Do you want to discuss boring politics? (227 Viewers)

[Grendel]

Any polling done on policies shows the public to be centre left, sometimes further.

Which shows policies in isolation are not major priorities. Also as I constantly say it’s the wording of these polling groups that matter

 

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[Brighton Sky Blue]

Which shows policies in isolation are not major priorities. Also as I constantly say it’s the wording of these polling groups that matter

And I keep agreeing with you that policies don’t seem to matter.

 

[Skybluefaz]

I haven’t mentioned Boris we are talking about Labour mate

So you are saying that the circuit breaker wasn't a good idea then?

 

[shmmeee]

Which shows policies in isolation are not major priorities. Also as I constantly say it’s the wording of these polling groups that matter

The vast majority of people self report as left wing, even Tory voters are basically centrists economically on average. What wins the Tories votes isn’t their economics, it’s their cultural attitudes, we are a massively socially conservative country.

 

[fatso]

But... isn't that the supposed exact problem? Labour are too focused on the middle classes and not the working man?

No, the exact problem is the opposite.
They are focusing far far too much on the working man.
The old idea of the working man living in a council house, wearing a flat cap, smoking woodbines and walking his whippet is the very reason they are failing.
Those people have become an "under class"
The working man, now owns his own house and is paying 1.5% mortgage interest rate, which under the tories is historically low, and they ain't going to risk that by letting labour fuck it up with irresponsible spending.
(you can argue this all you like, but that IS the petception)
The current working man, is now paying into a pension fund, and might even buy some shares, and has now become politically aware.

The underclass have become left behind, but the point is this, they either dont vote, dont trust labour, or there arnt enough of them to swing elections.

While mortgage rates are low, no one wants to rock the boat, and they are happy to put up with Boris in no10, for all his faults, If mortgage rates rise and people are losing their homes then Boris and the Torys are out.
Its brutal, put it's the truth.

If the working man has is own home, has an active pension fund, can run a car, have a holiday etc he ain't voting for a labour party he sees as being a socialist far left party.

Labour needs to modernise and appeal to this new "middle England " class, because they are the ones who are now voting en mass.

 

[clint van damme]

No, the exact problem is the opposite.
They are focusing far far too much on the working man.
The old idea of the working man living in a council house, wearing a flat cap, smoking woodbines and walking his whippet is the very reason they are failing.
Those people have become an "under class"
The working man, now owns his own house and is paying 1.5% mortgage interest rate, which under the tories is historically low, and they ain't going to risk that by letting labour fuck it up with irresponsible spending.
The current working man, is now paying into a pension fund, and might even buy some shares, and has now become politically aware.

The underclass have become left behind, but the point is this, they either dont vote, dont trust labour, or there arnt enough of them to swing elections.

While mortgage rates are low, no one wants to rock the boat, and they are happy to put up with Boris in no10, for all his faults, If mortgage rates rise and people are losing their homes then Boris and the Torys are out.
Its brutal, put it's the truth.

If the working man has is own home, has an active pension fund, can run a car, have a holiday etc he ain't voting for a labour party he sees as being a socialist far left party.

Labour needs to modernise and appeal to this new "middle England " class, because they are the ones who are now voting en mass.

The Bank of England set the interest rates.
And UK taxes are the highest for years (all taxes combined not solely income tax).

Couple with that wage suppression which is going to continue for at least anther two years even though there is expected to be big rises in gdp after bunch back from covid. Im not sure they're really helping the new working class you've described.

 

[fatso]

The Bank of England set the interest rates.
And UK taxes are the highest for years (all taxes combined not solely income tax).

Couple with that wage suppression which is going to continue for at least anther two years even though there is expected to be big rises in gdp after bunch back from covid. Im not sure they're really helping the new working class you've described.

No one gives a fuck who SETS the interest rate, the fact is they are historically low, and currently that's a slam dunk for Boris.

What happens with wages post brexit remains to be seen, that's for Boris to handle.
If he does it well he will go from strength to strength, if he doesnt he will see his majority decline, but let's be honest, it's going to have to be the mother of all fuck ups to loose an 80+ seat majority over the next 10 years.

 

[clint van damme]

No one gives a fuck who SETS the interest rate, the fact is they are historically low, and currently that's a slam dunk for Boris.

What happens with wages post brexit remains to be seen, that's for Boris to handle.
If he does it well he will go from strength to strength, if he doesnt he will see his majority decline, but let's be honest, it's going to have to be the mother of all fuck ups to loose an 80+ seat majority over the next 10 years.

And those historically low interest rates aren't going to help the fella paying into his pension wnoever set them.

I think your idea that there is a new type of working man is right, but I disagree with a couple of the points in there but overall I think its correct.

