Coronavirus Thread (Off Topic, Politics) (143 Viewers)

[clint van damme]

And back yet again to relying on the media to put the truthful account over for no reply to come back.

We all know the Tories are failing badly. So they won't reply until they have to. This is why I am waiting a few more days. It isn't as though the 21st is a long way off.

And I hope you are happy then. Because I have a feeling you won't be happy whatever happens.

we all know the tories are failing badly yet Johnsons approval ratings are sky high?

 

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[clint van damme]

And yet again you say things should happen. But when I ask you about the details you say it doesn't matter about the details.

You seem to want Starmer to solve the problems that have gone on in the Labour party for years in just a few days without any evidence. Don't you think they should look at evidence first or should be suspended about half of the party as some sort of allegation has been made?

i don't expect Starmer to sort Labours problems out in days but I do expect to see him attacking the tories.
And as I said, it's common practice to suspend people based on allegations. I've seen it happen myself.
A company can open themselves up to real issues if they don't.

 

[shmmeee]

Point missed completely. You're so entrenched in your opinions you wont listen to a neutral. Carry on the way you are. Us floating voters will carry on voting tory.

You’re not neutral though, you’ve admitted you’re anti-Labour. I just pointed out that if you’re honest you can’t explain why. “Anti working class” is clearly bollocks. At best you mean “pro immigrant”.

Come on, prove me wrong. What Labour policies are anti working class and what Tory ones aren’t?

If you’ve paid any attention at all to my ranting about Labour you’ll know the last thing I want is to carry on as we are, but that doesn’t mean not calling our pure bollocks when I see it.

I don’t give a fuck who you vote for mate, but I’ll keep calling it how I see it no matter how many of you snowflakes start crying.

Edit: hang the fuck on. You keep boasting about how minted you are and what a massive house you live in. Why do you give a fuck about the working class? You’re clearly not one of them.

 

[Johnnythespider]

As I said earlier if they can vote Boris in they could vote anyone in.

I am more concerned with what is happening with my own party. I have been urging people to get behind Startmer. But for instance people are trying to find fault with Starmer. You have done the same yourself.

The Tories could put a monkey in charge and still win. Labour are in total disarray.

Raab has historical allegations? Wasn't a problem when we had a speaker much worse. And there is your problem. It has started to become acceptable.

If you couldn't get behind Corbyn for me, why should i get behind Starmer for you.

 

[Astute]

we all know the tories are failing badly yet Johnsons approval ratings are sky high?

And why is this?

We have had a leader that since the last GE has hardly said a word. We have a new leader getting hammered by those in his own party. Non stop allegations of wrongdoing even though there is a lack of evidence.

For over a month nobody has been able to question the Tories properly. Starmer has been asking questions since he took over. Hardly made the press and not been answered by the Tories.

I agree it is shite ATM. But you can't blame it all on Starmer. He has taken over our party when it is in its worse state in my lifetime. And I am not exactly a youngster. There is no magic wand to wave.

 

[Ring Of Steel]

Point missed completely. You're so entrenched in your opinions you wont listen to a neutral. Carry on the way you are. Us floating voters will carry on voting tory.

You're definitely a floater alright

 

[shmmeee]

If you couldn't get behind Corbyn for me, why should i get behind Starmer for you.

Why Labour won’t get elected in a nutshell.

Can we please stop the petty infighting and actually try and win an election?

 

[Astute]

If you couldn't get behind Corbyn for me, why should i get behind Starmer for you.

Was Corbyn a good leader? Was I not allowed to mention what he kept getting wrong for a long time? Was I wrong when I said I could see a big defeat coming? Yet Starmer is crap because he hasn't corrected everything that is wrong in a week.

And it isn't for me. It is for the future of the Labour party. But it seems many can't see it.

 

[clint van damme]

And why is this?

We have had a leader that since the last GE has hardly said a word. We have a new leader getting hammered by those in his own party. Non stop allegations of wrongdoing even though there is a lack of evidence.

For over a month nobody has been able to question the Tories properly. Starmer has been asking questions since he took over. Hardly made the press and not been answered by the Tories.

