D
Deleted member 4439
Guest
It has to be said, they've been brilliant at selling the country assets. And the shares giveaway in the 80s was simply fab for the middle classes.
Do you want to discuss boring politics? (19 Viewers)
- Thread starter mrtrench
- Start date
It has to be said, they've been brilliant at selling the country assets. And the shares giveaway in the 80s was simply fab for the middle classes.
Sky_Blue_Dreamer
Well-Known Member
You have to see the negative of some of these as well though. The austerity caused huge job losses, hardly great for the wroking man. But hey, the debt we were amassing year on year wasn't quite so much as before, but still high.
The Brexit deal may have been done but what actually advantages of this deal have there been? Having a deal done isn't a positive when it's a shit one.
I see you didn't add 'competent' to the PM. it's not the PM's job to be fun. It's his job to run the fucking country. If you want to be seen as fun become a comedian or TV personality.
As for the others, who's to say those wouldn't be even higher under a different administration. Tories are well-known for failing to invest in public services, often to achieve the first point you make. For example, loads of people, esp on the right, are saying how the country is going to the dogs with knife crime and further right due to immigration. So if recorded crime is down doesn't this disprove those opinions? Got to also argue about the term 'recorded crime'. Many stories of crimes not being reported.
D
Deleted member 4439
Guest
In fairness, Boris hasn't given me as many laughs as Cummings.
Evo1883
Well-Known Member
On a more serious note , this is keir doing slightly better on social media I suppose ..
Rather than " vote us for a brighter future " , which is just soundbites, atleast he's saying what they did and what they offer .
He has to push Labour policies and achievements openly and constantly
Rather than " vote us for a brighter future " , which is just soundbites, atleast he's saying what they did and what they offer .
He has to push Labour policies and achievements openly and constantly
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
Interesting but not surprising, we've become America
also falls in line with what people say about many on the left hating their country ... not a dig but an observation proving to be correct View attachment 20045
Not fully formed but there’s a wider point about the left and its aversion to masculinity generally, which encompasses pride, strength, leadership, etc.
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
What of the criteria wouldn’t they meet?
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
Fundamentally their ideology is antithetical to government action so it’s reasonable that there’s not much government action to credit them with.
That said. GDS (government digital service) was pushed hard by Osbourne and Cameron and is excellent, really dragged government web services into the 21st century.
The education reforms were crack handed and did more harm than good but the problem they were supposed to address (coursework fraud basically) was real, similarly with some other cultural issues, except there it’s always a sledgehammer to crack a nut. The freedom of speech in Uni thing was good, but at the same time they’re banning academics from talking about topics they don’t like.
Similarly right to buy is good in theory, but then you need to fund social housing more and they didn’t. Some planning changes have been good, but others awful.
Wind power push was good, but came at the expense of more sensible stuff like solar and insulation and on shore wind.
Vaccine delivery has obviously been smashed out the park, but why the dithering at the start?
Overall they want to concentrate power and wealth in the hands of a small elite and I fundamentally disagree that’s a good thing. For either democracy or the economy.
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
It’s not a ringing endorsement if he’s there saying no even if they get 55-60% plus wanting it
Evo1883
Well-Known Member
D
Deleted member 5849
Guest
I'd argue that politically, he's in danger of making the independence movement grow if he denies a vote, too.
Evo1883
Well-Known Member
Unionist parties could always work together and stand aside in certain areas in future to ensure that the snp loses ..in many areas unionists got more votes but split ..
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
He is within his rights to deny it as the last one was recent but Brexit and his idiotic handling of it has made the calls much stronger than they otherwise would have
D
Deleted member 5849
Guest
Same issue more pro EU parties had in the last General Election.
There is nothing to suggest a majority of Scots even want another vote (other than sturgeon banging on about it). A majority even voted for unionist parties in last weeks election. Also recent polling suggests if there was a vote, remain would win again.
Ps agree with NW though, denying the vote will potentially boost sturgeon support but she has limited right to ask, especially when it appears a majority of Scots don’t currently want it
Ps agree with NW though, denying the vote will potentially boost sturgeon support but she has limited right to ask, especially when it appears a majority of Scots don’t currently want it
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
My point was less that and more that Brexit has boosted support for independence which seems difficult to deny
D
Deleted member 5849
Guest
It has. If there really isn't the appetite for independence, let them have their vote.
Only reason not to, otherwise, is that politically if they lose that one, it opens the door for Labour and Lib Dems to reclaim their hold as the progressive parties of Scotland, and means they're more of a threat to Tory rule. Division may, paradoxically, suit the Tories...