 

[It’sabatch87]

So you are saying that the circuit breaker wasn't a good idea then?

Not sure what your going on about mate tbh.
Say it in English.

 

[Skybluefaz]

Not sure what your going on about mate tbh.
Say it in English.

You said Starmer doesn't put forward any decent ideas. Off the top of my head I thought of the circuit breaker lockdown he suggested and was subsequently derided by the PM for. Let the bodies pile high in their thousands said good old Boris, and they did. There is a word with more than 2 syllables in there. Apologies if you struggle to understand.

Keir Starmer urges PM to impose 'circuit breaker' lockdown on England

Labour leader says Boris Johnson must ‘follow the science’ as Covid death toll rises sharply

www.theguardian.com

 

[Deleted member 4439]

No, the exact problem is the opposite.
They are focusing far far too much on the working man.
The old idea of the working man living in a council house, wearing a flat cap, smoking woodbines and walking his whippet is the very reason they are failing.
Those people have become an "under class"
The working man, now owns his own house and is paying 1.5% mortgage interest rate, which under the tories is historically low, and they ain't going to risk that by letting labour fuck it up with irresponsible spending.
(you can argue this all you like, but that IS the petception)
The current working man, is now paying into a pension fund, and might even buy some shares, and has now become politically aware.

The underclass have become left behind, but the point is this, they either dont vote, dont trust labour, or there arnt enough of them to swing elections.

While mortgage rates are low, no one wants to rock the boat, and they are happy to put up with Boris in no10, for all his faults, If mortgage rates rise and people are losing their homes then Boris and the Torys are out.
Its brutal, put it's the truth.

If the working man has is own home, has an active pension fund, can run a car, have a holiday etc he ain't voting for a labour party he sees as being a socialist far left party.

Labour needs to modernise and appeal to this new "middle England " class, because they are the ones who are now voting en mass.

The Cameron and Johnson governments have been the Tory's response to the success of the Blair / Brown governments in seizing the managed capitalism ground and the support of public goods.

As Tory moderates, these governments have continued with the Blair/Brown agenda of support for centrally controlled public services (but much less so, local services). And as compared to the Tory governments of the nineties, they run the economy competently (stupid). Compared to Thatcher and her acolytes, they are indeed New Labour.

So if Labour wants to get power back, it will have to find it's Blarite Labour once more.

 

[It’sabatch87]

You said Starmer doesn't put forward any decent ideas. Off the top of my head I thought of the circuit breaker lockdown he suggested and was subsequently derided by the PM for. Let the bodies pile high in their thousands said good old Boris, and they did. There is a word with more than 2 syllables in there. Apologies if you struggle to understand.

Keir Starmer urges PM to impose 'circuit breaker' lockdown on England

Labour leader says Boris Johnson must ‘follow the science’ as Covid death toll rises sharply

www.theguardian.com

Yes I do thanks for clearing that up

 

[Deleted member 5849]

The Cameron and Johnson governments have been the Tory's response to the success of the Blair / Brown governments in seizing the managed capitalism ground and the support of public goods.

Johnson maybe, not sure you can say that about Cameron! Our budget was cut massively during Cameron's time in power... Where Cameron was 'lucky' was being able to have the Lib Dems as his fall guys - that happened to work beautifully for him!

 

[Ian1779]

So what do we reckon for the Batley & Spen by election? Another dropped in candidate with no connection to the area or the people, or will they think about what happened in Hartlepool? 60% Leave constituency and the Labour MP has a 3,500 majority.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

So what do we reckon for the Batley & Spen by election? Another dropped in candidate with no connection to the area or the people, or will they think about what happened in Hartlepool? 60% Leave constituency and the Labour MP has a 3,500 majority.

Airdrie and Shotts this week too

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Spot on.

It’s the “what are Labour for?” Question that’s hard to answer. The fault lines these days are cultural not economic so the easy answer is: liberalism and wokeness, but you won’t win an election like that.

It should still be economics IMO: demanding higher wages, affordable living, etc. But these days you’ve got the likes of Nick as standard who thinks everyone should work for minimum wage and be happy they’ve got a job.

Everyone’s been indoctrinated into this cult of the individual, even “left wing” politics is all about the individual and not the class these days with ID politics.

Worrying times for a species that’s at its best working together and currently faced by an extinction level event only stoppable by working together.

You sure you’re not a fellow follower of the man jesus?

 

[shmmeee]

No, the exact problem is the opposite.
They are focusing far far too much on the working man.
The old idea of the working man living in a council house, wearing a flat cap, smoking woodbines and walking his whippet is the very reason they are failing.
Those people have become an "under class"
The working man, now owns his own house and is paying 1.5% mortgage interest rate, which under the tories is historically low, and they ain't going to risk that by letting labour fuck it up with irresponsible spending.
(you can argue this all you like, but that IS the petception)
The current working man, is now paying into a pension fund, and might even buy some shares, and has now become politically aware.

