Coronavirus Thread (Off Topic, Politics) (2 Viewers)

[CCFCSteve]

According to twitter Boris spent part of the day walking the grounds at Chequers, its a shame they clearly have no computers, cameras or WiFi and so he’s totally unable to speak to the country.

I don’t see any way at this stage that people can’t see he’s hiding. Biggest indictment though is that I don’t see too many people missing him.

what happened to Cummings, did he come down with it in the end as well?

This thread is as bizarre as ever I see ! (Hence my recent avoidance)

If Johnson was doing more people (opponents) would say he can’t have been ill enough for hospital/intensive care and was faking it, he’s recovering/recuperating and he’s hiding and should be back at work ?!! Go figure.

There have no doubt been some major government issues/failings in particular the difficulty in securing and distributing vast quantities of PPE but some of the rest of the stuff is way over the top.

However, this thread changed from including reasonably interesting and informative exchanges with genuine debating of good and bad elements of response (with a recognition of the challenges faced by countries around the world) to just toxic ranting. From what I can see there are are handful of countries who have handled this well (South Korea, Germany, Australia and NZ spring to mind) but the list of others struggling in various ways are endless. Not just Italy, Spain, USA, and France but look at the deaths per capita of Belgium, Holland etc. Even japan, with Tokyo hospitals now overflowing and turning patients away and their case numbers appear relatively low ? The world as a whole was underprepared and this nightmare is damaging everyone and even if certain countries might not have been as negatively impacted to date, what’s to say they won’t be in the coming months with potential second and third waves ?!

Ive said it before and I’ll say it again the constant negativity is just unhealthy

ps some positive takeaways on the house...

NHS England recorded deaths per day have been failing for over a week (800 to around 550 by the looks of things)

Hospital admissions are down from 20k a few days ago to around 17k and we are yet to breach ICU capacities (one of the major concerns going into this)

We will hopefully manage to have got through this with less stringent restrictions than many other European countries (which will have had significant but unquantifiable benefits for many)

IF (still an IF) the furlough scheme is operational next week and payrolls can be processed end of this month or early next potentially hundreds of thousands of jobs could be saved and we’ll be in decent position to come out of this once lockdown restrictions/measures are reduced

Things aren’t great and there’s still a long way to go. I’ve got no doubt beads will roll (senior people from PHE and probably Hancock) but for the time being try to at least look at the situation objectively with a tinge of positivity now and then (that’s to everyone, not just you ROS !)

Rant over - have a good evening all and stay safe

 

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[skybluetony176]

Coventrian looks pretty hot but I wish G would put his chest hair away

To be fair Grendull looks more like one of these

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Its rally round the flag effect. Aside from a few exceptions most leaders have had a poll boost, people don’t want to think someone shit is in charge during a crisis.

tbf, I'm game for a bit of that. I may be rather differently aligned to Steve politically, but there are times when I have a reasonably good day, and can be guaranteed that this thread is the ideal thing to puncture any positivity and make me feeling the lowest of the low! coventrian shopuldn't be banned just because he offers some righty bigoty relief from it all!

(This also, incidentally, shows why it would be folly for Starmer to go after the government completely at this present stage. There'll be time enough for inquests later, but nobody wants to be the Banquo at the banquet)

 

[Grendel]

I don't hate anyone. Not even idiotic people like yourself. I just feel pity for you.

My dislike of Bliar and Brown for going to war on a lie and being more like Tories are well known. They did many good things but also caused a lot of harm like the Tories always do. And even you know this.

Corbyn? Do you think he did well then?

But well done. You got the attention you crave.

When did you actually last vote labour then?

 

[Astute]

When did you actually last vote labour then?

Local elections. When did you last vote Labour?

 

[Grendel]

Local elections. When did you last vote Labour?

I mean in general elections - I never have

 

[Ring Of Steel]

tbf, I'm game for a bit of that. I may be rather differently aligned to Steve politically, but there are times when I have a reasonably good day, and can be guaranteed that this thread is the ideal thing to puncture any positivity and make me feeling the lowest of the low! coventrian shopuldn't be banned just because he offers some righty bigoty relief from it all!

