Coronavirus Thread (Off Topic, Politics) (50 Viewers)

Walsgrave · Aug 17, 2020

David O'Day said:
Also kids who wanted to study to be a doctor are in trouble as these places are capped by the DHSC and Oxbridge colleges just don't have the capacity to take many people in.

You also have to take into account the issues with social distancing and you can see that a lot of these kids that have lost places are in the shit

Which was my original point about competition for places at for instance, Medical Schools and top universities will have only limited places. This year's cohort in the aggregate have had grades massively over-predicted at the top end.

A lot of students who get their teacher assessed grades this year who would otherwise not have performed as well in an examination cycle will have their competitiveness level artificially inflated. They may then decide to 'take a punt' and apply to what they perceive as a more prestigious place next year, instead of taking up a place at their university this year.

So the only way to square this next year would be for Medical schools, Oxbridge etc to allocate the same proportion of places to 'reapplicants' as they would in any ordinary year, lest we end up with a situation where there are too many over-qualified candidates who picked up their 'exam results' this year getting places at the expense of more able students next year. Interviews could help with this.

David O'Day · Aug 17, 2020

Walsgrave said:
Which was my original point about competition for places at for instance, Medical Schools and top universities will have only limited places. This year's cohort in the aggregate have had grades massively over-predicted at the top end.

A lot of students who get their teacher assessed grades this year who would otherwise not have performed as well in an examination cycle will have their competitiveness level artificially inflated. So the only way to square this next year would be for Medical schools, Oxbridge etc to allocate the same proportion of places to 'reapplicants' as they would in any ordinary year, lest we end up with a situation where there are too many over-qualified candidates who picked up their 'exam results' this year getting places at the expense of more able students next year. Interviews could help with this.

[/QUOTE]

I'm okay with that as it's far more morally right than have kids from poorer backgrounds punished for those back grounds.

Top unis already interview

Brighton Sky Blue · Aug 17, 2020

Walsgrave said:
This will screw over competent students from next year who will have missed months of teaching and also have to take the exams. I'm all for the concessions but the grades from this 2020 cohort must be presented to employers in future as a 'teacher predicted' grade and only that. Also disadvantages the genuinely able from this year's cohort who won't be able to differentiate themselves.

There's going to be serious implications for comparability as lots of students will reapply in an attempt to get into a 'better' university.

To help with my planning I’ve been told that huge chunks of the syllabus have been removed to mitigate the Covid disruption. So students won’t leave having covered all they should have. To be honest I’m still freaking out about how to teach a practical subject with minimal laboratory access

Brighton Sky Blue · Aug 17, 2020

Ian1779 said:
This is a side effect of this change. It will create some problems - significantly less than before but I’m sure your rationale will have been spot on.

I’m thinking more in terms of receiving waves of parental complaints and queries-it puts us in an impossible position

Ian1779 · Aug 17, 2020

Brighton Sky Blue said:
I’m thinking more in terms of receiving waves of parental complaints and queries-it puts us in an impossible position

Parents/students have to go through a subject access request if they want to challenge a grade we’ve given them. To be fair your HOD should be the one to deal with this as they would have signed off your grades so it’s on them now.

LastGarrison · Aug 17, 2020

David O'Day said:
No one is going to release into clearing as all the places have been taken and how to do you get a more preferred univewrsity than your first choice?

Removing the cap does free up more places but these places aren't unlimited as all they are likely to be is UK students replacing international students who don't come. Universities will still have a finite amount of kids they can teach a year.

All the places haven’t been taken and even some of the Russell Groups are struggling to fill their places.

The option is now there for the students to contact universities to see if there are opportunities to ‘trade up’. Plus students may not have chose X university as their firm as they felt the conditions of their offer were unachievable yet in clearing universities lower these, some by a lot, giving students a better chance.

The cap was introduced to try and help out some of the smaller or lower ranked universities losing their students to higher ranked universities attempting to recruit as many students as possible due to a number of universities being in precarious positions financially (between 25 and 30 I hear). Lifting the cap now, after the OFS taking such a hard line, would be laughable and potentially see the demise of numerous universities.

Obviously places will depend on the physical space universities have but believe me if universities have an opportunity to over recruit this year they definitely will.

With regards to international students many are still planning to come to the UK but naturally this is going to be a lot lower this year and particularly from key markets such as China, Hong Kong, Nigeria etc for obvious reasons.

