Coronavirus Thread (Off Topic, Politics) (224 Viewers)

[Astute]

That is a very selective summary if you don’t mind me saying.
Almost like you have an agenda or prejudged opinion.

Very selective?

I missed out the alleged bits. I missed out the parts which were said by those that we don't know who they are.

OK. What has Starmer had to do with it? And this includes CVD. He wasn't in charge when it all went on. He wasn't in charge when the party legal decided to drop it.

 

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[Astute]

I don't think a policy to renationalise the railways was the probelm , it was that that policy extended to renationalising everything. I think renationalising railways was popular. Not that that made a great deal of difference over all.
It was a poor campaign and the concessions made to centrists over Europe was a killer.
McDonnell held his hands up to getting it wrong, I don't think Corbyn ever did.

To which I fully agree with.

 

[clint van damme]

Very selective?

I missed out the alleged bits. I missed out the parts which were said by those that we don't know who they are.

OK. What has Starmer had to do with it? And this includes CVD. He wasn't in charge when it all went on. He wasn't in charge when the party legal decided to drop it.

I'd imagine the party lawyers can only recommend not submitting it. I doubt they could instruct the party leader or those concerned not to.
As far as I'm concerned we have a man at the helm who has refused to reveal his financial backers and who has suppressed an important report, red flags going up everywhere.

 

[Brylowes]

It was a campaign on Boris’ terms - he set the agenda, he already had the tag lines ready to go. We pushed for an election we didn’t want. Political suicide at its finest. Just look at Swinson... hers was even worse!

In fairness it was they that pushed for the election, Labour were stuck between a rock and a hard place.
The whole Brexit fiasco was a Tory fuck up ‘it really should have finished that party for a generation at
Least, the fact it’s ended up doing that very thing to Labour is a measure of the politicaly baron landscape
We live in.

 

[Astute]

The only thing we ever disagreed on was Corbyn. I believed (and still do) that he was a decent man with decent principles and the right moral compass. I concede that is clearly not enough - as much as that frustrates me.

The whole Sky News thing is showing what lots of people always believed in the party.... it was an inside job to undermine the leadership by obstructing the process of a small amount of complaints to create a narrative of incompetence and ignoring the problem. And that’s not even getting into the biggest issue which is all about support of Palestine... it’s the crux of it all. Just look at how they tried the same stuff on Sanders (like they did to Miliband as well) - Sanders shut it down by calling it out as shit from Day 1.

How about all the skeletons in the closet which gave too much ammunition out to those who didn't like him? And yet again it isn't me saying he was guilty of anything. But he was there to be shot down. He also elected people he had been with for many years instead of those who could have done a better job. And personally don't think he held an audience well.

 

[Ian1779]

Very selective?

I missed out the alleged bits. I missed out the parts which were said by those that we don't know who they are.

OK. What has Starmer had to do with it? And this includes CVD. He wasn't in charge when it all went on. He wasn't in charge when the party legal decided to drop it.

If you are right about the decision being pre-Starmer - which isn’t clear from the article either way, he needs to come out as the leader and insist that this is submitted.

If not then it ‘appears’ that the unity line he said last week is actually not the case. Seeing as the ‘grown ups’ are back in charge, let’s see if they do the ‘grown up’ thing.

 

[Astute]

Indeed, he quoted only the sources who want the report suppressed, the first half of the report tells a different story.
Astute is quite within his rights to agree with the former but personally I don't.

I quoted the start of the article and the end of the article. Most of the rest was hearsay. And none of it blamed Starmer for anything. But you seem to have it in for him.

 

[clint van damme]

How about all the skeletons in the closet which gave too much ammunition out to those who didn't like him? And yet again it isn't me saying he was guilty of anything. But he was there to be shot down. He also elected people he had been with for many years instead of those who could have done a better job. And personally don't think he held an audience well.

he made many,many mistakes.
George Galloway did a critique of his leadership on his radio show last week and he was spot on with many of his observations. I liked a lot of what he was trying to do but with hindsight, and it was obvious at the time to many but I didn't see it clearly myself, he was a poor leader. Still a decent man with decent ideas though in my opinion.