(This also, incidentally, shows why it would be folly for Starmer to go after the government completely at this present stage. There'll be time enough for inquests later, but nobody wants to be the Banquo at the banquet)

The Conservatives know how to win elections, and they’d be going in for the kill right now if it was Labour in charge, exactly as any opposition with intentions to take over should be doing. In 5 years nobody will remember that they kept quiet during this crisis, but they would remember if Labour were currently pointing out all the disasters and asking “where is the PM?”

if you want to be seen as the party of leadership, show some strength ffs

 

[Astute]

I mean in general elections - I never have

If you ever honestly answered a question from me I would be bothered to answer you. But you never do. So I can't be bothered to answer you when all I will get back is plenty of bullshit from you.

Will answer just about anyone else though.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

The Conservatives know how to win elections, and they’d be going in for the kill right now if it was Labour in charge, exactly as any opposition with intentions to take over should be doing. In 5 years nobody will remember that they kept quiet during this crisis, but they would remember if Labour were currently pointing out all the disasters and asking “where is the PM?”

Attlee won by making sure he was in the same cabinet as Churchill.

 

[Grendel]

If you ever honestly answered a question from me I would be bothered to answer you. But you never do. So I can't be bothered to answer you when all I will get back is plenty of bullshit from you.

Will answer just about anyone else though.

So a proud labour man will not say when he last voted labour - that’s random even by your standards

Also I just answered your question

 

[Ring Of Steel]

This thread is as bizarre as ever I see ! (Hence my recent avoidance)

If Johnson was doing more people (opponents) would say he can’t have been ill enough for hospital/intensive care and was faking it, he’s recovering/recuperating and he’s hiding and should be back at work ?!! Go figure.

There have no doubt been some major government issues/failings in particular the difficulty in securing and distributing vast quantities of PPE but some of the rest of the stuff is way over the top.

However, this thread changed from including reasonably interesting and informative exchanges with genuine debating of good and bad elements of response (with a recognition of the challenges faced by countries around the world) to just toxic ranting. From what I can see there are are handful of countries who have handled this well (South Korea, Germany, Australia and NZ spring to mind) but the list of others struggling in various ways are endless. Not just Italy, Spain, USA, and France but look at the deaths per capita of Belgium, Holland etc. Even japan, with Tokyo hospitals now overflowing and turning patients away and their case numbers appear relatively low ? The world as a whole was underprepared and this nightmare is damaging everyone and even if certain countries might not have been as negatively impacted to date, what’s to say they won’t be in the coming months with potential second and third waves ?!

Ive said it before and I’ll say it again the constant negativity is just unhealthy

ps some positive takeaways on the house...

NHS England recorded deaths per day have been failing for over a week (800 to around 550 by the looks of things)

Hospital admissions are down from 20k a few days ago to around 17k and we are yet to breach ICU capacities (one of the major concerns going into this)

We will hopefully manage to have got through this with less stringent restrictions than many other European countries (which will have had significant but unquantifiable benefits for many)

IF (still an IF) the furlough scheme is operational next week and payrolls can be processed end of this month or early next potentially hundreds of thousands of jobs could be saved and we’ll be in decent position to come out of this once lockdown restrictions/measures are reduced

Things aren’t great and there’s still a long way to go. I’ve got no doubt beads will roll (senior people from PHE and probably Hancock) but for the time being try to at least look at the situation objectively with a tinge of positivity now and then (that’s to everyone, not just you ROS !)

Rant over - have a good evening all and stay safe

I am looking at it objectively and what I see is a hiding PM, health workers about to be dressed in bin bags & gardening clothes, lies about testing & PPE, a health minister utterly out of his depth- the list is endless. I see no benefit whatsoever in pretending everything is superb, and I also note the bog-standard response of “yeah but look at them!”, bit pathetic really.

Being positive is a state of mind, it is not telling everyone lies that a pile of shit is actually a gold medal.

 

[Ring Of Steel]

Attlee won by making sure he was in the same cabinet as Churchill.

I think you would have to agree that we live in a very, very different world now.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

I think you would have to agree that we live in a very, very different world now.

We still live in a world where to openly rebel against the leader at a time of national crisis would work negatively against the opposition among the people as a whole. It'd be a disaster for Starmer.

 

[Astute]

The Conservatives know how to win elections, and they’d be going in for the kill right now if it was Labour in charge, exactly as any opposition with intentions to take over should be doing. In 5 years nobody will remember that they kept quiet during this crisis, but they would remember if Labour were currently pointing out all the disasters and asking “where is the PM?”

So can you explain what the use will be when there will be no reply. A few more days in a 5 year period won't make any difference.