David O'Day · Aug 17, 2020

LastGarrison said:
All the places haven’t been taken and even some of the Russell Groups are struggling to fill their places.

The option is now there for the students to contact universities to see if there are opportunities to ‘trade up’. Plus students may not have chose X university as their firm as they felt the conditions of their offer were unachievable yet in clearing universities lower these, some by a lot, giving students a better chance.

The cap was introduced to try and help out some of the smaller or lower ranked universities losing their students to higher ranked universities attempting to recruit as many students as possible due to a number of universities being in precarious positions financially (between 25 and 30 I hear). Lifting the cap now, after the OFS taking such a hard line, would be laughable and potentially see the demise of numerous universities.

Obviously places will depend on the physical space universities have but believe me if universities have an opportunity to over recruit this year they definitely will.

With regards to international students many are still planning to come to the UK but naturally this is going to be a lot lower this year and particularly from key markets such as China, Hong Kong, Nigeria etc for obvious reasons.

most places have been taken already but you know better than the education experts

bye

fernandopartridge · Aug 17, 2020

David O'Day said:
most places have been taken already but you know better than the education experts

bye

In fairness to LG given what he does I would suggest he knows quite a bit

David O'Day · Aug 18, 2020

fernandopartridge said:
In fairness to LG given what he does I would suggest he knows quite a bit

in fairness the news is full of "too many students, not enough places" so I'll take the words of the many over someone who I can can see wants to prove he is right.

My Cousin works in admissions and they don't have enough space for everyone.

David O'Day · Aug 18, 2020

Also as universities UK said it's just far too late for a lot of universities to upscale to meet demand

David O'Day · Aug 18, 2020

Not all UK students will get first-choice place, universities warn

Vice-chancellors say despite government U-turn, it will not be possible to honour all original offers

www.theguardian.com

shmmeee · Aug 18, 2020

Ian1779 said:
It does matter I know, I just find it sickening to see it exploited.

It is exploited. Farage doesn’t give a shit about Britain, he’s probably made a mint betting against it and just sees the working class as a cash machine like Yaxley-Lennon does.

But they’re only able to do it because they’re the only gig in town. The left abandoned the things that working class people care about then whined when then right picked them up. If you want people to have a choice of voting for patriots who don’t use it like that then you have to offer that choice.

If you’re like most of the people I grew up with the only party close to your personal values are the Tories and these are all traditional Labour voters.

wingy · Aug 18, 2020

It'd be revealing to know the extent to which the message of "don't overload the NHS" , specifically in relation to Covid and other conditions individually,lead to poor outcomes.

NHS coronavirus triage hotline stops nurses handling calls over safety fears

Exclusive: Nursing and non-medical staff stopped from taking calls after more than half of those audited were unsafe

www.independent.co.uk

shmmeee · Aug 18, 2020

Brighton Sky Blue said:
The truth is that if a decision seems unpopular they reverse it and that forms the basis of how they govern. Now he has done something that will tell all of my students what grade I thought they should get.

Weren’t they centre assessed? Was there no standardisation and moderation process?

Saddlebrains · Aug 18, 2020

Well this isn't annoying

fernandopartridge · Aug 18, 2020

Saddlebrains said:
Well this isn't annoying

From wet markets to wet nightclubs

shmmeee · Aug 18, 2020

Am I the only one that wants to go to a water park rave now? And I can’t swim or dance.

fernandopartridge · Aug 18, 2020

wingy said:
It'd be revealing to know the extent to which the message of "don't overload the NHS" , specifically in relation to Covid and other conditions individually,lead to poor outcomes.

NHS coronavirus triage hotline stops nurses handling calls over safety fears

Exclusive: Nursing and non-medical staff stopped from taking calls after more than half of those audited were unsafe

www.independent.co.uk

The excess deaths at home figure remains high even where the death in hospital figure has fallen, think that tells a story

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Aug 18, 2020

shmmeee said:
Loads of kids do that. What next? Stop kids playing in the CCFC academy from taking PE?

Girl I went to primary with moved to Germany for about 5 years. Came back and saw her in 6th form and she was doing German A level. Don't think she had to bother going to lessons other than to find out about exam structure etc.