 

[Ring Of Steel]

And for community spirit......WTF

'Crazy' town relieves lockdown with mass mooing

they need to get the boyband Blue involved in getting people to stay indoors. They had the whole city on lockdown just by driving by in their low ride.

 

[Astute]

renationalisng railways does not cost billions, it doesn't cost anything if you do it as franchises expire. The government do it all the time.
It was the renationisation of utilities that would cost billions.

Don't you remember that renationalisation was on offer of the railways at cost. When I said it would be better to wait until the franchise's expire many agreed with me. And that includes those who somehow see me as anti Labour.

 

[Ian1779]

In fairness it was they that pushed for the election, Labour were stuck between a rock and a hard place.
The whole Brexit fiasco was a Tory fuck up ‘it really should have finished that party for a generation at
Least, the fact it’s ended up doing that very thing to Labour is a measure of the politicaly baron landscape
We live in.

Ideology trumps all in the age of identity politics. We were fed a narrative that everything wrong in society was down to immigration (immigrants) and there will be people that think every problem will be solved by leaving the EU now. Those who wished to leave the EU for other reasons that didn’t fall into this were subsumed by the overreaching ideology (this is where a lot of left minded leavers sit)

 

[Ian1779]

Don't you remember that renationalisation was on offer of the railways at cost. When I said it would be better to wait until the franchise's expire many agreed with me. And that includes those who somehow see me as anti Labour.

But the plan was always to re-nationalise on expiry of franchises. The cost element was calculated but was never going to happen. It was the media strangling the truth with a lie. Easy then to roll out the ‘how we will pay for it all’ line.

 

[Astute]

I'd imagine the party lawyers can only recommend not submitting it. I doubt they could instruct the party leader or those concerned not to.
As far as I'm concerned we have a man at the helm who has refused to reveal his financial backers and who has suppressed an important report, red flags going up everywhere.

Starmer has only just got the job. It would have already been sorted before he could have a say. And like the part that I quoted 'I hope Starmer follows through with what he promised' on the subject of fighting against what has gone on. Give him a chance. If he dies nothing I will agree with you.

 

[clint van damme]

I quoted the start of the article and the end of the article. Most of the rest was hearsay. And none of it blamed Starmer for anything. But you seem to have it in for him.

I'm not saying Starmer was behind it but if people actually care about the antisemitism issue in the Labour party then why would they suppress the report considering it looks like it contains a wealth on new evidence, (if this isn't the case that will soon become evident when it's submitted).

I haven't got it in for Starmer, I said I'd give him a chance, but he's not off to a good start. As I said in another post, when all the other party candidates revealed their backers and he wouldn't reveal all of his I was immediately suspicious.

 

[clint van damme]

Starmer has only just got the job. It would have already been sorted before he could have a say. And like the part that I quoted 'I hope Starmer follows through with what he promised' on the subject of fighting against what has gone on. Give him a chance. If he dies nothing I will agree with you.

fair enough comment.

 

[skybluetony176]

So much for the head start
UK coronavirus death toll 'could end up being highest in Europe'

 

[Astute]

he made many,many mistakes.
George Galloway did a critique of his leadership on his radio show last week and he was spot on with many of his observations. I liked a lot of what he was trying to do but with hindsight, and it was obvious at the time to many but I didn't see it clearly myself, he was a poor leader. Still a decent man with decent ideas though in my opinion.

Which is what I said at the time and got slaughtered for. And still get slaughtered for now.

Sometimes I just can't get my head around it. I desperately want a Labour government. But I am not supposed to mention any problems I see. Even those who now like yourself acknowledge that he wasn't the best person to have as leader still constantly have a go at me for saying so.

 

[Astute]

If you are right about the decision being pre-Starmer - which isn’t clear from the article either way, he needs to come out as the leader and insist that this is submitted.

If not then it ‘appears’ that the unity line he said last week is actually not the case. Seeing as the ‘grown ups’ are back in charge, let’s see if they do the ‘grown up’ thing.

Which has been my exact point.

Maybe it would be better to look at it all again. Start anew. It will continue to cause damage to the Labour party until properly sorted out.

