Do you want to discuss boring politics? (168 Viewers)

shmmeee · Aug 15, 2021

SBT said:
I’m talking only about this specific statement of yours:

The document you then posted doesn’t say that at all.

Why would you suggest that Scottish government policy is trying to impose trans status on any non-stereotypical kid when it isn’t doing that at all?

It does say that.

Here’s what it says a transgender person is:

This makes no sense so you have to make some assumptions. So what’s gender identity?

Their “experience of gender”

what’s gender? It’s a bunch of stereotypes like boys don’t cry girls like pink.

So they’re saying someone is transgender if their gender doesn’t match their sex, which again is nonsense words but can best be guessed to mean acts in ways that aren’t stereotypical for their sex.

It’s gibberish at best and sexist bollocks at worst. It’s not close to coherent enough to be government policy, let alone guidance for schools working with kids.

Evo1883 · Aug 15, 2021

As usual the office topic section of skybluestalk thinks differently to the vast majority of people ..consider me shocked .

It's not about being left or right either this , it's about common sense .

We are creating an absolute monster in terms of mental health, many factors at play

SBT · Aug 15, 2021

shmmeee said:
It does say that.

Here’s what it says a transgender person is:
View attachment 21405

This makes no sense so you have to make some assumptions. So what’s gender identity?

View attachment 21406

Their “experience of gender”

what’s gender? It’s a bunch of stereotypes like boys don’t cry girls like pink.

So they’re saying someone is transgender if their gender doesn’t match their sex, which again is nonsense words but can best be guessed to mean acts in ways that aren’t stereotypical for their sex.

It’s gibberish at best and sexist bollocks at worst. It’s not close to coherent enough to be government policy, let alone guidance for schools working with kids.

You probably should have posted that part of the document first then. I can see that the definition seems clunky. But in any case, it still takes a fair amount of work on your part to get from this umbrella term (which by the document’s own admission is interchangeable), to your alarmist claim that all non-stereotypical kids are now trans in the eyes of the government. Clearly the assumptions you feel you “have to” make are taking you in a very different direction to where I would go.

shmmeee · Aug 15, 2021

SBT said:
You probably should have posted that part of the document first then. I can see that the definition seems clunky. But in any case, it still takes a fair amount of work on your part to get from this umbrella term (which by the document’s own admission is interchangeable), to your alarmist claim that all non-stereotypical kids are now trans in the eyes of the government. Clearly the assumptions you feel you “have to” make are taking you in a very different direction to where I would go.

And yet you’re still unable to state in clear terms (or any terms for that matter) what the correct interpretation is.

Ian1779 · Aug 15, 2021

Evo1883 said:
As usual the office topic section of skybluestalk thinks differently to the vast majority of people ..consider me shocked .

It's not about being left or right either this , it's about common sense .

We are creating an absolute monster in terms of mental health, many factors at play

I don’t think that’s quite fair. There are a lot of people on this thread that open admit to not knowing enough around this topic (myself included) and so are more considered before reaching absolute outrage.

Also, this is a document written by academics, and is a million miles away from what would a be implementable policy for schools and teachers to follow, and as I said before Safeguarding will come before any of this, so students will be protected.

Evo1883 · Aug 15, 2021

Ian1779 said:
I don’t think that’s quite fair. There are a lot of people on this thread that open admit to not knowing enough around this topic (myself included) and so are more considered before reaching absolute outrage.

Also, this is a document written by academics, and is a million miles away from what would a be implementable policy for schools and teachers to follow, and as I said before Safeguarding will come before any of this, so students will be protected.

And what are most academics ?

Universities very left wing institutions having a profound effect on policies going forward..

In will all end in tears

Ian1779 · Aug 15, 2021

Evo1883 said:
And what are most academics ?

Universities very left wing institutions having a profound effect on policies going forward..

In will all end in tears

You’ve just said it’s not about left and right… make your bloody mind up.

Evo1883 · Aug 15, 2021

Ian1779 said:
You’ve just said it’s not about left and right… make your bloody mind up.

Well I'm more on about the public opinion In general , it's not about left or right is it most people think it's fucking nuts .

The people asking the policies are all well educated academics coming from this background

shmmeee · Aug 15, 2021

Evo1883 said:
Well I'm more on about the public opinion In general , it's not about left or right is it most people think it's fucking nuts .

The people asking the policies are all well educated academics coming from this background

Nah it’s a particular corner of academia which has repeatedly been shown to have poor standards, group think, and unprovable views. Why that’s bleeding into government policy is an interesting question though.

Evo1883 · Aug 15, 2021

shmmeee said:
Nah it’s a particular corner of academia which has repeatedly been shown to have poor standards, group think, and unprovable views. Why that’s bleeding into government policy is an interesting question though.

When my old man went to Warwick University (old man is a Labour voter)
It certainly didn't sound like a well balanced place for reason and debate .

You either thought the same as they did or you were on your way off the course

It's very left wing

Deleted member 5849 · Aug 15, 2021

Evo1883 said:
Well I'm more on about the public opinion In general , it's not about left or right is it most people think it's fucking nuts .

