Do you want to discuss boring politics? (24 Viewers)

[Brighton Sky Blue]

The former Labour Leader Jeremy Corbyn has criticised the direction of the party under Sir Keir Starmer for “offering nothing” but “insipid support for the government”.

Asked on Channel 4 News if Sir Keir should resign, Mr Corbyn said “it’s up to him what he decides to do”.

Mr Corbyn, who’s currently an independent MP having had the Labour whip removed, said “people want to know what the Labour Party now stands for” and the party has to “offer people a vision for social justice”.

He said the results were “very very bad in parts of the country” but in Wales “seem quite good", adding the leader of Welsh Labour “has never apologised for being a socialist”.

He insisted that the policies of his 2019 manifesto were right and popular, adding “I think the party has to recognise what its roots are, what principles are, and meet (people’s) needs.”

Is what he's saying fundamentally that crazy?

 

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[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Wow. Turns out they really did love those claps!

Well, Boris does certainly enjoy giving nurses the clap.

 

[PVA]

Woke mean 'alert to injustice in society, especially racism. Really depressing how it is now being used as a term of abuse.

Exactly this. I said as much a few weeks back and got abuse from the usual suspects.

Apparently stopping those who are treated unfairly from having a voice, ie stopping 'woke', is more important than any policy or improvement of public services such as the NHS and police

 

[clint van damme]

Well, Boris does certainly enjoy giving nurses the clap.

I find that really weird, everyone I know who works for the NHS, and obviously it's very small sample size of the many thousands, despises the tories.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

it's been answered...many times .

This is the jist for the final time

The people who used to vote Labour , now think they are a bunch of wankers .
They'd rather vote for the tories than see you and your MPs in charge .

You told brexiteers they were wrong
Your MPs spend time engaging in social politics on social media (bend that knee keir )
You don't like the working class you call racist , thick and privileged
You involve yourself in activism and social politics that most people reject and couldn't give 2 shits about
You're the party for the well educated middle class yuppies

And the people said fuck you

And now you keep losing .

People don't like you very much anymore

Simple really when you think about it

But then why not vote Lib Dem? Or Green? Or spoil the ballot as a protest? It's all very well saying I didn't vote labour because. Tories aren't the only other option. So why Tory? Not, why not Labour. Why Tory.

 

[Philosoraptor]

First resignation from the Labour front bench below.

Well worth a read.

The election of a Conservative MP in Hartlepool for the first time in the constituency’s modern history is yet another wake-up call for my party. Peter Mandelson once enjoyed a 17,500 majority here. Now the Tories are deep into what was once safe Labour territory – the industrial heartlands of the North – with a 7,000 majority of their own. In the West Midlands it looks again like Labour will lose out on the mayoral race and more. What has gone wrong for the Labour Party and our wider movement?

My view is simple: in the past decade, Labour has lost touch with ordinary British people. A London-based bourgeoisie, with the support of brigades of woke social media warriors, has effectively captured the party. They mean well, of course, but their politics – obsessed with identity, division and even tech utopianism – have more in common with those of Californian high society than the kind of people who voted in Hartlepool yesterday.

The loudest voices in the Labour movement over the past year in particular have focused more on pulling down Churchill’s statue than they have on helping people pull themselves up in the world. No wonder it is doing better among rich urban liberals and young university graduates than it is amongst the most important part of its traditional electoral coalition, the working-class.

A bit of superficial flag-waving – reinforced by urgent memos from party HQ – isn’t going to fix that. We have to recognise that the patriotism of these voters runs much deeper than that. They are more alert to rebranding exercises than spin doctors give them credit for. Their patriotism is about historic pride in their places, the heritage and stories of those places, and the Britishness and Englishness of the people and families that call them home.

I think of my own constituency in Birmingham and the city’s proud car-making history. There is a loss here that inspires the small-c conservatism of the working class: we know something has vanished and it hasn’t been replaced. This is what Jon Cruddas, speaking to Lisa Nandy this week at a Policy Exchange event, meant when he talked about the “dignity of labour” and how Labour must not lose sight of its historic roots.