I agree it is shite ATM. But you can't blame it all on Starmer. He has taken over our party when it is in its worse state in my lifetime. And I am not exactly a youngster. There is no magic wand to wave.

I don't blame it all on Starmer, far from it, this mess has been years in the making but it's now his responsibility, as it would have been whoever took over the party.

 

[Astute]

Why Labour won’t get elected in a nutshell.

Can we please stop the petty infighting and actually try and win an election?

Spot on.

But your comment will be ignored as we have a new target. Just like football and the fans target has left.

 

[Astute]

I don't blame it all on Starmer, far from it, this mess has been years in the making but it's now his responsibility, as it would have been whoever took over the party.

So can we wait until we reconvene until we say how useless he is?

If he is useless I will hold my hands up and admit I was wrong to say he could be the one to take us forward. I will join you in saying we need someone better. The problem would be who.

 

[clint van damme]

So can we wait until we reconvene until we say how useless he is?

If he is useless I will hold my hands up and admit I was wrong to say he could be the one to take us forward. I will join you in saying we need someone better. The problem would be who.

i'm not saying hes useless but I'm looking at this from two angles.
Sorting the party out, agreed, long term project.
Attacking the tories, his job from day one, not done much so far.
Hopefully he'll start when they reconvene but how many of the people he needs to win over will be won over by a good performance at PMQs alone? He can't get the message across through that forum alone.

 

[djr8369]

It’s the same every day. Pushing for answers that the government don’t know/won’t give at present and/or repeating questions already asked by others (in different words).

I think the daily press briefings are worth having (a useful update for those that want it) but if anyone’s looking for anything groundbreaking on a daily basis they’re going to be disappointed. The monotonous/repetitive messaging might be dull but on the face of it, looking at the numbers following the measures, it does appear to have been successful to date

In fairness to the journalists they have to keep asking the same questions with different wording because the government never answers them.

I am becoming increasingly frustrated and worried about the governments communication. I struggle to watch the daily press conference because there is never any new information aside from the figures and it is always delivered in a style that seems aimed at 5 year olds. It's all very well saying they want to keep a clear message but the public has generally been very compliant and understanding and deserve better. More often than not the public, media, businesses and institutions have been ahead of the government.

The repeated question currently is what coming out of lockdown might look like and what kind of time frame that might happen in. A perfectly reasonable question especially in light of the fact that many countries have laid out exactly that this week. Yet the answers is always along the lines of "we clearly can't give an exact date" and "it would be irresponsible to come out of lock down now" completely twisting the question. A Tory MP lost his cool a bit and took this to the extreme last night on News Night.

The other issue with this is how the government loyalists are increasingly pandering to them while becoming irrationally angry at journalists. I fear we are starting to see the dangerous side effects of some of the Brexit rhetoric.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

we all know the tories are failing badly yet Johnsons approval ratings are sky high?

This is why Cummings is going nowhere and it doesn’t matter who is in charge of Labour. We are in Boomer Britain and as long as that’s the case he’ll keep winning

 

[djr8369]

i don't expect Starmer to sort Labours problems out in days but I do expect to see him attacking the tories.
And as I said, it's common practice to suspend people based on allegations. I've seen it happen myself.
A company can open themselves up to real issues if they don't.

In fairness to Starmer even his very even handed comment that now isn't a time for political point scoring but the government needs to be held to account was reported out of context and described as political point scoring. Presumably he is trying to walk a very fine line. The tories have incredible levels of loyalty from a large portion of the nation due to Brexit of the creative use of propaganda and it is going to be very difficult for labour to start to eat away at that. It certainly won't happen by being heavy handed while everyone is on edge and Johnson's ratings are going up even though we are one of the hardest hit and worse prepared countries.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Which is what I said at the time and many tried to make out that I am a Tory voter.

Just look on here. Whatever Corbyn did he got full support. He was supposed to have done the right thing on not saying leave or remain clearly. A fair few did see it as a problem though.

