Do you want to discuss boring politics? (186 Viewers)

[Ian1779]

It's a pretend job that has existed with a well defined role for 24 years?

It's a more senior, more public front office role.

Go on then - name the real or shadow who held that role prior to Gove and Rayner... no Googling.

 

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[David O'Day]

Something something, and a bit nicked from
Waitrose.

To be fair at least she has a job title unlike Grenners

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Go on then - name the real or shadow who held that role prior to Gove and Rayner... no Googling.

Good luck there he googles more often than G does at Kenny

 

[David O'Day]

Go on then - name the real or shadow who held that role prior to Gove and Rayner... no Googling.

Green when he was first sec of state? E Miliband? Jowell? Francis Maude? Mo Mowlem??

 

[shmmeee]

The only chance labour have of winning the elections is through fraud lol no wonder you don’t want voter ID

Mate. The Tories are literally changing the more democratic mayoral election system to FPTP because it’s the only way they can win. The entire system is rigged for one party in this country and you’ve got the cheek to parrot some Trump level crap you heard the yanks online say.

You really should stay out of politics threads, you embarrass yourself.

 

[clint van damme]

Khalid Mahmood, in today's Telegraph

As a Labour MP, the fact that one of my colleagues – the MP for Hartlepool – is being replaced by a Conservative for the first time in 62 years is troubling enough. There is a national narrative that runs strongly against my party now. We are seen as out of touch, a party captured by urban liberals, whose most vocal supporters are university graduates with woke politics straight from the world of left-wing campus protests. The other 50 per cent of society – aspirational and looking for better opportunities – does not think we have the answers.

What worries me the most is the gains the Tories are making on a local level with mayors and councils. MPs and members of my party should have sleepless nights after 73 per cent of the Tees Valley vote went to the Conservative Mayor, Ben Houchen. As Boris Johnson is reported to have told him, this is almost showing off. Likewise, to see Andy Street, the Mayor of the West Midlands, moving from a lead of 4,000 second preference votes in 2017 to 47,043 this time is a real concern. In Birmingham, where I am an MP, there was a setback for the City Council’s leadership as the Tories took two council seats.

Although our politics at times looks presidential, with more focus on the party leaders in the media than ever before, it remains my view – as a former councillor myself, and as I approach my 20th anniversary of becoming an MP – that these races are ultimately won on the ground, street by street. It is how MPs, councillors and activists respond to voters’ local concerns that changes things.

People, especially younger voters, care more about environment than ever before. But instead of supporting and helping them make the greener choices they would like to, in too many areas we’ve been penalising them. Instead of greener and cleaner buses with cheaper fares, we are hitting motorists with congestion zone charging – and when they complain, ticking them off for not owning electric cars. Instead of spending more on public transport, we are mucking about with road development so that journeys take longer and traffic moves slower. It may sound mundane but people notice these things – especially when idling cars worsen pollution.

Councils are also making woeful choices on procurement. Instead of hiring local IT companies, for example, supporting local jobs for local people, they hire enormous Plcs – and then wonder why talented young people don’t stick around when it comes to finding a job.

Speaking of which, has my party done enough to defend the interests of those 50% of young people who don’t go to university? My worry is that we have become too associated with the Labour promise to get half of people studying for degrees. Further Education, though attempts have been made to boost it over the past two decades, stubbornly remains “forgotten education” for most – something, like apprenticeships, that is for other people’s children rather than a key focus for us. We have to give people who don’t succeed academically at school the chance to do well later on and the skills to ensure a lifetime of work.

Without the right training and skills, we aren’t going to be equipped as a country for some of the economic opportunities of the future – especially in advanced manufacturing. I say this as someone who learnt my trade at a polytechnic then on the job as an engineer.

As David Goodhart, one of my colleagues at Policy Exchange, the think tank, has written, there is too much focus on jobs involving the head, and not enough on those that use the hand and the heart – in manual labour and care work, for example. Labour should be the natural party for such people, ensuring that they have what my fellow Labour MP Jon Cruddas calls the “dignity of labour”, throughout their careers.

I fear that too much of my party’s energy has gone into identity politics and niche culture wars. Some of our most vocal activists have been more interested in tearing down Churchill’s statue than helping people of modest means pull themselves up.

Sadly, we’ve also allowed people to stoke social division where there shouldn’t be any. My own personal experiences are that this isn’t a racist country. I don’t believe it ever was. My white colleagues on the Birmingham factory floor welcomed me like one of their own when I began my career as an engineer. There needs to be better learning and education especially in the inner city areas to provide greater opportunities for people. You’d think, reading some social commentary in recent years – or listening to the self-appointed gatekeepers of the Muslim community – that things were getting worse, not better.