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Aug 18, 2020

David O'Day said:
Dido Harding to run agency replacing Public Health England

Tory peer has been widely criticised over responsibility for England’s test-and-trace system

www.theguardian.com

Did someone say something about being promoted over your ability level?

"PHE needs disbanding as it's useless"
"who shall we get to oversee it's replacement"
"Dido Harding?"
"Hasn't she been in charge of the monumental fuck-up that is track and trace?"
"yeah, but she's one of us"
"Well that's that decided then"

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Aug 18, 2020

David O'Day said:
Dido Harding to run agency replacing Public Health England

Tory peer has been widely criticised over responsibility for England’s test-and-trace system

www.theguardian.com

Did someone say something about being promoted over your ability level?

Something else to be mindful of.

She wants the NHS to be turned into a US style insurance based system. Just as we're going into negotiations with the US in which opening up the NHS is widely believed to be part of the deal.

shmmeee · Aug 18, 2020

Sky_Blue_Dreamer said:
Girl I went to primary with moved to Germany for about 5 years. Came back and saw her in 6th form and she was doing German A level. Don't think she had to bother going to lessons other than to find out about exam structure etc.

I hate a mate who did Urdu GCSE at school. Why not recognise talents TBH? I walked through Computing because I practiced it at home from an early age. Ditto my sister and Dance.

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Aug 18, 2020

shmmeee said:
Am I the only one that wants to go to a water park rave now? And I can’t swim or dance.

Just jump in the pool and the thrashing about will look like most people's dancing at raves anyway.

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Aug 18, 2020

Walsgrave said:
Which was my original point about competition for places at for instance, Medical Schools and top universities will have only limited places. This year's cohort in the aggregate have had grades massively over-predicted at the top end.

A lot of students who get their teacher assessed grades this year who would otherwise not have performed as well in an examination cycle will have their competitiveness level artificially inflated. They may then decide to 'take a punt' and apply to what they perceive as a more prestigious place next year, instead of taking up a place at their university this year.

So the only way to square this next year would be for Medical schools, Oxbridge etc to allocate the same proportion of places to 'reapplicants' as they would in any ordinary year, lest we end up with a situation where there are too many over-qualified candidates who picked up their 'exam results' this year getting places at the expense of more able students next year. Interviews could help with this.

I was thinking if a student missed out on their place this year many of them might reapply next year and have a gap year. With all the pandemic stuff next year might well be a difficult one to start uni with disrupted classes, accommodation etc.

Plus if the A levels students also suffer in terms of being able to be taught this year but have to sit the exams there may be a drop off in grades next year so this years kids upgraded results makes them more likely to get into a better uni.

Although I expect we're going to have a similar situation next year with kids wanting upgrading to reflect the disruption.

shmmeee · Aug 18, 2020

Sky_Blue_Dreamer said:
I was thinking if a student missed out on their place this year many of them might reapply next year and have a gap year. With all the pandemic stuff next year might well be a difficult one to start uni with disrupted classes, accommodation etc.

Plus if the A levels students also suffer in terms of being able to be taught this year but have to sit the exams there may be a drop off in grades next year so this years kids upgraded results makes them more likely to get into a better uni.

Although I expect we're going to have a similar situation next year with kids wanting upgrading to reflect the disruption.

Not sure a gap year in a huge recession with no global travel will work out too well TBF.

And yeah something will happen next year, kids have missed a term of prep and that’s going to show.

David O'Day · Aug 18, 2020

shmmeee said:
Not sure a gap year in a huge recession with no global travel will work out too well TBF.

And yeah something will happen next year, kids have missed a term of prep and that’s going to show.

Also a lot of the kids who would of been downgraded unfairly are from poorewr backgrounds so taking a year out whne there are no jobs for them is not really an option

Ian1779 · Aug 18, 2020

shmmeee said:
I hate a mate who did Urdu GCSE at school. Why not recognise talents TBH? I walked through Computing because I practiced it at home from an early age. Ditto my sister and Dance.

My school has about 40% EAL but I don’t think we do enough of it. However as the DFE don’t value ‘home language’ exams as they are only allowed to be in bucket 3 and can’t count in the EBACC schools decide it isn’t in the schools interest (never mind it being good for the kid)

Brighton Sky Blue · Aug 18, 2020

shmmeee said:
Weren’t they centre assessed? Was there no standardisation and moderation process?

