Coronavirus Thread (Off Topic, Politics) (127 Viewers)

[tisza]

On a more positive note. My adopted daughter was allowed to reopen her stationery shop yesterday in Vienna after nearly 2 months closed.
Had people in buying something (not necessarily things they needed) just to show their support for a small local business even though money is tight.

 

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[tisza]

Are they testing everybody who dies over there or are they guessing like here?

If this is for me then answer is no.
One of the worst testing records in Europe.
Those that die on ventilator counted. Home deaths, non-hospital deaths not included. Don't have the autopsy facilities available here.
Govt keeping numbers low enough to justify their actions. Neighbour is a doctor who says numbers higher but new law is only Govt can release data/info or speak to media.

 

[Sick Boy]

We're scheduled to start easing from May 4 but still going to be significant controls in place.
Early lockdown and people generally respecting it has kept things under control. Seemingly over 50% of deaths from retirement homes.
From here UK govt actions being questioned but also much being made of behaviour of people particularly in run up to lockdown there.

Yeah, the enforcement and people obeying it seem to have really helped things along here. There's been surprise here about images and videos of how many people are out and about walking round in the UK, it's a very sharp contrast to how it's been here.
I think Serie A teams start training again from either the 4th or 11th as well.

 

[Nick]

A doctor diagnosing something isn’t a “guess”

In which case what's the big fuss about testing if a doctor can just diagnose it?

People are obsessing about numbers and stats every day, they are hardly accurate and I am sure there's a massive drop in deaths from other things.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

In which case what's the big fuss about testing if a doctor can just diagnose it?

People are obsessing about numbers and stats every day, they are hardly accurate and I am sure there's a massive drop in deaths from other things.

The overall death figures are up though - that's an absolute.

 

[Nick]

The overall death figures are up though - that's an absolute.

It still doesn't mean that the Corona deaths are accurate if people who die are instantly being classed as CovID.

How many less are dying of other things now?

 

[Deleted member 5849]

It still doesn't mean that the Corona deaths are accurate if people who die are instantly being classed as CovID.

It's safe to say it's had a large effect on deaths.

 

[Nick]

It's safe to say it's had a large effect on deaths.

It will do if people dying of heart attacks of cancer are classed as dying from Corona.

 

[skybluetony176]

It will do if people dying of heart attacks of cancer are classed as dying from Corona.

Getting pneumonia for any reason let alone Covid 19 puts an amazing amount of pressure on the heart for many reasons and if you die of a heart attack brought on by pneumonia as far as I understand in that case the cause of death is what caused the pneumonia as the heart attack is a side effect of pneumonia and the pneumonia is a side effect of something else. In these cases Covid 19. It’s a very simple trail, no Covid 19 = no pneumonia = no heart attack therefore the cause of death can only be Covid 19. Same with cancer, if you die prematurely while having Covid 19 whether your cancer is terminal or not the cause of death is Covid 19.
Doctors are qualified to make these calls.

 

[Nick]

Getting pneumonia for any reason let alone Covid 19 puts an amazing amount of pressure on the heart for many reasons and if you die of a heart attack brought on by pneumonia as far as I understand in that case the cause of death is what caused the pneumonia as the heart attack is a side effect of pneumonia and the pneumonia is a side effect of something else. In these cases Covid 19. It’s a very simple trail, no Covid 19 = no pneumonia = no heart attack therefore the cause of death can only be Covid 19. Same with cancer, if you die prematurely while having Covid 19 whether your cancer is terminal or not the cause of death is Covid 19.
Doctors are qualified to make these calls.

Is that like the young lad who died in Coventry of COVID but the doctor openly said it wasn't because of COVID?

Is every single person having a coroner investigation to see what it was?

This is what makes the statistics and comparing to other countries pointless.

 

[tisza]

Getting pneumonia for any reason let alone Covid 19 puts an amazing amount of pressure on the heart for many reasons and if you die of a heart attack brought on by pneumonia as far as I understand in that case the cause of death is what caused the pneumonia as the heart attack is a side effect of pneumonia and the pneumonia is a side effect of something else. In these cases Covid 19. It’s a very simple trail, no Covid 19 = no pneumonia = no heart attack therefore the cause of death can only be Covid 19. Same with cancer, if you die prematurely while having Covid 19 whether your cancer is terminal or not the cause of death is Covid 19.
Doctors are qualified to make these calls.

one of the accusations pointed at Russia was the comparatively large numbers of deaths (yr on yr) attributed to pneumonia in Moscow in December and January.

 

[skybluetony176]

Is that like the young lad who died in Coventry of COVID but the doctor openly said it wasn't because of COVID?

Is every single person having a coroner investigation to see what it was?

That would take capacity in the coroner’s office, I doubt there is though. You’re taking one single case and broad stroking it by the sound of it. At the end of the day heart attack is a long known side effect of pneumonia and pneumonia is always I think a side effect of something else, the doctors have seen enough Covid 19 now to diagnose it so why don’t you try putting a little faith in them. They’ve earned that significantly more than they’ve earned your cynicism.

