Do you want to discuss boring politics? (105 Viewers)
- Thread starter mrtrench
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Evo1883
Well-Known Member
By changing ...I'm not paid enough to work out how though
chiefdave
Well-Known Member
I've had the rolling news coverage on in the background at work the last few days. In amongst the parade of political 'experts' a few have brought up pasokification. Now my knowledge on this is so wide ranging I had to google what it meant
The general idea is that since around 2010 there has been a steady decline in the popularity of centre and centre-left politics in the Western world with a coinciding rise in nationalist and right wing politics.Certainly seems to tie in with what we've seen here in recent years and of course matches the new Labour mantra that its not Starmers fault its all part of a long term decline that started well before he took over. However there's another part to this, alongside the rise in nationalist and right wing politics there has been a rise in the popularity of left wing politics. The basic argument seemed to be that people are divided on everything and increasingly uninterested in the middle ground. Brexit was often used as an example which was of course pretty much half the country against the other half and no desire to meet in the middle.
This then brings up an uncomfortable issue for Labour. Instead of writing off Corbyn's success in 2017 as an anomaly it becomes a good example of pasokification in action. When you look at Labour vote share from Blair onwards its quite striking:
43.2 - 40.7 - 35.2 - 29 - 30.4 - 40 - 32.1
Even more so when you consider that the 32.1% share Corbyn got that was a disaster is actually their second highest post-Blair share, second only to Corbyn in the previous election.
Now I'm not for a second suggesting they get Corbyn back in and victory will follow but it does suggest rather than rushing to purge the left and embrace the most middle of the road policies they can find they might want to look outside the Labour bubble at what is going on around the world.
It was also pointed out that in this election most of the few areas Labour performed well in had more left leaning candidates and / or candidates who had taken the government to task. Think there's a lot of thinking for Labour to do.
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
I've had the rolling news coverage on in the background at work the last few days. In amongst the parade of political 'experts' a few have brought up pasokification. Now my knowledge on this is so wide ranging I had to google what it meant
Certainly seems to tie in with what we've seen here in recent years and of course matches the new Labour mantra that its not Starmers fault its all part of a long term decline that started well before he took over. However there's another part to this, alongside the rise in nationalist and right wing politics there has been a rise in the popularity of left wing politics. The basic argument seemed to be that people are divided on everything and increasingly uninterested in the middle ground. Brexit was often used as an example which was of course pretty much half the country against the other half and no desire to meet in the middle.
This then brings up an uncomfortable issue for Labour. Instead of writing off Corbyn's success in 2017 as an anomaly it becomes a good example of pasokification in action. When you look at Labour vote share from Blair onwards its quite striking:
43.2 - 40.7 - 35.2 - 29 - 30.4 - 40 - 32.1
Even more so when you consider that the 32.1% share Corbyn got that was a disaster is actually their second highest post-Blair share, second only to Corbyn in the previous election.
Now I'm not for a second suggesting they get Corbyn back in and victory will follow but it does suggest rather than rushing to purge the left and embrace the most middle of the road policies they can find they might want to look outside the Labour bubble at what is going on around the world.
It was also pointed out that in this election most of the few areas Labour performed well in had more left leaning candidates and / or candidates who had taken the government to task. Think there's a lot of thinking for Labour to do.
Given that it’s nothing to do with policy and all about perception and personality, a charismatic leader and media charm offensive are required
fatso
Well-Known Member
Diane Abbott anyone?