The people asking the policies are all well educated academics coming from this background

Lazy stereotyping of the academy, there.

shmmeee · Aug 15, 2021

Evo1883 said:
When my old man went to Warwick University (old man is a Labour voter)
It certainly didn't sound like a well balanced place for reason and debate .

You either thought the same as they did or you were on your way off the course

I mean if the course is engineering then that’s fine. The problem is treating social science as as solid as physical science IMO.

Evo1883 · Aug 15, 2021

Deleted member 5849 said:
Lazy stereotyping of the academy, there.

I'm not sure that's true

Evo1883 · Aug 15, 2021

shmmeee said:
I mean if the course is engineering then that’s fine. The problem is treating social science as as solid as physical science IMO.

It wasn't engineering , it was psychology he did his last 2 years at Warwick uni

Evo1883 · Aug 15, 2021

On a different subject, I'm appalled at the way the US and UK are abandoning the poor afghan people like this .

What a tragic waste of time , resources and life the last 20 years have been .

Along with Iraq (which both Blair and Bush should pay for ) the way we've destabilised the whole region and the world in the process is nothing short of criminal

Where is the same western justice we applied to the middle east and its leaders

Skybluefaz · Aug 15, 2021

Evo1883 said:
On a different subject, I'm appalled at the way the US and UK are abandoning the poor afghan people like this .

What a tragic waste of time , resources and life the last 20 years have been .

Along with Iraq (which both Blair and Bush should pay for ) the way we've destabilised the whole region and the world in the process is nothing short of criminal

Where is the same western justice we applied to the middle east and its leaders

Horrible to see them reverting to taliban rule after I believe yourself and others have given so much to make a difference to people's lives over there. Do you think us and the US should have kept permanent bases over there like have existed in Germany and Japan since the war?

There was a fella talking about this on 5 live the other day and its hard to see another way around it.

Evo1883 · Aug 15, 2021

Skybluefaz said:
Horrible to see them reverting to taliban rule after I believe yourself and others have given so much to make a difference to people's lives over there. Do you think us and the US should have kept permanent bases over there like have existed in Germany and Japan since the war?

There was a fella talking about this on 5 live the other day and its hard to see another way around it.

Ultimately we should never have gone there ... but as we did we had to stay there in some capacity for the foreseeable

Evo1883 · Aug 15, 2021

Sadly what may now happen is a new war on Afghanistan , international pressure may see to that

wingy · Aug 15, 2021

"David Skelton: Is a new form of snobbery reshaping British politics? - BBC News" Is a new form of snobbery reshaping Britain? - BBC News

Brighton Sky Blue · Aug 15, 2021

shmmeee said:
I mean if the course is engineering then that’s fine. The problem is treating social science as as solid as physical science IMO.

On my PhD I had to include proof that room temperature in the lab was what I said it was. On my PGCE I could make up quotes and evidence from students without any of it being verified.

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Aug 15, 2021

shmmeee said:
You sound like someone who can’t explain what they’re on about so resorts to insults.

Gender is sex stereotypes. That’s what I’ve always been taught: boys have short hair, girls can’t throw, etc etc.

It says transgender people are people who’s gender isn’t the same as their sex. Which makes no sense so I assume they mean they don’t conform to sex stereotypes.

If you have a better description feel free to give it. I seriously doubt you have though.

You’ll be the third person in this thread to get get angry and abusive and be completely unable to answer basic questions about the ideology you’re getting angry about. It’s tiresome.

Sex is a biological certainty. Gender is a human construct that has become ingrained into our psyche.

The way forward isn't to start creating new constructs to fit people into, its to dismantle the constructs that already exists.

We're going to get nowhere until we realise gender doesn't actually exist and people should be free to act as they please regardless of what sex they are.

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Aug 15, 2021

Evo1883 said:
When my old man went to Warwick University (old man is a Labour voter)
It certainly didn't sound like a well balanced place for reason and debate .

You either thought the same as they did or you were on your way off the course

It's very left wing

From my own experience I'd agree about uni not being a place for debate. On my course attempts to question what was being taught weren't welcomed or dismissed as you not being as clever as them. Plus as the lecturers were responsible for marking papers/work etc if you wanted to get a decent mark you had to basically agree with the way they thought. Some of the stuff I was questioning has since been debunked, like trickle-down economics.

I felt I was far more able to question stuff at GCSE and A level and differ from the norm but still get a decent mark as long as you could argue your point well. I didn't feel I got that at uni, which was disappointing.

But as I alluded too my degree was economics/accounts based and so the thinking behind it was not left wing at all.

Also look at a lot of people in the govt with degrees from unis. Johnson, JRM, Sunak, Cameron etc. Hardly left wing are they? I doubt those going to places like LSE are hotbeds of lefties.

So while I reckon there is probably a heavily entrenched mindset in certain areas that would be very left wing, I reckon there's just as many with entrenched right wing. It just depends on which area you're studying.

shmmeee · Aug 15, 2021

Sky_Blue_Dreamer said:
Sex is a biological certainty. Gender is a human construct that has become ingrained into our psyche.