And it is the same for both Labour and Tory voters. They only see what they want to see and ignore what is wrong. So you won't lose the hardcore voters easily. You need to aim for the floating voters. Most are not rich or poor. Free internet was never going to win their vote. Those who wanted out of the EU went Tory. Those who wanted to remain were spread over the parties. But they knew the things that wouldn't benefit them much would have to be paid for.

The Tories offered next to nothing. So there wasn't a lot to worry about.

Yes life is shit. If life is OK for the majority they don't need change. But offer them something that could improve their life and look realistic and you win votes.

Most people will say they care about those having a hard time in life. But when it comes to it most will vote for what is best for themselves.

That isn’t true is it, I don’t remember anyone except Ian saying that Corbyn would win and nobody was praising him at every turn. I wanted him gone for months before the election and just about put a cross in the box for Labour because the alternative was worse.

 

[Wyken Sky Blue]

Norman Hunter has passed away after contracting Covid-19:
Norman Hunter: Leeds United legend dies after contracting coronavirus

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

But not so left to alienate the floating voters.

Things changed when Scotland was lost to Labour. We need left wing policies but left wing policies don't get you in power anymore. The only chance we have is Starmer doing what John Smith did in the 90's. If not we will be under Tory rule for a long time.

But Labour lost out to the SNP in Scotland, another left wing party. Arguably more left than Labour is.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

But Labour lost out to the SNP in Scotland, another left wing party. Arguably more left than Labour is.

Not more left than Corbyn but helping the Tories in 2014 has killed Labour up there. Just like helping the Tories killed the Lib Dems and the DUP.

 

[djr8369]

But not so left to alienate the floating voters.

Things changed when Scotland was lost to Labour. We need left wing policies but left wing policies don't get you in power anymore. The only chance we have is Starmer doing what John Smith did in the 90's. If not we will be under Tory rule for a long time.

In fairness Astute I don't think policies make a dammed bit of difference these days. It's all personality, perception and framing.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

In fairness Astute I don't think policies make a dammed bit of difference these days. It's all personality, perception and framing.

G was right about one thing, policies don’t win elections. It’s all about conning a big enough coalition into believing you can do the job. The Tories have boomers and dumbasses and while we could get the dumbasses I think the boomers are ungettable without the media

 

[djr8369]

Does anybody else think the governments criteria for easing lock down is somewhat foolish considering they have spent the last few weeks telling us we have adequate PPE and any lack is just NHS staff feeling like they can't get enough of it and they are now saying testing is not being used to capacity as there isn't enough demand?

NHS must be able to cope and provide sufficient care - we still have spare beds before any of the new Nightingale hospitals are used.
Evidence showing a sustained and consistent fall in daily death rates - supposedly at the peak now so should start dropping in a week.
Reliable data showing the rate of infection is decreasing to manageable levels.- told last night Ro down below one in the community.
Confidence enough tests and PPE are at hand to use - apparently in hand.
Confidence any adjustments won’t trigger a second peak - unknown, can't see how this will ever be known?

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Not more left than Corbyn but helping the Tories in 2014 has killed Labour up there. Just like helping the Tories killed the Lib Dems and the DUP.

It would be nice to know how you manage to fool so many people it's the other part that's to blame not you. Common factor in all those scenarios - Tories. Yet the blame was taken by the LD, DUP and Labour.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

It would be nice to know how you manage to fool so many people it's the other part that's to blame not you. Common factor in all those scenarios - Tories. Yet the blame was taken by the LD, DUP and Labour.

Those 3 parties tried to play fairly and got wiped off the floor. You don’t beat the Tories by playing by the rules-we have to be cynical and kick them in the balls

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Confidence any adjustments won’t trigger a second peak - unknown, can't see how this will ever be known?

Watching what happens in other countries who blink first would be a good indicator.

 

[skybluetony176]

You're definitely a floater alright

No ones shot his dingy yet to sink it so clearly he is a floating voter.

 

[djr8369]

G was right about one thing, policies don’t win elections. It’s all about conning a big enough coalition into believing you can do the job. The Tories have boomers and dumbasses and while we could get the dumbasses I think the boomers are ungettable without the media

Only thing you could do with the boomers is try and outdo the tories at their targeted messaging and spend millions on pretend think tanks and campaign groups. I doubt that will ever work now the boomers are living through their WW2 by staying at home, watching TV and clapping and can now finally shrug off the inadequacy they felt compared to their parents and grandparents.