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
5. We took the longest time to recover from the GFC out of the large Western economies.
6. And yet it entered the COVID pandemic very much under-equipped.
7. Teachers' pay was frozen for a decade amidst the 'fairer funding' plan which would see money taken from some schools to be redistributed to others, instead of an across the board increase in funding. Theresa May also included in her 2017 manifesto the plan to reinstate grammar schools, a socially regressive policy idea only blunted by her losing the majority
8. Which has correlated with a higher % of people reliant on part time, temporary or zero hour work.
9. Evidence please
10. Brexit has not been a success so far
11. An arbitrary target set 30 years in the future is meaningless unless backed up with tangible progress towards it
12. He's a charlatan who has put the Union in its most precarious position since 1707
What I find amusing about the list is you praise higher spending across the board which is dismissed every time Labour put it in the manifesto. Why is it one party is held to so much a higher standard than the other?
clint van damme
Well-Known Member
They're not in power, no government is, they are elected to serve the people of the UK!
D
Deleted member 4439
Guest
Frankly, can't be arsed. though I can confirm that education spending has increased in real terms every year, as I have been part of the team that
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
It may well have done, but it is also true that teachers' pay was frozen and that the plan for years was to cut the grant to some schools and redistribute it to others, instead of raise it for all schools. Hence why I was teaching in places where the classroom ceiling fell in and where support staff were getting laid off to make ends meet.
D
Deleted member 4439
Guest
Yup teachers pay was frozen. My pay as a civil servant has been frozen in 7 out of last ten years, and with 1 per cent increases in the other 3. My salary is 20 per cent down on ten years in real terms.
chiefdave
Well-Known Member
Very much depends what its being spent on. My ex-wife worked in the NHS when similar claims of increased spending were being made there while on the front line there was a freeze on recruitment and constant cuts. The extra funding was going to companies to bring in 'temporary' nursing staff as the cuts had been so drastic they didn't have enough staff to meet minimum requirements.
Of course these staff were far more expensive than regular full time staff despite the staff actually receiving a lower rate of pay. As usual there was a company in the middle making a large amount of money. I'm sure you can all work out what was later discovered about that company that was making a huge amount off the taxpayer.
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
I didn't make that point to go 'woe is me' by the way, just making the point that the money spent went into a black hole and didn't get through to the front line service.
D
Deleted member 4439
Guest
Not at all, I didn't take it that way. And I don't think I mentioned my situation along the same lines either, but rather in acknowledgement.
Well the government obviously disagreed with your statistics because that's not the case according to their figures!
"
The real level of public spending on education in the UK was static in the early 1980s. It increased gradually from the mid-1980s to the early 1990s before falling slightly in 1995-96 and 1996‑97. After then it increased to new record levels in each year to the peak in 2010-11. The spending data excludes the subsidy element of student loans from data from 2011-12 onwards. Despite this break in the series there was a clear decline in spending in the five years from 2012-13 onwards.
When expressed as a proportion of GDP, education spending peaked in 2009-10 and 2010-11 at around 5.5%, its highest since the mid-1970s. The subsequent decline has took it down to below 4% in 2017-18.
Since 1950…
Public expenditure on education increased as a proportion of GDP throughout the 1950s, 1960s and early 1970s. It peaked at 5.8% in 1975-76 before declining for the rest of the decade and much of the 1980s. It briefly increased in the early 1990s before falling back to a recent low of 3.9% in the late 1990s. From the late 1990s it increased in each of the next 12 years to 5.5% in 2010-11. A break in the series in 2011-12 limits the comparisons with later years, however, it is clear than education spending has fallen as a percentage of GDP in each year from 2011-12 to 2018‑19. This was the longest continuous period of decline in this measure for the period covered here. There was a small increase in 2019-20, the first since 2009-10"
Grendel
Well-Known Member
Blair rebranded distanced himself from the unions and attract support from middle classes
fatso
Well-Known Member
There's a lesson there!
Grendel
Well-Known Member
I've had the rolling news coverage on in the background at work the last few days. In amongst the parade of political 'experts' a few have brought up pasokification. Now my knowledge on this is so wide ranging I had to google what it meant
Certainly seems to tie in with what we've seen here in recent years and of course matches the new Labour mantra that its not Starmers fault its all part of a long term decline that started well before he took over. However there's another part to this, alongside the rise in nationalist and right wing politics there has been a rise in the popularity of left wing politics. The basic argument seemed to be that people are divided on everything and increasingly uninterested in the middle ground. Brexit was often used as an example which was of course pretty much half the country against the other half and no desire to meet in the middle.