 

[djr8369]

If that really is the case though - no immunity - then what realistically are the options

Adapt life around it and test and trace as much as possible I guess.


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[Nick]

That would take capacity in the coroner’s office, I doubt there is though. You’re taking one single case and broad stroking it by the sound of it. At the end of the day heart attack is a long known side effect of pneumonia and pneumonia is always I think a side effect of something else, the doctors have seen enough Covid 19 now to diagnose it so why don’t you try putting a little faith in them. They’ve earned that significantly more than they’ve earned your cynicism.

That was one case locally and was in the local media.

So again, what's the issue with testing if doctors can just diagnose it when there are symptoms and differentiate it from anything else?

To compare death counts etc then surely every country must be using the same process to decide on causes of death? It's pointless people here put down as dying of Corona when they may not even have it when in a different country the stats are different.

 

[fernandopartridge]

In which case what's the big fuss about testing if a doctor can just diagnose it?

People are obsessing about numbers and stats every day, they are hardly accurate and I am sure there's a massive drop in deaths from other things.

It's all published Nick, there isn't a massive drop in deaths from other things - they are on the increase as well as the NHS is stretch to its limits:

The provisional number of deaths registered in England and Wales in the week ending 10 April 2020 (Week 15) was 18,516; this represents an increase of 2,129 deaths registered compared with the previous week (Week 14), is 7,996 deaths more than the five-year average and is the highest weekly total since Week 1 in 2000

 

[djr8369]

It’s bound to be very low and though I’m not in anyway a conspiracy theorist I do think the deaths versus lockdown actions do not match up and you do wonder if the immunity issue is causing these actions

There is some correlation between lockdown actions, that’s clear based on how the curve has changed in countries who have implemented it, but I’d agree with you to an extent in that the correlation is not as strong as you might expect so there are clearly a lot of other factors going on.


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[fernandopartridge]

That was one case locally and was in the local media.

So again, what's the issue with testing if doctors can just diagnose it when there are symptoms and differentiate it from anything else?

Because you're talking about two different things, one is doctors putting COVID on a deceased person's death certificate, the other is about testing people who are walking about.

 

[Nick]

It's all published Nick, there isn't a massive drop in deaths from other things - they are on the increase as well as the NHS is stretch to its limits:

Tiktok dances are on the rise as well as the god complex with some NHS staff.

How many people are in the purpose built Nightingale hospitals? Why not fill them up and let normal hospitals deal with more cancer patients.

If a cancer patient dies because people in the NHS are focusing on Corona, is that a Corona death?

 

[CCFCSteve]

Adapt life around it and test and trace as much as possible I guess.


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I think that’s all we can do for the time being djr, together with developing as good a treatment as possible as BSB mentioned yesterday

If the potential new NHS app is finalised and released it will also massively help with tracing and tracking by the sounds of it.

ps I’ll avoid getting into the standard partisan ‘Boris back at work now the virus has peaked’ and ‘Tories ending lock down for their donors/own ideology’ debates as I’m all typed out after yesterday’s rant but let’s just say looking at the conflicting arguments/comments the government and Johnson can’t win either way

 

[Nick]

Because you're talking about two different things, one is doctors putting COVID on a deceased person's death certificate, the other is about testing people who are walking about.

How do they know it's a COVID death though if they aren't tested? Yes, they can hazard a good guess but what would have been Dementia last year might be COVID this year.

 

[fernandopartridge]

Tiktok dances are on the rise as well as the god complex with some NHS staff.

How many people are in the purpose built Nightingale hospitals? Why not fill them up and let normal hospitals deal with more cancer patients.

If a cancer patient dies because people in the NHS are focusing on Corona, is that a Corona death?

In principle I don't disagree but the Nightingale's are not fit for very seriously ill patients, no access to any of the necessary hospital services. Also, there are no extra staff in any case, staff have been redrafted to deal with COVID.

 

[djr8369]

With Johnson back to 'work', it's becoming pretty clear there is a big push to get the economic pawns back to work asap regardless of the risk of death or serious illness. The Torygraph pushing misleading polls stating people want lockdown to end unconditionally, lots of air time given to cranks like Toby Young. Now the mass morgues are in place Plan A can be pursued once again.

I'm not sure if it is just being ignored that we're adding on 4k plus cases per day (and that's just diagnosed ones). I genuinely think we'll go to 100k+ excess deaths from this.

Libertarians pushing opening up economy hard, same as in America. The next few months is going to be a battle between rationality and the wider good vs libertarian think tanks loaded with cash (when was it ever any different).


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[Nick]

In principle I don't disagree but the Nightingale's are not fit for very seriously ill patients, no access to any of the necessary hospital services. Also, there are no extra staff in any case, staff have been redrafted to deal with COVID.

What's the point in them then?

I thought the idea was to have COVID people in those especially to take the load off normal hospitals?