British voters clearly don’t agree. They want optimism, patriotism and for government to work for them.
They want to see smart investment that makes a difference to their own lives and local places, of which they remain deeply proud. If they think we aren’t listening to their concerns, Labour is going to keep on losing.

Talks a lot of sense.
Given how he mentions local issues I wonder if Starmer has plans to replace the Community organising unit?

Seems a poor decision to get rid of it otherwise.

 

[Deleted member 4439]

Khalid's mention of how he was received at work suddenly took me back 30 years to when I last worked on the factory floor. It was a very mixed economy of whites (English, Scots and Irish), Hindus, Sikhs and Muslims. Truly, I can't think of one instance, whether in private conversation or as a group when I observed racism. I'm not saying that racism didn't exist in society back then, but in the workplace there was the unifying force of workers together, partly to stand our ground and because the sheer monotony of work cultivated the need for us to come together to embrace our situation. I left shortly before that workplace, like so many, was pretty much stripped of union rights except in name only.

I know this is a very simplistic and unoriginal view, it it seems to me that the loss of manufacturing and associated services to globalization, the destruction of union rights and decent jobs has created a vacuum in which we have been splintered, and that vacuum replaced by the disjointed concerns of minorities.

We know that we will never see a return to a mass labour movement, but it's hard to see what the theme would be around which Labour votes could be coalesced. Tbh, whilst for me Khalid has correctly identified some of the issues, not least the metropolitan elite and its tactic of cultural hegemony, I didn't find anything in his note that showed me the way forward,

 

[shmmeee]

Khalid's mention of how he was received at work suddenly took me back 30 years to when I last worked on the factory floor. It was a very mixed economy of whites (English, Scots and Irish), Hindus, Sikhs and Muslims. Truly, I can't think of one instance, whether in private conversation or as a group when I observed racism. I'm not saying that racism didn't exist in society back then, but in the workplace there was the unifying force of workers together, partly to stand our ground and because the sheer monotony of work cultivated the need for us to come together to embrace our situation. I left shortly before that workplace, like so many, was pretty much stripped of union rights except in name only.

I know this is a very simplistic and unoriginal view, it it seems to me that the loss of manufacturing and associated services to globalization, the destruction of union rights and decent jobs has created a vacuum in which we have been splintered, and that vacuum replaced by the disjointed concerns of minorities.

We know that we will never see a return to a mass labour movement, but it's hard to see what the theme would be around which Labour votes could be coalesced. Tbh, whilst for me Khalid has correctly identified some of the issues, not least the metropolitan elite and its tactic of cultural hegemony, I didn't find anything in his note that showed me the way forward,

Spot on.

It’s the “what are Labour for?” Question that’s hard to answer. The fault lines these days are cultural not economic so the easy answer is: liberalism and wokeness, but you won’t win an election like that.

It should still be economics IMO: demanding higher wages, affordable living, etc. But these days you’ve got the likes of Nick as standard who thinks everyone should work for minimum wage and be happy they’ve got a job.

Everyone’s been indoctrinated into this cult of the individual, even “left wing” politics is all about the individual and not the class these days with ID politics.

Worrying times for a species that’s at its best working together and currently faced by an extinction level event only stoppable by working together.

 

[Evo1883]

Khalid's mention of how he was received at work suddenly took me back 30 years to when I last worked on the factory floor. It was a very mixed economy of whites (English, Scots and Irish), Hindus, Sikhs and Muslims. Truly, I can't think of one instance, whether in private conversation or as a group when I observed racism. I'm not saying that racism didn't exist in society back then, but in the workplace there was the unifying force of workers together, partly to stand our ground and because the sheer monotony of work cultivated the need for us to come together to embrace our situation. I left shortly before that workplace, like so many, was pretty much stripped of union rights except in name only.

I know this is a very simplistic and unoriginal view, it it seems to me that the loss of manufacturing and associated services to globalization, the destruction of union rights and decent jobs has created a vacuum in which we have been splintered, and that vacuum replaced by the disjointed concerns of minorities.

We know that we will never see a return to a mass labour movement, but it's hard to see what the theme would be around which Labour votes could be coalesced. Tbh, whilst for me Khalid has correctly identified some of the issues, not least the metropolitan elite and its tactic of cultural hegemony, I didn't find anything in his note that showed me the way forward,

I worked at jaguar Land rover for 2 years .
The lads before me on the track were white and Indian, the lads behind me on the track were white and black .
All down the track people of every background quite literally getting on , having a laugh working together .