The underclass have become left behind, but the point is this, they either dont vote, dont trust labour, or there arnt enough of them to swing elections.

While mortgage rates are low, no one wants to rock the boat, and they are happy to put up with Boris in no10, for all his faults, If mortgage rates rise and people are losing their homes then Boris and the Torys are out.
Its brutal, put it's the truth.

If the working man has is own home, has an active pension fund, can run a car, have a holiday etc he ain't voting for a labour party he sees as being a socialist far left party.

Labour needs to modernise and appeal to this new "middle England " class, because they are the ones who are now voting en mass.

You’ve just described middle England and the classic Tory voter for the last 60 years. What’s different now is those without assets are voting Tory.

Also, home ownership rates only started going up after years of dropping under the Tories, they’re still below 2010 levels now so mortgage rates aren’t likely a massive factor.

It’s Brexit and COVID wot did it. I worry Brexit is to Labour in 2021 what Thatcher was to the Tories from about 1990-2010

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Hancock just on radio 4. The johnson government delivers. Delivered Brexit, supported the nhs and delivered on the vaccines. In answer to why after 11 years there is still no solution to social care. And no one is listening and no one cares until they need help from social care. Nandy spoke well and is the future of the politics I want to be a part of. I despair at the current level of accountability expected from our current government

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Hancock just on radio 4. The johnson government delivers. Delivered Brexit, supported the nhs and delivered on the vaccines. In answer to why after 11 years there is still no solution to social care. And no one is listening and no one cares until they need help from social care. Nandy spoke well and is the future of the politics I want to be a part of. I despair at the current level of accountability expected from our current government

A Tory can say anything and be believed without question whereas anyone else has to justify it within an inch of their life

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

t


You might equally ask why, after 13 years Labour provided no answer to adult care.

We all know the answer. It's unaffordable.

Nope just commenting on the health minister say since 2019 the government has delivered. Well that’s debatable but on adult social care there is nothing concrete in the queens speech and he can say we’ll deliver and that’s cool

 

[PVA]

Hancock just on radio 4. The johnson government delivers. Delivered Brexit, supported the nhs and delivered on the vaccines. In answer to why after 11 years there is still no solution to social care. And no one is listening and no one cares until they need help from social care. Nandy spoke well and is the future of the politics I want to be a part of. I despair at the current level of accountability expected from our current government

Johnson said in his first day on the job he had a plan for social care...

...not a peep on it since and of course no one holds him accountable.

 

[Ian1779]

You might equally ask why, after 13 years Labour provided no answer to adult care.

We all know the answer. It's unaffordable.

If we can find the money to update a nuclear arsenal in an age that will change to cyber and biological warfare - we can find the money to solve this problem.

Whether politicians have the capacity, desire or feel it has the political capital to solve it is another discussion.

 

[shmmeee]

t


You might equally ask why, after 13 years Labour provided no answer to adult care.

We all know the answer. It's unaffordable.

You’re being very binary here, there are many countries which do better with social care than we do whether through mandatory insurance or public systems. The question isn’t “is the perfect system possible it’s “can we do better” and we can. Also whatever we make our priority is affordable.
Even Sweden only spends 3.6% on social care and that’s an outlier. We already get some of the best value for health spending and likely would for social care too.

https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/sites/default/files/media/commission-background-paper-social-care-health-system-other-countries.pdf

Secondly, Labour didn’t stand on the steps of Downing Street after they were elected and say this:

“My job is to protect you or your parents or grandparents from the fear of having to sell your home to pay for the costs of care,” he said.

“And so I am announcing now – on the steps of Downing Street – that we will fix the crisis in social care once and for all, and with a clear plan we have prepared to give every older person the dignity and security they deserve.”

They also didn’t do this:

They did this:

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

You’re being very binary here, there are many countries which do better with social care than we do whether through mandatory insurance or public systems. The question isn’t “is the perfect system possible it’s “can we do better” and we can. Also whatever we make our priority is affordable.
Even Sweden only spends 3.6% on social care and that’s an outlier. We already get some of the best value for health spending and likely would for social care too.

https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/sites/default/files/media/commission-background-paper-social-care-health-system-other-countries.pdf

Secondly, Labour didn’t stand on the steps of Downing Street after they were elected and say this:



They also didn’t do this:

They did this:

Im voting shmmee at the next general election

 

[Skybluefaz]

Yes I do thanks for clearing that up

Fair enough, you carry on doing what the Sun tells you to do like a good boy.