 

[SkyBlueCRJ]

In principle I don't disagree but the Nightingale's are not fit for very seriously ill patients, no access to any of the necessary hospital services. Also, there are no extra staff in any case, staff have been redrafted to deal with COVID.

Yeah they were never even supposed to be built for the seriously ill were they? I think from the outset the Birmingham Nightingale Hospital in particular was always devised as a step-down facility, so it would accept patients who had recovered sufficiently from coronavirus or who were not suitable for ventilation. Realistically they're the equivalent of an overflow carpark.

 

[Nick]

Yeah they were never even supposed to be built for the seriously ill were they? I think from the outset the Birmingham Nightingale Hospital in particular was always devised as a step-down facility, so it would accept patients who had recovered sufficiently from coronavirus or who were not suitable for ventilation. Realistically they're the equivalent of an overflow carpark.

That makes sense as if they are over the worst of it or not going to die they can be shipped out to those to free up beds for seriously ill patients.

Isn't the Birmingham one sat empty though? Does that mean there are no people who have it but aren't seriously ill? It's the same as the emergency mortuary there, are they dumping thousands of bodies there like something from a genocide? That's what it sounded like they were for (just the sheer amount of bodies, not the genocide) which has panicked people.

 

[fernandopartridge]

How do they know it's a COVID death though if they aren't tested? Yes, they can hazard a good guess but what would have been Dementia last year might be COVID this year.

It isn't a good guess is it? They will still base on it on the symptoms of the deceased.

Death certificates have more than one reason on you know as there is often no single cause of death.

 

[fernandopartridge]

Yeah they were never even supposed to be built for the seriously ill were they? I think from the outset the Birmingham Nightingale Hospital in particular was always devised as a step-down facility, so it would accept patients who had recovered sufficiently from coronavirus or who were not suitable for ventilation. Realistically they're the equivalent of an overflow carpark.

Yeah, Manchester is step down from ICU, either to rehabilitate or palliate.

I think the London one has a bit more ICU capability but I'm really not sure how it would operate.

 

[Nick]

It isn't a good guess is it? They will still base on it on the symptoms of the deceased.

Death certificates have more than one reason on you know as there is often no single cause of death.

Yes but that's what I mean, last year a death could have been dementia but this year it's COVID. It could have been normal flu that killed somebody a few months ago but now it's COVID.

Unless people are tested, how can they differentiate? If they can 100% diagnose then why do they test people with symptoms?

Obviously there isn't the resources and time to test everybody that dies which is why it's never going to be 100% accurate.

 

[SkyBlueDom26]

Brilliant speech by Boris, great way to boost the countries morale throughout this awful emergency! So glad he’s back

 

[Deleted member 5849]

This is interesting.

How NZ's 'team of five million' took on Covid-19

 

[SkyBlueCRJ]

That makes sense as if they are over the worst of it or not going to die they can be shipped out to those to free up beds for seriously ill patients.

Isn't the Birmingham one sat empty though? Does that mean there are no people who have it but aren't seriously ill? It's the same as the emergency mortuary there, are they dumping thousands of bodies there like something from a genocide? That's what it sounded like they were for (just the sheer amount of bodies, not the genocide) which has panicked people.

The Birmingham one hasn't had a single patient yet apparently.

I think the mortuary was built to support funeral directors as they only have so much capacity in their own designated mortuaries. This was identified quickly by the government as a potential problem down the line as if there was a huge influx of deaths then where would the bodies be stored? Otherwise it's likely they'd have to resort to basically what they're doing in New York for the poor - but on a larger scale - by digging mass graves and burying the dead quickly in order to cope with the amount of deaths.

But yeah it panicked people and rightly so as it was a probable scenario if Johnson hadn't reluctantly agreed to implement the measures we're currently under.

 

[Nick]

The Birmingham one hasn't had a single patient yet apparently.

I think the mortuary was built to support funeral directors as they only have so much capacity in their own designated mortuaries. This was identified quickly by the government as a potential problem down the line as if there was a huge influx of deaths then where would the bodies be stored? Otherwise it's likely they'd have to resort to basically what they're doing in New York for the poor - but on a larger scale - by digging mass graves and burying the dead quickly in order to cope with the amount of deaths.

But yeah it panicked people and rightly so as it was a probable scenario if Johnson hadn't reluctantly agreed to implement the measures we're currently under.

In that way it's ok good to have it there just in case but why not use it anyway? If somebody has covid but isn't going to die, send them there as a halfway house before they go home and free up a bed.

 

[Nick]

Brilliant speech by Boris, great way to boost the countries morale throughout this awful emergency! So glad he’s back

I haven't heard it but he isn't going to shag you.

 

[SkyBlueDom26]

I haven't heard it but he isn't going to shag you.

Yeah alright nick, you expecting some sort of prize for revealing how funny you are?

 

[chiefdave]

Brilliant speech by Boris, great way to boost the countries morale throughout this awful emergency! So glad he’s back

You must have just watched something very different to what was on my TV.