I now work at a place where it's a similar story (I won't name it as I don't know whose on here )

I just don't see this fractured society we are told about .
But we are told about it constantly by everybody else .
That's why it confuses so many people and annoys them .

I live on a street with people of different races and backgrounds ..
We borrow things off eachother , the Indian guy behind me jet washed my patio for nothing , the Somalian family by us , we took their daughter last week to Kenilworth Park , when it's hot we all chat in the gardens .

Many people just don't see it and that's why it's so confusing and hard for us to understand

 

[Evo1883]

The place I work now has a very very strong union , I will say that much.

The workers have so much power sometimes it's hard to believe what goes on

 

[Skybluefaz]

I worked at jaguar Land rover for 2 years .
The lads before me on the track were white and Indian, the lads behind me on the track were white and black .
All down the track people of every background quite literally getting on , having a laugh working together .

I now work at a place where it's a similar story (I won't name it as I don't know whose on here )

I just don't see this fractured society we are told about .
But we are told about it constantly by everybody else .
That's why it confuses so many people and annoys them .

I live on a street with people of different races and backgrounds ..
We borrow things off eachother , the Indian guy behind me jet washed my patio for nothing , the Somalian family by us , we took their daughter last week to Kenilworth Park , when it's hot we all chat in the gardens .

Many people just don't see it and that's why it's so confusing and hard for us to understand

I think when you are collaborating and working with people from different ethnicities and backgrounds it is one of the best cracks you can have. In my last job we had white, sikh, hindu and muslims working together. There was loads of self deprecating humour going on (Muslim mate moaned about the lack of phone signal in caves when he got back from visiting family in Pakistan) for example. We'd play football after work, go the pub at lunch times. Pretty bang on.

Equally though I can tell you stories about when I was a manager of a food store and my boss who was a hindu showed me a racist anti-muslim video on his phone in what was one of the most awkward moments of my life. Same boss got called a paki by one of my members of staff as he got out of his car just before we were about to sack him. The lad was nicking from the tills and wouldn't have even known who my boss was at that point.

Basically I think most people are sound, you see this in these collaborative environments like shopfloors on the tracks etc as people have explained. Start removing the number of eyes and ears around though and some people show their true colours. I'd be amazed if most people weren't mainly exposed to racism within their own 4 walls. I know I was. Now you have twitter where you can be relatively anonymous and dish out abuse and extreme views (left, right, black, white, whatever) and you have a sort of opposite environment to the one I described above where you have a community of fuckwits who get emboldened by it.

Well that is my hot take anyway.

 

[chiefdave]

Bullshit, why’s it such a problem about proving you’re identity.....always making excuses

The issue is that it prevents some people from voting and has been shown to disproportionally impact certain demographics. 3.5 million people in the UK don't any photo ID , if you require either a passport or driving license that increases to 11 million. These are often the poorer people in society so aren't going to be able to afford to obtain photo ID just so they can vote. Why should they be denied their democratic right?

Its also trying to fix an issue that doesn't exist.
General election: Evidence shows electoral fraud not a danger to British democracy | Politics News | Sky News
Electoral fraud data | Electoral Commission

 

[shmmeee]

Bullshit, why’s it such a problem about proving you’re identity.....always making excuses

Because the people who can’t prove it easily vote mostly for the other party.

Jesus I bet you believe in Santa as well. Absolute conmans wet dream.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Bullshit, why’s it such a problem about proving you’re identity.....always making excuses

You'd have been all for Blair's ID cards scheme then.

Or Thatcher's football fan ID card scheme, where only people with them could go to a game...

 

[shmmeee]

Got to notice how none of the Tories can tell you anything they want/expect, just “lol Labour suck and I’m not Labour”, it’s Brexit all over again. A whole swathe of people excited for something but they don’t know what it is so can’t be disappointed.

Politics as grift. Absolutely mental.

 

[Evo1883]

In regards to the photo ID to vote

Are they free ? Isn't it similar already in northern Ireland ?
What other countries use this method ?
Is it successful?

As long as all legal residents have one why will it be a problem ?

Not too clued up on this kind of thing , haven't really read much about it at all

 

[SkyBlueDom26]

In regards to the photo ID to vote

Are they free ? Isn't it similar already in northern Ireland ?
What other countries use this method ?
Is it successful?

As long as all legal residents have one why will it be a problem ?