 

[clint van damme]

Which is what I said at the time and got slaughtered for. And still get slaughtered for now.

Sometimes I just can't get my head around it. I desperately want a Labour government. But I am not supposed to mention any problems I see. Even those who now like yourself acknowledge that he wasn't the best person to have as leader still constantly have a go at me for saying so.

I haven't had a go at you for saying so. The campaign was a shambles.
Like I said, and I might be wrong, I dont think he has acknowledged that.

 

[clint van damme]

So much for the head start
UK coronavirus death toll 'could end up being highest in Europe'

Saw that interview. Depressing stuff.
We definitely locked down too late. But as ever hindsight is a wonderful thing.

I just hope Johnson didn't ignore his medical team to go with advise given by Cummings because that would be unforgivable.

 

[fernandopartridge]

Saw that interview. Depressing stuff.
We definitely locked down too late. But as ever hindsight is a wonderful thing.

I just hope Johnson didn't ignore his medical team to go with advise given by Cummings because that would be unforgivable.

It isn't really hindsight, the evidence for foresight was all there. It was a deliberate act which they must pay for.

 

[shmmeee]

renationalisng railways does not cost billions, it doesn't cost anything if you do it as franchises expire. The government do it all the time.
It was the renationisation of utilities that would cost billions.

Personally I don’t think Mail and water are worth it right now, and we should’ve gone with the 2017 policy (maybe we did part of the problem was even Labour members didn’t know all our positions) of having community ran energy companies competing with the big six.

Once we started talking about forcing companies to sell below market value we sounded mental TBH.

 

[Astute]

I haven't had a go at you for saying so. The campaign was a shambles.
Like I said, and I might be wrong, I dont think he has acknowledged that.

He hasn't that I know of either. But would the rags have said so?

Didn't say yourself. I said those like you that have recognised since that he wasn't a good leader. Just look at how many people actually agree with me but try to word it differently.

We missed out on a massive chance of having a Labour government. The Tories were in disarray. And on top of that they elected Boris. And ideal Labour moment became a nightmare.

 

[clint van damme]

Personally I don’t think Mail and water are worth it right now, and we should’ve gone with the 2017 policy (maybe we did part of the problem was even Labour members didn’t know all our positions) of having community ran energy companies competing with the big six.

Once we started talking about forcing companies to sell below market value we sounded mental TBH.

I disagree on water. We should renationalise and get what is becoming an increasingly precious commodity under state ownership.
The water companies are constantly under performing and send fortunes out of the country in terms of dividends.

I agree about the mail and like your idea on community ran energy companies.
Don't think renationalising the energy companies was feasible.

 

[Ian1779]

He hasn't that I know of either. But would the rags have said so?

Didn't say yourself. I said those like you that have recognised since that he wasn't a good leader. Just look at how many people actually agree with me but try to word it differently.

We missed out on a massive chance of having a Labour government. The Tories were in disarray. And on top of that they elected Boris. And ideal Labour moment became a nightmare.

In 2017 I’d agree totally - and more galling is that fact that people in the party tried their hardest to undermine from within. The momentum and public feeling was there then. However the moment we turned away from not respecting the vote we were done for (I said this repeatedly at the time too) - we helped to kick the can down the road and it got solely pinned on us. (See the LD taking the brunt for the 2010-15 coalition)

They only had to get one thing right and it was enough for them. As a country we have gone around the world critiquing other countries for not adhering to democracy - and we didn’t even look inwards at ourselves. It could have been Johnson, Gove even bloody Rees-Mogg or Patel, they would still have won in 2019.

 

[Astute]

I disagree on water. We should renationalise and get what is becoming an increasingly precious commodity under state ownership.
The water companies are constantly under performing and send fortunes out of the country in terms of dividends.

I agree about the mail and like your idea on community ran energy companies.
Don't think renationalising the energy companies was feasible.

And this is where I personally differ to most again.

The energy markets would be cheap if done the right way. It isn't too difficult to become a distributor of power. Start this up. Undercut the other companies. Inform everyone that the profits go straight to good causes. You wouldn't have to buy out these companies. You just take their customers away. Those who can't make money would pull out of the market/go under. Their workforces would still have a job to go to as they would be needed. Those making money out of the UK would lose out.