As he puts it: “Parties are not just machines to chase votes and demographic flows. They are built out of ideas, traditions and memories and speak on behalf of certain communities. You cannot just jettison that.”

But Labour makes a mistake if it thinks all this is about nostalgia and looking backwards. It is also about the present. People on the ground, far from the elite and academic discussions in the capital, want the basic things done right. They want job security themselves – not zero hours contracts – and for their children and grandchildren to have a bright future. They want an NHS that works and doesn’t leave them waiting months for an operation or weeks for an appointment with their GP. They want investment in infrastructure, and in basic transport such as cleaner and greener buses. Most of all, they want to be listened to. I despaired when our local council ignored a 15,000-strong petition for a new flyover. On occasion, that we-know-best attitude can be found on a local level, too.

There is a need for humility, to begin with. If Labour is to win back seats like Hartlepool it will have to change the minds of people who yesterday chose to vote Conservative. Is there a danger that our party, in its opposition and confusion over Brexit, has veered towards an anti-British attitude? I certainly worry that some of our previous supporters will see it that way.

We fix that by supporting jobs in these so-called left behind areas – with changes to public procurement, for example, that bring jobs back to the UK and support manufacturing jobs, including those in high tech, advanced manufacturing.

Campaigning in Hartlepool over the past month, Peter Mandelson was told by one former Labour voter on the doorstep: “Sort yourselves out. You picked the wrong brother and you ended up with Corbyn so that’s goodbye to you. When you’ve sorted yourselves out, we’ll look at you again.”

It would be easy for Labour MPs and members to whinge about the unfairness of this summary of the past decade. But we must recognise that is how we are seen by so many people in the places that were once unfailingly loyal to us – as a party that has lost its way. It is only by engagement on a local level, meeting eye to eye with voters and hearing their concerns, that we will fix that. I will be doing so not from the Labour front bench, but walking the streets of my constituency as a backbencher and talking face to face with the people I have the honour to serve.


Khalid Mahmood

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Correct. An acknowledgment that Brexit has shit on the country would be a good starting point. The only thing that the government can talk about is Covid. Saw it again on question time last night. First mention of fishermen, change the subject to Covid.

Which is amazing in itself considering 99% of the Covid crisis they've fucked up. Only bit they've done right is the vaccines. Had this election been when it was meant to be (and the only reason it wasn't was cos the Tories made such massive fucking errors in the pandemic planning) they'd have been looking to avoid talking about Covid literaaly like the plague.

Once again, Tories fuck up and it leads to them benefitting.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

So should Labour or any other party pretend that Brexit is delivering sunlit uplands to win back votes?
At some points reality will bite, best thing all the other parties can do is let the Tories own Brexit and fall on that sword. Brexit should be the Tories Gulf War and Boris should be held in the same contempt as Blair.

In some ways the Cummings and Gove coup can't come soon enough as the Tories would lose the appeal of Johnson. Could you see the scrotum-cheeked one having anywhere near the same popularity as Johnson?

 

[David O'Day]

doing well in Wales which is another surprise, even taken the PC leaders seat from her and held Wrexham.

SNP majority in Scotland unlikely

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

They aren't Labour, that's the answer

Neither are LD or Green and are more closely aligned politically. So, why Tories?

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Amazing given the reason given last time was Jeremy Corbyn.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Amazing given the reason given last time was Jeremy Corbyn.

Sounds like an easy excuse to me

 

[chiefdave]

So after all this are we finally setting on the reason for people voting Conservative being 'they're not Labour'?

Struggle to get my head round that to be honest. As I've said before I can think of many reasons not to vote Labour, I've voted for other parties far more frequently than I've voted for Labour, but given we don't have compulsory voting or a two party system I don't really see why if you don't like Labour you vote Conservative irrespective of policy.

 

[Deleted member 9744]

Exactly this. I said as much a few weeks back and got abuse from the usual suspects.

Apparently stopping those who are treated unfairly from having a voice, ie stopping 'woke', is more important than any policy or improvement of public services such as the NHS and police

All part of the agenda to legitimise racism and discrimination. It's so cynical and sinister especially in tandem with the Racial Disparities report

 

[Deleted member 4439]

So after all this are we finally setting on the reason for people voting Conservative being 'they're not Labour'?

