Coronavirus Thread (Off Topic, Politics) (295 Viewers)

robbiekeane said:

It is common sense. What’s so hard to get your head around with it? Someone on Twitter tries to make out there’s loads of corruption going on and the big bad Tories gave business to their friends instead of the little guy, when actually it sounds like little guy wasn’t accredited and could offer 10% of the volume and the other option who was accredited?

Can you let me know which bit is a load of bollocks? I know you’re an angry man but if you can take a deep breath and have a go

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There is a load of corruption, and it’s intrinsic in the Tory government.

Remember last year when Chris Grayling gave a contract to a company involving ferry freight and they didn’t even own a fucking boat? Talk me through that one.
Even this week a company formed on a £100 bond by a ‘friend’ of someone in the Tory party gets a £100m+ contract to deliver PPE to the NHS. The capacity issue or accreditation argument does not stack up because THEY’VE NEVER DONE IT BEFORE...... unless of course you are agreeing they must have achieved accreditation by nefarious means.

I don’t suppose you even want to get into the Dido Harding discussion because you know so beyond the levels of normal corruption that you can’t spin in any way at all.

The Lurker said:

labour don’t offer any alternative to how it’s being handled

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Stop talking shite.

This is always the last resort of embarrassed Tory voters “well it wouldn’t be any different”. Fuck off. You may think this country is shite but I think it can do a lot better than these chancers.

Sky_Blue_Dreamer said:

They've already said the contract was never advertised so why would there be an audit process if there isn't a procurement one?

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An audit process by the accreditation body obviously

Sky_Blue_Dreamer said:

Under what evidence? Why would a new start-up be able to deliver to a scale an established provider with all the contacts couldn't do 10% of?

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Under the evidence that they said they could and I am going by the assumption that not everything is a big nasty conspiracy where people are lying all over the place. The tweets said one could do 500k a week and one could do 40k a week. That’s the evidence we are both presented with. If you’re making the leap that they’re just lying about anything and everything then that says something about your bias

12850 and 65 deaths

Not great for a Sunday

Skybluefaz said:

Doff your cap and tug your forlock for your boy Jenrick.

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Vile wankers

Ian1779 said:

There is a load of corruption, and it’s intrinsic in the Tory government.

Remember last year when Chris Grayling gave a contract to a company involving ferry freight and they didn’t even own a fucking boat? Talk me through that one.
Even this week a company formed on a £100 bond by a ‘friend’ of someone in the Tory party gets a £100m+ contract to deliver PPE to the NHS. The capacity issue or accreditation argument does not stack up because THEY’VE NEVER DONE IT BEFORE...... unless of course you are agreeing they must have achieved accreditation by nefarious means.

I don’t suppose you even want to get into the Dido Harding discussion because you know so beyond the levels of normal corruption that you can’t spin in any way at all.

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But this is exactly my point. You’re trying to make one really weak argument hold kore weight by referring to a load of other scandals which I haven’t said anything about. It’s a straw man argument.

Credibility is lost when you start trying to make something out of nothing (or at best, not present all of the facts), and that weakens credibility for genuine issues (which may or may not be the other things you’re now talking about)

Ian1779 said:

The capacity issue or accreditation argument does not stack up because THEY’VE NEVER DONE IT BEFORE...... unless of course you are agreeing they must have achieved accreditation by nefarious means.

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I’m sorry but I’m losing patience. Are you truly not understanding the point or are you just so blinded by hatred for a party that you are refusing to see it?

The company that was set up is an importing company. It’s not claiming to be some massive UK based factory producing gowns is it? It’s a company that is importing them from an accredited producer overseas. That is - the producer has the accreditation, the producer has the capacity, and whoever made the UK company has the hook up.

It’s beyond me that you can’t get your head around that, and so I can only conclude you’re deliberately just ignoring the obvious so suit your agenda

robbiekeane said:

I’m sorry but I’m losing patience. Are you truly not understanding the point or are you just so blinded by hatred for a party that you are refusing to see it?