In my case I gave a grade and then the students were ranked across the year by mock result and topic test average. It would still be perceived as ‘my’ choice

Brighton Sky Blue · Aug 18, 2020

shmmeee said:
Not sure a gap year in a huge recession with no global travel will work out too well TBF.

And yeah something will happen next year, kids have missed a term of prep and that’s going to show.

The syllabus has been chopped to accommodate this I believe

shmmeee · Aug 18, 2020

Brighton Sky Blue said:
In my case I gave a grade and then the students were ranked across the year by mock result and topic test average. It would still be perceived as ‘my’ choice

When you say ranked across the year do you mean like the OfQual algorithm, ie they decided how many of each grade “should” be awarded and then used the ranking to assign grades? Or something else?

Walsgrave · Aug 18, 2020

Sky_Blue_Dreamer said:
I was thinking if a student missed out on their place this year many of them might reapply next year and have a gap year. With all the pandemic stuff next year might well be a difficult one to start uni with disrupted classes, accommodation etc.

Plus if the A levels students also suffer in terms of being able to be taught this year but have to sit the exams there may be a drop off in grades next year so this years kids upgraded results makes them more likely to get into a better uni.

Although I expect we're going to have a similar situation next year with kids wanting upgrading to reflect the disruption.

The issue is that handing people the grades they want is a short term solution but it can cause real damage for all parties (including the people they were awarded to) in the long run. I'm sympathetic to the entire cohort of students who were not able to prove themselves in the last set of nationally standardised assessments they will take. It means that next year's cohort, who will have to prove themselves assuming the exams go ahead, are at a disadvantage.

The only way around this mess from a universities and employment point of view is to literally treat them as what they are i.e. teacher assessed grades. And that will create a lot of disparity when comparing across year groups. As a hypothetical admissions officer/employer, I know who I'd rather pick if I was faced with the choice between someone who had taken the exam and someone who was given a predicted grade. The worst thing about it is that it's not the students' faults either - they will happily accept their teacher predicted grade; without perhaps knowing what trouble it might store up in the future.

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Aug 18, 2020

shmmeee said:
Not sure a gap year in a huge recession with no global travel will work out too well TBF.

And yeah something will happen next year, kids have missed a term of prep and that’s going to show.

Not ideal, but if they used the year constructively to do some reading on their chosen subject they could use on the application the long term benefit would be much greater. Most kids that age will either be part time at a supermarket and/or living with parents so economic considerations wouldn't be massive. Especially compared to moving away, needing to pay for the tuition and accommodation which would require a job of some description or parental funding anyway.

shmmeee · Aug 18, 2020

Walsgrave said:
The issue is that handing people the grades they want is a short term solution but it can cause real damage for all parties (including the people they were awarded to) in the long run. I'm sympathetic to the entire cohort of students who were not able to prove themselves in the last set of nationally standardised assessments they will take. It means that next year's cohort, who will have to prove themselves assuming the exams go ahead, are at a disadvantage.

The only way around this mess from a universities and employment point of view is to literally treat them as what they are i.e. teacher assessed grades. And that will create a lot of disparity when comparing across year groups. As a hypothetical admissions officer/employer, I know who I'd rather pick if I was faced with the choice between someone who had taken the exam and someone who was given a predicted grade. The worst thing about it is that it's not the students' faults either - they will happily accept their teacher predicted grade; without perhaps knowing what trouble it might store up in the future.

Frankly the biggest danger to the system is a bunch of “unqualified” people get into courses and don’t immediately crash and burn and we have to look at how poor a judge of ability the whole thing is.

Private schools have been churning out kids with grades they didn’t earn for decades. Doesn’t do them any harm.

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Aug 18, 2020

David O'Day said:
Also a lot of the kids who would of been downgraded unfairly are from poorewr backgrounds so taking a year out whne there are no jobs for them is not really an option

Compared to finding tuition fees and paying for accommodation/food at uni as opposed to living at home? Also some will already have PT jobs at home in supermarkets. Moving away means either getting a transfer or finding a new job in this downturn. I think that'd be harder.

Brighton Sky Blue · Aug 18, 2020

shmmeee said:
When you say ranked across the year do you mean like the OfQual algorithm, ie they decided how many of each grade “should” be awarded and then used the ranking to assign grades? Or something else?

I mean in order of test average.

Coronavirus Thread (Off Topic, Politics) (50 Viewers)

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