This might sound harsh but the surge in support for Johnson shows the government are perceived as doing a good job and the community spirit (Blitz spirit if you will) will stick in people's heads. Unless they personally experience a loss or have a loved one who works in the NHS and is critical of the government there will be no change in allegiance away from the tories.

 

[djr8369]

Watching what happens in other countries who blink first would be a good indicator.

Yes that is the only thing I can think of.

Of course, that would be comparing apples and bananas and we would never do that would we?

 

[Johnnythespider]

Why Labour won’t get elected in a nutshell.

Can we please stop the petty infighting and actually try and win an election?

Precisely my point, people who wouldn't get behind Corbyn for the good of the party now telling people to get behind Starmer for the good of the party, and then saying we need left wing policies when the best we can hope for is tory lite, FWIW i voted for Starmer, hated doing it but we need to end this tory shit show, but i may not vote labour at an election as i don't think they ate going to offer the social reform i think we need, just more cap doffing and forelock tugging tradition.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Only thing you could do with the boomers is try and outdo the tories at their targeted messaging and spend millions on pretend think tanks and campaign groups. I doubt that will ever work now the boomers are living through their WW2 by staying at home, watching TV and clapping and can now finally shrug off the inadequacy they felt compared to their parents and grandparents.

This might sound harsh but the surge in support for Johnson shows the government are perceived as doing a good job and the community spirit (Blitz spirit if you will) will stick in people's heads. Unless they personally experience a loss or have a loved one who works in the NHS and is critical of the government there will be no change in allegiance away from the tories.

You would need a major news network on side along with a major right or centre right newspaper and that’s never happening here. Johnson has had the virus and will take the credit for it going away-it’s the equivalent of Churchill taking a bullet in terms of effect on popularity

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Yes that is the only thing I can think of.

Of course, that would be comparing apples and bananas and we would never do that would we?

tbf, it depends how you compare. I agree that comparing absolute numbers is futile. Even trends can be tenuous at times, but there is something to be said for comparing what happens in response to what.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Precisely my point, people who wouldn't get behind Corbyn for the good of the party now telling people to get behind Starmer for the good of the party, and then saying we need left wing policies when the best we can hope for is tory lite, FWIW i voted for Starmer, hated doing it but we need to end this tory shit show, but i may not vote labour at an election as i don't think they ate going to offer the social reform i think we need, just more cap doffing and forelock tugging tradition.

tbf, as previously mentioned, what he stood on was surprisingly left wing. I expected more moderate although tbf, it just shows what happens when a man wears a suit, they're perceived as being centre or right leaning!

 

[djr8369]

Yes that is the only thing I can think of.

Of course, that would be comparing apples and bananas and we would never do that would we?

On that, and going back to the governments communication, it was telling the other day when a journalist mentioned that France were including care home deaths in their stats and if we did the same we'd have somewhat higher deaths than they have. Of course, the journalist was quickly pointed out as being foolish to compare two different countries with different circumstances even though minutes before we had been shown the cumulative death graphs where it was pointed out we were doing well relative to France and Spain.

It's disturbing how often we are being asked to believe two conflicting ideas.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

On that, and going back to the governments communication, it was telling the other day when a journalist mentioned that France were including care home deaths in their stats and if we did the same we'd have somewhat higher deaths than they have. Of course, the journalist was quickly pointed out as being foolish to compare two different countries with different circumstances even though minutes before we had been shown the cumulative death graphs where it was pointed out we were doing well relative to France and Spain.

It's disturbing how often we are being asked to believe two conflicting ideas.

This is like two people comparing underwear after shitting themselves

 

[djr8369]

tbf, it depends how you compare. I agree that comparing absolute numbers is futile. Even trends can be tenuous at times, but there is something to be said for comparing what happens in response to what.

Yes quite, I was being facetious as "not comparing apples and oranges" and such is so frequently being used as a get out for any questioning of how well the government has handled things.