The company that was set up is an importing company. It’s not claiming to be some massive UK based factory producing gowns is it? It’s a company that is importing them from an accredited producer overseas. That is - the producer has the accreditation, the producer has the capacity, and whoever made the UK company has the hook up.

It’s beyond me that you can’t get your head around that, and so I can only conclude you’re deliberately just ignoring the obvious so suit your agenda

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I see your point - but where we disagree is that you are prepared to believe that some (or all) of their dealings are legitimate. I can’t even see any evidence to support that conclusion.

Ian1779 said:

I see your point - but where we disagree is that you are prepared to believe that some (or all) of their dealings are legitimate. I can’t even see any evidence to support that conclusion.

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Is that how it works though mate? Do we just assume everything is illegitimate until proven otherwise? Shouldn’t it be the other way around

Talking about food banks, over here in the south we only have one in Arguineguin and they are closing it down later this month as the local council won't pay the rent for it. People have been on hunger strike for almost 2 weeks now outside of it.
They have had to start doing half shifts as the people who were doing it were passing out and ending up in hospital
Loads of donations by locals who can afford to give food but the council won't foot the bill anymore for the premises (a little disused building before it opened as a food bank).
People still not receiving any benefits (6 months on (including me)).
They were given a little pot of money at the start and it ran out months ago, they keep promising more but it all goes to the hotels etc for their staff not the normal man in the street.
The UK has got so much wrong, but they have helped financially to the man in the street so much more than in other places.
Places like Spain like to advertise that they have given so much help but in reality that money is not filtering down to the average person who needs it.
I'm working again but only earning about 114€ per week, that don't even cover the bills never mind food, replacing stock etc.
They have now even started taking out the tax payments they delayed during lockdown as they are trying to raise funds. I'm officially still closed as i can't afford to pay rent, tax owed, tax due, food, self employed tax etc.
Most places that have opened are now running this way, except for bar etc as they can't hide.
It's a mess all over the place, but benefit wise the UK seem to have done a lot better than most places.

There is a solid 40% in this country who back everything the Tories do. The increasingly fascist policies wash over them at best. Even somebody like G who claims to be a libertarian voted for them

Brighton Sky Blue said:

Explain to me how Labour flips over 120 seats at the next election then

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because the tories have failed on just about everything. Crime, people smuggling, Covid. Each year more people leave a left leaning education system and reaches voting age. Each year more and more people reach adulthood without the ability to function as such and will require the state to support them until the day they die. Tell me how there is any future for the Tory party?

robbiekeane said:

Under the evidence that they said they could and I am going by the assumption that not everything is a big nasty conspiracy where people are lying all over the place. The tweets said one could do 500k a week and one could do 40k a week. That’s the evidence we are both presented with. If you’re making the leap that they’re just lying about anything and everything then that says something about your bias

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Are you really that naive? The evidence is 'cos they say so'.

I can deliver 1m PPE a week. It's true because I've just said so. Or do you think someone should check my claim based on my past dealings of the quantity and quality delivered. Oh, you can't because I've only just set it up. What a shame. Guess you'll just have to take my word for it won't you.Now give me my money...

Or we can look at the previous contracts handed out.

You know, like the ones where they said they could get millions of PPE delivered revealed they were counting individual gloves as one piece of PPE, thus half of what people had been expecting to be delivered. (I expect this is part of the massive difference - they're again counting individual things rather than 'packs').

Or the one where they said the equipment was on the way from Turkey and it wasn't. And when it arrived it didn't meet standards and had to be binned. MILLIONS wasted. Was any of that money clawed back for the useless equipment? Was it fuck.

Or how about the millions given to the newly set up company to ferry things to and from Dover. The one that didn't have any boats. You'd think that'd be a standard thing to check before handing over millions of taxpayers money. Please explain how on earth they were going to even begin to meet the terms of the contract without any vessels?