This then brings up an uncomfortable issue for Labour. Instead of writing off Corbyn's success in 2017 as an anomaly it becomes a good example of pasokification in action. When you look at Labour vote share from Blair onwards its quite striking:
43.2 - 40.7 - 35.2 - 29 - 30.4 - 40 - 32.1
Even more so when you consider that the 32.1% share Corbyn got that was a disaster is actually their second highest post-Blair share, second only to Corbyn in the previous election.
Now I'm not for a second suggesting they get Corbyn back in and victory will follow but it does suggest rather than rushing to purge the left and embrace the most middle of the road policies they can find they might want to look outside the Labour bubble at what is going on around the world.
It was also pointed out that in this election most of the few areas Labour performed well in had more left leaning candidates and / or candidates who had taken the government to task. Think there's a lot of thinking for Labour to do.
This I’m afraid is nonsense. Ed Milliband was a car crash and in relative terms to the left in that he had Union support. He lost the Scottish Labour vote and wrecked the party. If David had won they’d be a two party battle on pretty equal terms
Ian1779
Well-Known Member
6 and 7 is bullshit. They might be increases in terms of absolute values but do not factor in population growth for example and other costs associated. Both sectors have lost a lot of money over their tenure.
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
The Scottish Labour vote was lost the moment the party formally co-operated with the Tories on the No campaign. Ironic really that unpatriotic Labour sacrificed itself at the altar of the Union for the Tories to then become the opposition having had minimal interest north of the border for decades
Sky_Blue_Dreamer
Well-Known Member
Hard to disagree with that, even though I find it a sad indictment of where we find ourselves as a nation.
Sod the policy, get in some generic slogans that people can interpret however they want and someone in charge you just can't take your eyes off. Having them involved in a scandal or two wouldn't be bad - identifies them with the man on the street.
Sky_Blue_Dreamer
Well-Known Member
Yet you extol the virtues of the people that have given you an effective pay decrease of one fifth during their time in office.
And you wonder why some people are exasperated at trying to work out exactly what other parties are meant to do to stop people like you voting for the Tories.
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
As we have seen a lot in this thread, deep down most people like economically left policies. What matters more is charisma and the pitch. I don't think many in Labour have charisma but Andy Burnham should be getting primed for the leadership if he wants it.
Combine that with slogans and policy pitches all centred around getting more money into working people's pockets
Sky_Blue_Dreamer
Well-Known Member
But... isn't that the supposed exact problem? Labour are too focused on the middle classes and not the working man?
chiefdave
Well-Known Member
Would he want it? A party divided that's miles behind or stay in Manchester where he's won by a landslide?
Grendel
Well-Known Member
This thread is hardly representative of society is it
Grendel
Well-Known Member
Dubed has never extolled the virtues of the Tories as he? I get the impression he’s by nature a Labour voter but far more pragmatic than most on here
Philosoraptor
Well-Known Member
I hope someone writes a Eulogy to the death of Ed's political career.
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
Not right now, but at the right moment nearer to election time with a few more years of good work in Manchester to build up
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
It’sabatch87
Well-Known Member
I personally think he’d do a good job for Labour maybe gathering speed by 3/4 years time after the next election.
Has he reached the peak in Manchester and does he want a new challenge? The balls in his court imo.
I just find Starmer doesn’t say anything positive or put forward any decent ideas.
Skybluefaz
Well-Known Member
Circuit breaker lockdown last year? Boris ploughed on and killed some extra people rather than go along with Starmer. True leadership.
It’sabatch87
Well-Known Member
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
Any polling done on policies shows the public to be centre left, sometimes further.
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
Near the end of the decade you mean? I had in mind a year or so before the next GE depending on how many times Starmer laughs at the public sector