Struggle to get my head round that to be honest. As I've said before I can think of many reasons not to vote Labour, I've voted for other parties far more frequently than I've voted for Labour, but given we don't have compulsory voting or a two party system I don't really see why if you don't like Labour you vote Conservative irrespective of policy.

Oh dear, I just knew we'd go around the houses again after that flippant remark.

 

[wingy]

Views?



"Fury from travel industry at ‘extremely disappointing’ green list | The Independent" Fury from travel industry at ‘extremely disappointing’ green list

 

[SBAndy]

Oh dear, I just knew we'd go around the houses again after that flippant remark.

So (apologies, but I’m joining the circus now) if that is just a flippant remark, what is the real reason?

 

[skybluetony176]

So after all this are we finally setting on the reason for people voting Conservative being 'they're not Labour'?

Struggle to get my head round that to be honest. As I've said before I can think of many reasons not to vote Labour, I've voted for other parties far more frequently than I've voted for Labour, but given we don't have compulsory voting or a two party system I don't really see why if you don't like Labour you vote Conservative irrespective of policy.

Yep. You could always just not vote or spoil your ballot paper and register a protest vote.

 

[skybluetony176]

Views?



"Fury from travel industry at ‘extremely disappointing’ green list | The Independent" Fury from travel industry at ‘extremely disappointing’ green list

The so called green list is pointless unless the countries on it are in agreement that they’re happy for free movement of people (before the Brexit lot get their knickers in a twist I mean travel without the need for quarantine) in both directions. For instance Australia is on (why wouldn’t they be, they didn’t exercise incompetence on an astronomical scale that led to one of the highest death rates and tolls in the world) but if you book a 2 week holiday there you’re going to spend it in a hotel room by the airport you landed at. Be okay I suppose if you’re going traveling for a period of time but in reality who’s doing that at the moment. Where on the list is actually welcoming Brits where we can land, present some proof of vaccination or a negative test and then start your holiday?

 

[skybluetony176]

But then why not vote Lib Dem? Or Green? Or spoil the ballot as a protest? It's all very well saying I didn't vote labour because. Tories aren't the only other option. So why Tory? Not, why not Labour. Why Tory.

Let’s face it, Lib Dem’s are just anti fox hunting Tory light so it’s an easier transition from Labour than Labour to Tory. Because they’re not Labour doesn’t read as a genuine reason when there’s other options, especially given the quality in the Tories, or lack thereof. I know none of the parties are exactly setting the bar high but the Tories are the limbo champions of British politics when it comes to quality.

 

[Ian1779]

The so called green list is pointless unless the countries on it are in agreement that they’re happy for free movement of people (before the Brexit lot get their knickers in a twist I mean travel without the need for quarantine) in both directions. For instance Australia is on (why wouldn’t they be, they didn’t exercise incompetence on an astronomical scale that led to one of the highest death rates and tolls in the world) but if you book a 2 week holiday there you’re going to spend it in a hotel room by the airport you landed at. Be okay I suppose if you’re going traveling for a period of time but in reality who’s doing that at the moment. Where on the list is actually welcoming Brits where we can land, present some proof of vaccination or a negative test and then start your holiday?

For someone who is looking to go to Australia to see family, the current situation is they won’t let you in until at least October, so putting them on the green list is pointless.

 

[skybluetony176]

For someone who is looking to go to Australia to see family, the current situation is they won’t let you in until at least October, so putting them on the green list is pointless.

Is it still just residents and citizens only?

 

[wingy]

The so called green list is pointless unless the countries on it are in agreement that they’re happy for free movement of people (before the Brexit lot get their knickers in a twist I mean travel without the need for quarantine) in both directions. For instance Australia is on (why wouldn’t they be, they didn’t exercise incompetence on an astronomical scale that led to one of the highest death rates and tolls in the world) but if you book a 2 week holiday there you’re going to spend it in a hotel room by the airport you landed at. Be okay I suppose if you’re going traveling for a period of time but in reality who’s doing that at the moment. Where on the list is actually welcoming Brits where we can land, present some proof of vaccination or a negative test and then start your holiday?