Or the track and trace system that's cost more than anyone elses but barely works and runs off the most basic software that's totally unsuitable for the job at hand. And being overseen by someone linked to failures a normal person wouldn't be allowed near middle management. No advertising of the position, no interview process - just given to the person. Would you ever do that? I wouldn't. So you have to ask why they'd do it. And there's one bit of ingformation that stands out like a sore thumb.

It's got nothing to do with political bias. It's got everything to do with looking at evidence of what they've done before and applying that to the present. And that evidence is that they give massive amounts of money and important positions to donors and mates with little to no oversight.

It's not my bias making me see it, it's your bias refusing to let you see what's been happening for months right in front of your nose.

Sky_Blue_Dreamer said:

Are you really that naive? The evidence is 'cos they say so'.

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Their ability to meet the stated volume requirements was never even brought into question apart from by yourself? But this is something you are going after oddly. So you admit it then, we should assume that everything is a lie by any company or firm that has any connection to the conservatives?

Assuming we don’t think the same about the smaller company who offered 40k units a week though no, we believe that as a given?

Laughable

Macca said:

there is an endless list why labour will get in and subsequently stay in

failexon law and order
Failed on covid
Failed on people smuggling


because the tories have failed on just about everything. Crime, people smuggling, Covid. Each year more people leave a left leaning education system and reaches voting age. Each year more and more people reach adulthood without the ability to function as such and will require the state to support them until the day they die. Tell me how there is any future for the Tory party?

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Doesn't matter what you or I think, there are enough people in the country welded to a different perception.

robbiekeane said:

Under the evidence that they said they could and I am going by the assumption that not everything is a big nasty conspiracy where people are lying all over the place. The tweets said one could do 500k a week and one could do 40k a week. That’s the evidence we are both presented with. If you’re making the leap that they’re just lying about anything and everything then that says something about your bias

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they have literally lied about everything.
When they were doing the daily Covid briefings there was a provable lie in literal every briefing.
They lied about PPE, about testing, about returning people with Covid to care homes, it's fucking endless.

This government is fucking shite, they've mishandled the pandemic and used it as an excuse to syphon public money to their pals.

Macca said:

because the tories have failed on just about everything. Crime, people smuggling, Covid. Each year more people leave a left leaning education system and reaches voting age. Each year more and more people reach adulthood without the ability to function as such and will require the state to support them until the day they die. Tell me how there is any future for the Tory party?

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Look at people like keiran on this thread, there's millions of dumbasses who will vote them in again with a 3 word soundbite

Just so I've got this clear the argument being made is that the multiple existing UK based manufacturers and suppliers of PPE who say they have been unable to even get a response from the government leading to them sending their PPE overseas are all either making it up, can't supply product to the needed standard or can't supply product at all.

And on the flip side the multiple huge contracts awarded, with no tender process, to newly setup companies with no track record or expertise in dealing with PPE are all correct and justified. Presumably the issues that have subsequently been found with PPE not being of a useable standard when it arrived is just bad luck and the fact all these newly formed companies have links back to the government is just a coincidence?

robbiekeane said:

Their ability to meet the stated volume requirements was never even brought into question apart from by yourself? But this is something you are going after oddly. So you admit it then, we should assume that everything is a lie by any company or firm that has any connection to the conservatives?

Assuming we don’t think the same about the smaller company who offered 40k units a week though no, we believe that as a given?

Laughable

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No point even talking about it they all hate tory government, and are to thick to see otherwise just let them be I'm done talking politics here.

Kieranp96 said:

No point even talking about it they all hate tory government, and are to thick to see otherwise just let them be I'm done talking politics here.

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Or maybe your argument is as water tight as a sponge

robbiekeane said:

Their ability to meet the stated volume requirements was never even brought into question apart from by yourself? But this is something you are going after oddly. So you admit it then, we should assume that everything is a lie by any company or firm that has any connection to the conservatives?

Assuming we don’t think the same about the smaller company who offered 40k units a week though no, we believe that as a given?