Why play into the hands of a scheming Tory?

Just look at G. That shows what talking to a Tory is like. It needs to be in a situation where the questions can be pushed to the maximum and not down to the media that has Tory bias.

 

[shmmeee]

tbf, I'm game for a bit of that. I may be rather differently aligned to Steve politically, but there are times when I have a reasonably good day, and can be guaranteed that this thread is the ideal thing to puncture any positivity and make me feeling the lowest of the low! coventrian shopuldn't be banned just because he offers some righty bigoty relief from it all!

(This also, incidentally, shows why it would be folly for Starmer to go after the government completely at this present stage. There'll be time enough for inquests later, but nobody wants to be the Banquo at the banquet)

Yeah agreed. Been having this argument with Corbynites. Point is that it doesn’t actually mean a good job is being done, just standard psychological effect. The data tells us we aren’t doing a great job so far but we really can’t tell until it’s all over.

 

[Ian1779]

The Conservatives know how to win elections, and they’d be going in for the kill right now if it was Labour in charge, exactly as any opposition with intentions to take over should be doing. In 5 years nobody will remember that they kept quiet during this crisis, but they would remember if Labour were currently pointing out all the disasters and asking “where is the PM?”

if you want to be seen as the party of leadership, show some strength ffs

Cameron spent 2 years building a narrative that Labour caused the financial crisis....

 

[CCFCSteve]

I am looking at it objectively and what I see is a hiding PM, health workers about to be dressed in bin bags & gardening clothes, lies about testing & PPE, a health minister utterly out of his depth- the list is endless. I see no benefit whatsoever in pretending everything is superb, and I also note the bog-standard response of “yeah but look at them!”, bit pathetic really.

Being positive is a state of mind, it is not telling everyone lies that a pile of shit is actually a gold medal.

I never said pretend everything is superb, it isn’t, we know that.

I know Johnson has his faults and I find myself defending someone I’m not a massive admirer of because I can’t see how on earth you say ‘he’s in hiding’. In the past he was fair game for disappearing acts but not currently.

 

[Astute]

We still live in a world where to openly rebel against the leader at a time of national crisis would work negatively against the opposition among the people as a whole. It'd be a disaster for Starmer.

Questions about the virus should be OK but not personal attacks. No harm in PPE questions or what the end game is as people want to know. This includes Tory voters.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

what I see is a hiding PM

I do find this very, very poor form I have to say. He's been ill and is recuperating, there's no reason to doubt that.

I don't really want to bring myself, my family, or my friends into this, but I know of someone who had a cough, seemed to be over it, then collapsed with a coughing fit. Was rushed to hospital, was put on oxygen for a couple of days where he stabilised, improved day 3, and was sent home as soon as they could because they needed the bed back... and he certainly wouldn't have had access to the post hospital care that the prime minister has.

All this kind of thing does is water down any argument about capabilities or otherwise of the government, as it makes it look like it's personal.

 

[shmmeee]

The Conservatives know how to win elections, and they’d be going in for the kill right now if it was Labour in charge, exactly as any opposition with intentions to take over should be doing. In 5 years nobody will remember that they kept quiet during this crisis, but they would remember if Labour were currently pointing out all the disasters and asking “where is the PM?”

if you want to be seen as the party of leadership, show some strength ffs

Have a read of this, Cameron’s Tory Party Conference speech (so already as partisan as it gets) in 2008 in the middle of the GFC. Note the “we will work with government”.

Conservative conference: David Cameron's speech in full

 

[Ring Of Steel]

We still live in a world where to openly rebel against the leader at a time of national crisis would work negatively against the opposition among the people as a whole. It'd be a disaster for Starmer.

I would respectfully massively disagree. They’re not rebelling, he’s not their leader. Where is the PM? Is it not a pertinent question to ask? To be honest I’d find it hard to vote for anyone who stood by silently while healthcare workers were dying as a direct consequence of what the opposition were doing. We all know what’s going to happen, the Conservatives will manipulate this into a heroic triumph over the next few years, and Labour are going to get trampled all over again by ‘playing nice guy’

The right questions asked in the right way- as should be the case in a democracy such as ours- that’s a winner. Standing idly by will kill them before they’ve started.

 

[Ring Of Steel]

Have a read of this, Cameron’s Tory Party Conference speech (so already as partisan as it gets) in 2008 in the middle of the GFC. Note the “we will work with government”.