The way forward isn't to start creating new constructs to fit people into, its to dismantle the constructs that already exists.

We're going to get nowhere until we realise gender doesn't actually exist and people should be free to act as they please regardless of what sex they are.

100%

The idea that we’re telling kids “if you don’t do X Y or Z you’re not a *real* boy/girl and are probably something else” is some regressive bullshit.

stupot07 · Aug 15, 2021

So the PM is responding to very urgent international crisis of whats happening in Afghanistan by recalling Parliament on Wednesday....yes Wednesday....must be busy buying nappies

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shmmeee · Aug 15, 2021

Brighton Sky Blue said:
On my PhD I had to include proof that room temperature in the lab was what I said it was. On my PGCE I could make up quotes and evidence from students without any of it being verified.

This.

That doesn’t mean there isn’t value in social sciences, but a recognition of the evidence base behind theories is needed.

Education is chock full of grifters and woo. The amount of arguments I had about “learning styles” and the lack of evidence for them.

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Aug 15, 2021

Evo1883 said:
On a different subject, I'm appalled at the way the US and UK are abandoning the poor afghan people like this .

What a tragic waste of time , resources and life the last 20 years have been .

Along with Iraq (which both Blair and Bush should pay for ) the way we've destabilised the whole region and the world in the process is nothing short of criminal

Where is the same western justice we applied to the middle east and its leaders

It does make a mockery of all those that have served there, esp those that have died or had life-changing injuries.

I feel we and the US have been far too eager to get involved in other's disputes since WWII, driven largely by not wanting to let other ideologies like those of Russia and more recently China take hold but also including things like Islamic rule. But once we did get involved to leave in the manner we have is a poor choice and one which again I think we've made purely to follow what the US are doing.

Considering we've supposed to have been training Afghan forces for years, just how bad have we been at it considering how quickly the country has fallen to the Taliban? Either that or support for the Taliban and hard-line Islamic rule is far stronger than we'd like to think.

Looking forward, I think we'll see lots of sanctions and less economic ties with the country but sadly those don't tend to have much of an effect on the people in charge.

I hope we don't see pressure for another war because if so what was the point of the withdrawal? A few months after leaving going back in but almost from the original starting point and a lot more people will be killed.

oakey · Aug 15, 2021

Evo1883 said:
It wasn't engineering , it was psychology he did his last 2 years at Warwick uni

I used to upset Psychology A level students when I called it a soft science.
It's data is too subjective IMO and it's success in treating very unwell patients very patchy at best.

shmmeee · Aug 15, 2021

oakey said:
I used to upset Psychology A level students when I called it a soft science.
It's data is too subjective IMO and it's success in treating very unwell patients very patchy at best.

There’s a massive replicability crisis in psychology. Stuff like “power poses” “implicit bias” “priming” “personality types” leaks into popular culture and business as fact when it’s based on one dodgy study no one can replicate.

Evo1883 · Aug 15, 2021

oakey said:
I used to upset Psychology A level students when I called it a soft science.
It's data is too subjective IMO and it's success in treating very unwell patients very patchy at best.

My dad did it because it was something to keep him occupied whilst he stopped drinking alcohol ...true story

He got his degree

Ian1779 · Aug 15, 2021

shmmeee said:
This.

That doesn’t mean there isn’t value in social sciences, but a recognition of the evidence base behind theories is needed.

Education is chock full of grifters and woo. The amount of arguments I had about “learning styles” and the lack of evidence for them.

Teaching right now is full of people peddling their ‘research’ and it’s the new fad.
I’m of a mind that if I have to read some, I’m going to look at the stuff done by the people still delivering in the classroom on a regular basis, rather than the person writing a book on teaching that hasn’t done it for 10 years.

shmmeee · Aug 15, 2021

Ian1779 said:
Teaching right now is full of people peddling their ‘research’ and it’s the new fad.
I’m of a mind that if I have to read some, I’m going to look at the stuff done by the people still delivering in the classroom on a regular basis, rather than the person writing a book on teaching that hasn’t done it for 10 years.

Id rather sit and watch/speak to a teacher of 40 years from the school I’m in than read an “action research” paper by some 20 something on a fast track to SLT.

Having “multimodal semiotic analysis” flashbacks

Grendel · Aug 15, 2021

stupot07 said:
So the PM is responding to very urgent international crisis of whats happening in Afghanistan by recalling Parliament on Wednesday....yes Wednesday....must be busy buying nappies

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What should we do? Go back to war?

shmmeee · Aug 15, 2021

Grendel said:
What should we do? Go back to war?

Letting any refugees in might be a good start.

Sick Boy · Aug 15, 2021

shmmeee said:
Letting any refugees in might be a good start.

Yeah, I wonder if those countries most involved are going to take them in?

stupot07 · Aug 15, 2021

stupot07 said:
So the PM is responding to very urgent international crisis of whats happening in Afghanistan by recalling Parliament on Wednesday....yes Wednesday....must be busy buying nappies

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I was wrong. Hes on holiday. Ffs

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