Laughable

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So I'll ask again. What EVIDENCE is there that this company is able to meet their stated targets? There is none because the company has existed for all of five minutes. I have no idea if the other company could fulfil its claim, but at least it has a trading history and reputation that can be scrutinised to see what their level of procurement and reliability is as to whether it seems feasible.

I also ask again how come a new start up can deliver ten times more than an established supplier already with contacts with manufacturers etc? Does that not seem a little odd to you?

I will also remind you of the previous contracts to similar companies which were unfulfilled, late or unfit for purpose like the boat from Turkey. Plus the contracts for analysing the tests, which were given to private labs while there is some capacity within the NHS, that has never got close to the claimed turnaround capability even when fudging the figures to double count tests. Or the £12BN to private companies for a track and trace system that was supposed to be operational in March and is still barely working now and relying on archaic software wholly unsuitable for the function.

That's evidence. It's a modus operandi. Same reason I know Trump will have a twitter meltdown at some point early one morning because he's got a strong history of doing exactly that. You use the past to predict the future and the past shows they give massive contracts to people they know or who donate to the party who in general fuck it right up and fail to deliver on their promises.

chiefdave said:

Just so I've got this clear the argument being made is that the multiple existing UK based manufacturers and suppliers of PPE who say they have been unable to even get a response from the government leading to them sending their PPE overseas are all either making it up, can't supply product to the needed standard or can't supply product at all.

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Yes because the government are not going to go for a strategy of onboarding and setting up supply chain, logistics networks, payment terms, onboarding, etc., for ten companies when they can get the same volume with one company are they? So I am not suprised they didn't get a response. Do you know how many companies randomly email me every day asking to supply us with a whole range of things? I don't reply to anyone. I certainly wouldn't invite all of them to a tender process in a normal environment, never mind being in a global pandemic where you need stuff yesterday.

This is the company in this one example (which is the example I am talking about). It would appear that they specialise in beauty uniforms. It would also appear that they have recently expanded their own production facilities into Eastern Europe. Nothing wrong or uncommon with that, but it's not neccesarily a "UK based manufacturer".

The Team at Florence Roby are proud to call themselves UK manufacturers, but in recent years have also expanded their production processes in Eastern Europe. After a rigorous selection process, the team chose Eastern Europe for its excellent quality and ethical work practices.



Also, nobody said they couldn't supply product to the required standard, I just said they weren't accredited with the CE standard. I am not really sure how you an argue against that, and it was obviously a key part of the selection criteria (it may even be a legal requirement I have no idea).

chiefdave said:

And on the flip side the multiple huge contracts awarded, with no tender process, to newly setup companies with no track record or expertise in dealing with PPE are all correct and justified. Presumably the issues that have subsequently been found with PPE not being of a useable standard when it arrived is just bad luck and the fact all these newly formed companies have links back to the government is just a coincidence?

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Again, not surprised there's not a formal tender process and I believe that was quite publicly explained that there was no time. Those processes can take months. Clearly time was of the essence here. You say newly setup companies with no track record - how do you know that the manufacturer (after all, that's what's important rather than a middle man surely) has no track record or experience?

The point is you don't. But lets all jump on a tweet from some dickhead online and just automatically jump on the conservatives and call foul play and corruption. Really just makes people stop listening to actual areas of concern as and when they arise. That is my whole point

Sky_Blue_Dreamer said:

So I'll ask again. What EVIDENCE is there that this company is able to meet their stated targets? There is none because the company has existed for all of five minutes. I have no idea if the other company could fulfil its claim, but at least it has a trading history and reputation that can be scrutinised to see what their level of procurement and reliability is as to whether it seems feasible.

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What the fuck are you talking about? It's not guilty until proven innocent is it? What EVIDENCE (nice and shouty for you) is there than the other company is able to meet it's stated targets? Your argument is ridiculous. You have no idea about the MedPro producer and what their reputation or trading history is. You have no idea what the criteria was for the supplier selection.