Poor old Malta and Croatia.
I was getting the feeling from the speculation that it would present as an unofficial vaccinated charter by default due to the destinations not lending themselves to a typical family sun break,more to the mature culture seeking traveller.

 

[Ian1779]

Is it still just residents and citizens only?

As I understood it. Been trying to get flights for the mother in law to visit her son as she’s got Parkinson’s and worried how much longer she’ll be able to keep going. Already had to cancel twice, but they were pretty insistent nothing from the UK and Europe, only their own travel
Corridor with NZ. Now unless they’ve changed their minds and done a deal with the UK...

 

[skybluetony176]

Poor old Malta and Croatia.
I was getting the feeling from the speculation that it would present as an unofficial vaccinated charter by default due to the destinations not lending themselves to a typical family sun break,more to the mature culture seeking traveller.

Never been to Croatia so not sure what the scene is. Malta last time I went was great but very cultural experience orientated and IIRC only one decent beach and its quite small.

 

[oakey]

But how do you fix the problem if you don't ask what it is?

Like the missus getting the hump with you and when you ask her what's wrong her saying "you should know what's wrong and the only reason you don't is cos you never bother to ask about me" I'm literally there right now asking and you're not telling me.

Interesting take. I have never once had that conversation with my husband of 36 years. Clearly the secret of our success.

 

[Liquid Gold]

Preston council, where Labour are enacting socialist policies - Labour hold
Welsh elections, where the Labour leader is a self-proclaimed socialist - Labour gains
Manchester mayor, where the Labour incumbent is undertaking a program of public ownership - Labour hold

Where Labour are offering a vision they're doing well.

 

[oakey]

There is room for a psychological study on why people are so angry with Labour when they haven't been in power for 11 years. Most of the media coverage tonight has been about Labour, when really the focus should be on the Tory victories. Very odd. It reminds me of the day City beat Liverpool 4 - 0. It suggests to me that people want the Labour party to be better so they can like them again. Very odd but an opportunity.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Never been to Croatia so not sure what the scene is. Malta last time I went was great but very cultural experience orientated and IIRC only one decent beach and its quite small.

Croatia is simply beautiful

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

There is room for a psychological study on why people are so angry with Labour when they haven't been in power for 11 years. Most of the media coverage tonight has been about Labour, when really the focus should be on the Tory victories. Very odd. It reminds me of the day City beat Liverpool 4 - 0. It suggests to me that people want the Labour party to be better so they can like them again. Very odd but an opportunity.

Now that’s what I think is the case. I think they expect them to be something they can’t be and expect far more than they do from the conservatives. Evo will laugh and say anything but Labour

 

[SBAndy]

But Evo votes Labour. It does feel a bit rough on him slamming him with the “why the Tories” question repeatedly when he’s said as much.

Still a question that needs answering by someone though. As stated, you can vote for Lib Dem, Green, could even just not vote. So to flip completely to the other side of the coin and vote Tory is just...odd.

 

[shmmeee]

That still doesn't explain why Labour have gone from 15k to 8k in 18 months though

It’s a by-election. Turnout is always down. Same reason the Tory vote went from 22k to 15k.

 

[SkyBlueDom26]

I haven't said people should vote for any party in particular. I am interested in what is so appealing to that party in particular. What is it that does it for you?

Because labour are a waste of time

 

[SkyBlueDom26]

Out of interest when you all didn't vote Labour because of Corbyn did you vote Conservative? If so what was it that attracted your vote? And now that Corbyn is gone has your vote returned to Labour?

Absolutely agree people can do what they want. However the question has been repeatedly asked in recent weeks what it is about the Conservatives that makes people vote for them and so far the answers have been lots of reasons to not vote Labour and nothing about why the Conservatives appeal.

Maybe because I and many others didn’t want Jeremy fucking Corbyn running our country lol, couldn’t think of anything worse

 

[Deleted member 5849]

With Welsh Labour doing well, don't these elections show endorsement of vaccine rollout and recent pandemic policy?