Not too clued up on this kind of thing , haven't really read much about it at all

Basically Labour's only chance of winning is without it.....its a great idea as people actually have to prove who they are

 

[SkyBlueDom26]

Got to notice how none of the Tories can tell you anything they want/expect, just “lol Labour suck and I’m not Labour”, it’s Brexit all over again. A whole swathe of people excited for something but they don’t know what it is so can’t be disappointed.

Politics as grift. Absolutely mental.

Think you should switch parties to avoid 20 years + of misery

 

[shmmeee]

In regards to the photo ID to vote

Are they free ? Isn't it similar already in northern Ireland ?
What other countries use this method ?
Is it successful?

As long as all legal residents have one why will it be a problem ?

Not too clued up on this kind of thing , haven't really read much about it at all

No, neither passports nor driving licences are free. Around 25% of adults have neither.

 

[shmmeee]

Think you should switch parties to avoid 20 years + of misery

Think you should learn the difference between sport and politics and not be such a credulous child but here we are.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

In regards to the photo ID to vote

Are they free ? Isn't it similar already in northern Ireland ?
What other countries use this method ?
Is it successful?

As long as all legal residents have one why will it be a problem ?

Not too clued up on this kind of thing , haven't really read much about it at all

If you're going to do it, may as well just do a full-on ID card.

But when Blair suggested that, the people now suggesting this were up in arms.

 

[shmmeee]

If you're going to do it, may as well just do a full-on ID card.

But when Blair suggested that, the people now suggesting this were up in arms.

I quit Labour over ID cards, I’m a civil libertarian at heart, but that ship has well and truly sailed. GCHQ know everything from my favourite breakfast to how long I last when wanking. At least make government more efficient while you’re at it I say.

 

[SkyBlueDom26]

Think you should learn the difference between sport and politics and not be such a credulous child but here we are.

Hows not being against Voter ID childish lol, the majority of people don't have a problem with it

 

[PVA]

Basically Labour's only chance of winning is without it.....its a great idea as people actually have to prove who they are

You still haven't answered the question - if voter fraud is so widespread at the moment are you saying the Tories keep winning elections fraudulently?

 

[Skybluefaz]

If you're going to do it, may as well just do a full-on ID card.

But when Blair suggested that, the people now suggesting this were up in arms.

I read somewhere that Johnson has previously voted against ID cards 12 times or something like that.

 

[Evo1883]

If you're going to do it, may as well just do a full-on ID card.

But when Blair suggested that, the people now suggesting this were up in arms.

Would people rather we had mandatory voting like Australia for example .

 

[shmmeee]

Hows not being against Voter ID childish lol, the majority of people don't have a problem with it

No you are childish. Nothing to do with voter ID. It’s about you. Dom.

 

[shmmeee]

Would people rather we had mandatory voting like Australia for example .

What problem exactly are we trying to solve? Probably best to start there before picking a solution.

The problem we are trying to solve appears to be “not everyone elects a Tory”.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Would people rather we had mandatory voting like Australia for example .

That's an interesting philosophical question really, and a bit deep for a Monday morning

Personally, I'd spoil my ballot paper and register a protest by electoral action rather than not just turning up, so I can see the appeal but... something sits slightly uncomfortably with me with people being forced to vote.

As per this election, the first thing to do to get people out and vote is actually show you care yourself, if you're standing for election! What forcing people to a ballot box doesn't do is improve engagement.

 

[shmmeee]

Mandatory voting but we can select “none of the above” and it disqualifies all candidates from running for ten years and a new election is held if NOTA wins.

 

[Evo1883]

What problem exactly are we trying to solve? Probably best to start there before picking a solution.

The problem we are trying to solve appears to be “not everyone elects a Tory”.

I was thinking along the lines of if everybody had to vote , maybe people would become more interested in politics and policies that effect them, over time ofcourse ... leading people to vote for their actual interests

 

[Ian1779]

Hows not being against Voter ID childish lol, the majority of people don't have a problem with it

Go on then - chuck your voter ID idea into the Tory Facebook groups you frequent and see what happens

 

[Deleted member 5849]

I was thinking along the lines of if everybody had to vote , maybe people would become more interested in politics and policies that effect them, over time ofcourse ... leading to people voting for their actual interests

Or they'll just be disengaged with being ordered to vote, and will end up voting for the next Nigel-come-lately who promises an end to the election tyranny of the state.

 

[Ian1779]

I was thinking along the lines of if everybody had to vote , maybe people would become more interested in politics and policies that effect them, over time ofcourse ... leading people to vote for their actual interests

I think if you make sure people have the ‘none of the above’ option to choose then you could try mandatory voting?

 

[Deleted member 5849]

I do however think you give up your right to complain about the government of the day if you don't take up your right to vote against them when the time comes...