Thank you for proving my point that a lot of people who are bitching and moaning about the conservative party at every opportunity are so blinded by their hatred that they have lost the ability to be objective.

The point is you don't know, and it would seem that nobhead on twitter either doesn't know (best case) or is deliberately misrepresenting the situation to get people frothing and fortunately for him people like you exist.

Fucks me off about politics in general - people on both sides are guilty of it and it just makes the whole thing the circus it is. The most credible politicians are those that are able to accept things on merit from both sides of the aisle and stay true to their views, but they are few and far between

robbiekeane said:

Under the evidence that they said they could and I am going by the assumption that not everything is a big nasty conspiracy where people are lying all over the place. The tweets said one could do 500k a week and one could do 40k a week. That’s the evidence we are both presented with. If you’re making the leap that they’re just lying about anything and everything then that says something about your bias

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You know fuck all about public procurement and the behaviour of ministers

robbiekeane said:

It is common sense. What’s so hard to get your head around with it? Someone on Twitter tries to make out there’s loads of corruption going on and the big bad Tories gave business to their friends instead of the little guy, when actually it sounds like little guy wasn’t accredited and could offer 10% of the volume and the other option who was accredited?

Can you let me know which bit is a load of bollocks? I know you’re an angry man but if you can take a deep breath and have a go

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No it's pure fucking speculation you have no actual proof about. Common sense my arse.

Kieranp96 said:

But that's a fact because it's not within your agenda you don't agree, common sense.

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Sorry did you drop a scrabble board there?

fernandopartridge said:

You know fuck all about public procurement and the behaviour of ministers

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There's a lot of things he knows fuck all about

Trying to work out how a new company with £200 in assets is more qualified than a long established PPE supplier to be awarded a £110M contract.

Did I imagine the infamous delivery from Turkey that sat on a runway for days so was about a week late and then when it did arrive it wasn’t fit for purpose? In the meantime PPE suppliers in the U.K. with impeccable track records in supply were sending PPE abroad because they weren’t the Tories mates.

Some people have very very selective memory.

David O'Day said:

No it's pure fucking speculation you have no actual proof about. Common sense my arse.

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Can you be more specific? So is the default to just assume someone is guilty of corruption or misallocation of public funds and everyone who says that might be somewhat of a stretch needs to provide immediate proof otherwise? Just trying to figure out the rules of tory bashing is all, lmk

skybluetony176 said:

Trying to work out how a new company with £200 in assets is more qualified than a long established PPE supplier to be awarded a £110M contract.

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Because they are importing from an accredited producer and obviously have significantly bigger volume commitments on offer than the "long established PPE supplier" (beauty gown supplier that is) who was able to offer 40k gowns per month. The awarded supplier was able to offer 25 million gowns per year.
Non story really

fernandopartridge said:

You know fuck all about public procurement

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Yeh, you're right. Don't know much about public procurement. Know a bit about private though, but i'm just going on the information that is out there which apparently everyone else is able to jump to chunky conclusions with...

robbiekeane said:

Because they are importing from an accredited producer and obviously have significantly bigger volume commitments on offer than the "long established PPE supplier" (beauty gown supplier that is) who was able to offer 40k gowns per month. The awarded supplier was able to offer 25 million gowns per year.
Non story really

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The government spent £252M on 50M face masks that wasn’t fit for purpose. Since when was £252M a non story?

skybluetony176 said:

The government spent £252M on 50M face masks that wasn’t fit for purpose. Since when was £252M a non story?

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Sorry are we talking about face masks or the gowns from Medpro vs Florence Roby? I think you may have misread my post, or your 110m post was about facemasks and i misunderstood

robbiekeane said:

Yeh, you're right. Don't know much about public procurement. Know a bit about private though, but i'm just going on the information that is out there which apparently everyone else is able to jump to chunky conclusions with...

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So if you give someone an order for £250M and the goods turned out to be unfit for purpose would that be a job well done?