 

[westcountry_skyblue]

If Labour get rid of momentum and sort out their anti Semitic problem they’ll get my vote next time!!

 

[Brylowes]

But if the masks work why do they wear full face visors? I get my temperature taken before I am allowed on site at work each shift. They wear the full visors.

I think the eyes can absorb the virus can’t they.

 

[Astute]

In 2017 I’d agree totally - and more galling is that fact that people in the party tried their hardest to undermine from within. The momentum and public feeling was there then. However the moment we turned away from not respecting the vote we were done for (I said this repeatedly at the time too) - we helped to kick the can down the road and it got solely pinned on us. (See the LD taking the brunt for the 2010-15 coalition)

They only had to get one thing right and it was enough for them. As a country we have gone around the world critiquing other countries for not adhering to democracy - and we didn’t even look inwards at ourselves. It could have been Johnson, Gove even bloody Rees-Mogg or Patel, they would still have won in 2019.

And sadly I have to agree.

The Brexit vote was massive for us. Our plans had always been to live in France after retirement. Suddenly our long term plan had gone. We ended up deciding it was best for the wife to move away with the kids. And now this bloody virus has made the situation much worse. My kids don't know when they will see their dad again.

But yes I fully understand and agree with your point on not going against the majority. Something else I constantly got slaughtered for.

Something else the Tories should always be remembered for. They used having a referendum as a bribe to the electorate when it looked they wouldn't win. Then they ran a fear campaign instead of stating all the proper reasons for staying in the EU. And politics have been pathetic ever since.

Have no policies? Not a problem. Just rip apart the policies from the other sides. Need a new leader? Elect a clown.

 

[Astute]

I think the eyes can absorb the virus can’t they.

If you touch something contaminated then touch your face without washing your hands you are at risk. Same if you are wearing gloves.

Or so they say......

 

[skybluetony176]

I disagree on water. We should renationalise and get what is becoming an increasingly precious commodity under state ownership.
The water companies are constantly under performing and send fortunes out of the country in terms of dividends.

I agree about the mail and like your idea on community ran energy companies.
Don't think renationalising the energy companies was feasible.

Just look at the controversy surrounding Thames Water, dividend payments and who actually paid for the investment in the Thames Tideway Scheme. The tax payer ultimately bore the brunt of the huge investment either as customers or through tax relief. The people who receive dividends from the profits of Thames Water ultimately invested nothing in a scheme that ultimately assists their dividends. Money for nothing, literally.
Don’t get me wrong, the scheme desperately needed doing but given the scheme is going to save Thames Water millions in annual fines for polluting the London river system you would think that dividends receivers should have contributed at least something to the cost. Even though it hasn’t paid external dividends for a few years it’s still paying internal dividends. As you also point out water is a valuable commodity and a fairly safe bet in the shares market if for no other reason than the government and therefore taxpayers will always invest in the infrastructure either directly or indirectly so even when the dividends aren’t being paid out the share price typically does well.

 

[Tommo1993]

Yeah gloves will transmit it just as easily, unless you change them for EVERY little thing you do.

Tesco made me laugh. Disinfect your trolley at the front door when you’ve already been pushing it around for 15 minutes. Yeah well done.

 

[Ian1779]

If Labour get rid of momentum and sort out their anti Semitic problem they’ll get my vote next time!!

They haven’t got a problem - they have a very small issue.

 

[Ring Of Steel]

Saw that interview. Depressing stuff.
We definitely locked down too late. But as ever hindsight is a wonderful thing.

I just hope Johnson didn't ignore his medical team to go with advise given by Cummings because that would be unforgivable.

for those interested, here’s a comparison between U.K. and a country that started with the same underfunded health system and paucity of facilities- the thread shows pretty clearly the differences

she’s dead right about the media- in the U.K. we have a lethal blend of second rate politicians and a piss poor media, that’s a dangerous combination

 

[Astute]

They haven’t got a problem - they have a very small issue.

It is an issue that is a massive problem. If it wasn't a problem and only a very small issue it wouldn't even be mentioned.