 

[Deleted member 4439]

You’re being very binary here, there are many countries which do better with social care than we do whether through mandatory insurance or public systems. The question isn’t “is the perfect system possible it’s “can we do better” and we can. Also whatever we make our priority is affordable.
Even Sweden only spends 3.6% on social care and that’s an outlier. We already get some of the best value for health spending and likely would for social care too.

https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/sites/default/files/media/commission-background-paper-social-care-health-system-other-countries.pdf

Secondly, Labour didn’t stand on the steps of Downing Street after they were elected and say this:



They also didn’t do this:

They did this:

I think you are completely failing to understand my posts, which are aimed purely and simply at SBD and PVA to get a reaction. I don't need some clever, well-informed chap to come along and ruin that, thank you.

 

[fatso]

The Cameron and Johnson governments have been the Tory's response to the success of the Blair / Brown governments in seizing the managed capitalism ground and the support of public goods.

As Tory moderates, these governments have continued with the Blair/Brown agenda of support for centrally controlled public services (but much less so, local services). And as compared to the Tory governments of the nineties, they run the economy competently (stupid). Compared to Thatcher and her acolytes, they are indeed New Labour.

So if Labour wants to get power back, it will have to find it's Blarite Labour once more.

Pretty much.
I think part of the problem is that it would appear that Blair is absolutely hated by the labour left, so there's little chance of a return to his brand of politics.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Pretty much.
I think part of the problem is that it would appear that Blair is absolutely hated by the labour left, so there's little chance of a return to his brand of politics.

Iraq did him a lot of damage, it means other elements are lost. I suspect without Iraq there'd have been no Brexit, either, mind...

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Pretty much.
I think part of the problem is that it would appear that Blair is absolutely hated by the labour left, so there's little chance of a return to his brand of politics.

And there lies the rub

 

[PVA]

So apparently in the last election there were 6 (SIX) cases of voter fraud.

Yet that’s apparently good enough reason to stop millions of people voting.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

This thread is hardly representative of society is it

And if you asked a general member of the public how they'd expect the conversation to be on a football message board re: politics I bet most would say they'd expect it to be at least a bit to the right.

 

[It’sabatch87]

Fair enough, you carry on doing what the Sun tells you to do like a good boy.

Best selling paper in Britain cheers
Get that chip off your shoulder mate try and see all sides of the spectrum it’ll cheer you up.
Keep listening to the guardianistas I’m sure Jeremy will keep the protest going comrade!!

 

[chiefdave]

So apparently in the last election there were 6 (SIX) cases of voter fraud.

Three of the six were candidates giving false information so not something voter ID would prevent. One was for someone trying to take the ballot box, again voter ID would do nothing.

So that leaves a whole two cases. We must deal with this massive problem urgently and spend a huge amount of money on it.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

No, the exact problem is the opposite.
They are focusing far far too much on the working man.
The old idea of the working man living in a council house, wearing a flat cap, smoking woodbines and walking his whippet is the very reason they are failing.
Those people have become an "under class"
The working man, now owns his own house and is paying 1.5% mortgage interest rate, which under the tories is historically low, and they ain't going to risk that by letting labour fuck it up with irresponsible spending.
(you can argue this all you like, but that IS the petception)
The current working man, is now paying into a pension fund, and might even buy some shares, and has now become politically aware.

The underclass have become left behind, but the point is this, they either dont vote, dont trust labour, or there arnt enough of them to swing elections.

While mortgage rates are low, no one wants to rock the boat, and they are happy to put up with Boris in no10, for all his faults, If mortgage rates rise and people are losing their homes then Boris and the Torys are out.
Its brutal, put it's the truth.

If the working man has is own home, has an active pension fund, can run a car, have a holiday etc he ain't voting for a labour party he sees as being a socialist far left party.

Labour needs to modernise and appeal to this new "middle England " class, because they are the ones who are now voting en mass.

But...isn't that what Starmer was brought in to do? And he's moved them right and done even worse than the leftie-Corbyn? Plus he's had the 'Sir Kier Starmer - hardly a working man is he' when his background is very much middle class done good for himself through his own hard work and endeavour. Which is supposedly what every middle class person aspires to isn't it? So why don't they like him instead of the privileged since birth toff who is Johnson?

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

No one gives a fuck who SETS the interest rate, the fact is they are historically low, and currently that's a slam dunk for Boris.

What happens with wages post brexit remains to be seen, that's for Boris to handle.
If he does it well he will go from strength to strength, if he doesnt he will see his majority decline, but let's be honest, it's going to have to be the mother of all fuck ups to loose an 80+ seat majority over the next 10 years.

Seems about right. Johnson having fuck all to do with something but somehow being given the credit.

Can you not see the difference in perception. Stuff Labour has no control over (but Tories do) and people dont like- Labour's fault. Stuff Tories have no control over but people like - give them the credit.