Conservative conference: David Cameron's speech in full

Has Starmer done anything similar? I have not been following him at all

 

[shmmeee]

I do find this very, very poor form I have to say. He's been ill and is recuperating, there's no reason to doubt that.

I don't really want to bring myself, my family, or my friends into this, but I know of someone who had a cough, seemed to be over it, then collapsed with a coughing fit. Was rushed to hospital, was put on oxygen for a couple of days where he stabilised, improved day 3, and was sent home as soon as they could because they needed the bed back... and he certainly wouldn't have had access to the post hospital care that the prime minister has.

All this kind of thing does is water down any argument about capabilities or otherwise of the government, as it makes it look like it's personal.

While I sort of agree, Johnson does have form for hiding himself and his other less serious cabinet members when times get tough. I don’t think that’s what’s happening here though.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

While I sort of agree, Johnson does have form for hiding himself and his other less serious cabinet members when times get tough. I don’t think that’s what’s happening here though.

He does, and while I'd have a certain appreciation for the boy who cried wolf argument, there's absolutely nothing to suggest that here.

Let's face it, given some of the people being wheeled out atm, even Johnson would come across well!

 

[Ring Of Steel]

I do find this very, very poor form I have to say. He's been ill and is recuperating, there's no reason to doubt that.

I don't really want to bring myself, my family, or my friends into this, but I know of someone who had a cough, seemed to be over it, then collapsed with a coughing fit. Was rushed to hospital, was put on oxygen for a couple of days where he stabilised, improved day 3, and was sent home as soon as they could because they needed the bed back... and he certainly wouldn't have had access to the post hospital care that the prime minister has.

All this kind of thing does is water down any argument about capabilities or otherwise of the government, as it makes it look like it's personal.

When you have a government which repeatedly promises to look after people, but actually it turns out to be lies and they go ahead and do things that cause people’s deaths, yeah I’d say some people would take that personally. The arguments about capabilities are a different thing to arguments about whether someone has compassion. It’s his government, he picked them- look at the shower of shit paraded out each day, they are completely useless. I still don’t see how saying that makes anyone an uncaring bastard.

 

[Grendel]

Attlee won by making sure he was in the same cabinet as Churchill.

Spot on. Foot of course made one of his best speeches in Parliament and then was slaughtered by his own militant activists

 

[Ring Of Steel]

Cameron spent 2 years building a narrative that Labour caused the financial crisis....

And he won. They’re all playing a game, the Conservatives play it a lot better. They will do whatever it takes.

 

[PVA]

Let's face it, given some of the people being wheeled out atm, even Johnson would come across well!

But that's probably the point. Send out all the lackeys while the figures are awful and then wheel out Boris the great saviour when the number of deaths start dropping.

 

[Grendel]

I think you would have to agree that we live in a very, very different world now.

Not really Foot tried to do the same in the early 80’s

 

[Ring Of Steel]

Not really Foot tried to do the same in the early 80’s

Which is 40 years ago

 

[Deleted member 5849]

But that's probably the point. Send out all the lackeys while the figures are awful and then wheel out Boris the great saviour when the number of deaths start dropping.

Or alternatively, and here's a radical thought, but he really has been ill and it's pretty tasteless to go full-on conspiracy.

 

[shmmeee]

Has Starmer done anything similar? I have not been following him at all

Focused on PPE and exit strategy at the moment.

I think the time to strike as it were is when the final death toll is in and we can easily say “we are the worst in Europe” (which I expect us to be) or whatever.

Right now attacking a sick leader in the middle of crisis would only back fire.

 

[Ring Of Steel]

But that's probably the point. Send out all the lackeys while the figures are awful and then wheel out Boris the great saviour when the number of deaths start dropping.

I guess we’ll see soon enough.

 

[Grendel]

Which is 40 years ago

Makes no odds. Attack the government in wartime (which this is) and he is finished as a leader of the opposition

 

[Ring Of Steel]

Focused on PPE and exit strategy at the moment.

I think the time to strike as it were is when the final death toll is in and we can easily say “we are the worst in Europe” (which I expect us to be) or whatever.

Right now attacking a sick leader in the middle of crisis would only back fire.

That makes sense. But if they don’t then they’re daft. If they want to have a prayer they need to capitalise, just as the Conservatives would with great aplomb.