with Corbyn as leader. My choice was Starmer. Is he perfect? No. But can't think of anyone better in the Labour party.

We need to get away from the hard left if we want to see a Labour government. But the hard left will always disagree. Centre left.

As long as centre left means just that... not the covert right that it has been previously.

 

[Ian1779]

What amazes me about Hodges is he massively used the antisemitism row as a stick to beat Corbyn but now Miliband is back in the cabinet and the antisemitic tropes are being used against him again him and his ilk haven't said a word.
It's almost like they don't actually care about it and were just using it for their own political agenda.

Palestine

 

[CCFCSteve]

PPE isn't just used for coronavirus is it? What about things like MRSA? Can't imagine risking cross contamination is going to help things.

If Hancock is saying PPE has to be reused as we're short then he needs to actually admit we're short rather than making it sounds like NHS staff are being wasteful and not following normal procedures.

As I mentioned to to Tony, I’d imagine they were talking about changing between coronavirus patients only and they’d be in separate units

 

[CCFCSteve]

Spot on as ever

If only we could agree on Biamou being a useful squad centre forward ! (I’m sure you agree deep down)

 

[RegTheDonk]

My girlfriend gets new PPE at the start of each shift, I’d presume and hope this is the same there.

I would think that would be the absolute minimum. Staff need to protect themselves of course, but also prevent cross infection. Every time they have to leave a Covid ward, weather to treat other patients or just go for a fag break, you would presume safe undressing into clynical waste bags to prevent exposure to others.

Clint mentioned 4 sets per patient. Is it you stay with one patient all day, and need 4 changes? Or do you have to deal with multiple patients and change each time? I think we need someone who's actually on the wards and knows exactly what the policies are before we can judge the shortfall.

I can forgive the government for any initial shortfall in supply. This has been, to be fair to them, an unprcedented few weeks with things going downhill rapidly. No excuse now though to not have plans in place and an understanding of supply and demand.

 

[skybluetony176]

Spot on as ever

It’s up there with going out into the street and randomly kissing strangers logic in how to stop the spread of the infection.