Philosoraptor
Well-Known Member
What I have found pretty disturbing throughout these elections are MPs in yellow vests and hard hats.
You can tell by just looking at the photos how uncomfortable they are.
You can tell by just looking at the photos how uncomfortable they are.
Philosoraptor
Well-Known Member
Absolute corker.
Philosoraptor
Well-Known Member
With own branding!
Sky_Blue_Dreamer
Well-Known Member
But much of the Tory stuff is just soundbites.
Labour have been criticised for being negative and pushing how bad the Tories are, now you're saying when they post positive stuff about what they offer it's just meaningless soundbites.
Has there been a more meaningless soundbite than 'Get Brexit Done'? It says nothing of what they offer or hope to achieve in that Brexit deal yet millions lapped it up and gave them a huge majority on the back of it.
Sky_Blue_Dreamer
Well-Known Member
Not really. Tories set the budget so Labour at regional level will be hampered by that, as we've seen. Blamed for cutting services - had to because because Tories cut their funding. And given that the Tories are 'nicer' to Tory run councils than Labour ones it's just going to get worse isn't it?
Evo1883
Well-Known Member
If the attitude is going to be , but the tories , for the next few years then we can't expect change as we already know that doesn't work
Sky_Blue_Dreamer
Well-Known Member
Yes, but you've literally just criticised the opposite approach of 'vote for us for a brighter future' as nothing but a soundbite. Which is the Tory go-to. Remember 'Labour Isn't Working'? Exactly the same message of negativity in the current governing party - lapped up.
Evo1883
Well-Known Member
They are already in power though , they are in control .
Sky_Blue_Dreamer
Well-Known Member
That campaign was from when labour were in govt.
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
So how is the opposition ever meant to win?
Evo1883
Well-Known Member
Evo1883
Well-Known Member
By changing ...I'm not paid enough to work out how though
chiefdave
Well-Known Member
I've had the rolling news coverage on in the background at work the last few days. In amongst the parade of political 'experts' a few have brought up pasokification. Now my knowledge on this is so wide ranging I had to google what it meant
The general idea is that since around 2010 there has been a steady decline in the popularity of centre and centre-left politics in the Western world with a coinciding rise in nationalist and right wing politics.Certainly seems to tie in with what we've seen here in recent years and of course matches the new Labour mantra that its not Starmers fault its all part of a long term decline that started well before he took over. However there's another part to this, alongside the rise in nationalist and right wing politics there has been a rise in the popularity of left wing politics. The basic argument seemed to be that people are divided on everything and increasingly uninterested in the middle ground. Brexit was often used as an example which was of course pretty much half the country against the other half and no desire to meet in the middle.
This then brings up an uncomfortable issue for Labour. Instead of writing off Corbyn's success in 2017 as an anomaly it becomes a good example of pasokification in action. When you look at Labour vote share from Blair onwards its quite striking:
43.2 - 40.7 - 35.2 - 29 - 30.4 - 40 - 32.1
Even more so when you consider that the 32.1% share Corbyn got that was a disaster is actually their second highest post-Blair share, second only to Corbyn in the previous election.
Now I'm not for a second suggesting they get Corbyn back in and victory will follow but it does suggest rather than rushing to purge the left and embrace the most middle of the road policies they can find they might want to look outside the Labour bubble at what is going on around the world.
It was also pointed out that in this election most of the few areas Labour performed well in had more left leaning candidates and / or candidates who had taken the government to task. Think there's a lot of thinking for Labour to do.
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
I've had the rolling news coverage on in the background at work the last few days. In amongst the parade of political 'experts' a few have brought up pasokification. Now my knowledge on this is so wide ranging I had to google what it meant
Certainly seems to tie in with what we've seen here in recent years and of course matches the new Labour mantra that its not Starmers fault its all part of a long term decline that started well before he took over. However there's another part to this, alongside the rise in nationalist and right wing politics there has been a rise in the popularity of left wing politics. The basic argument seemed to be that people are divided on everything and increasingly uninterested in the middle ground. Brexit was often used as an example which was of course pretty much half the country against the other half and no desire to meet in the middle.
This then brings up an uncomfortable issue for Labour. Instead of writing off Corbyn's success in 2017 as an anomaly it becomes a good example of pasokification in action. When you look at Labour vote share from Blair onwards its quite striking:
43.2 - 40.7 - 35.2 - 29 - 30.4 - 40 - 32.1
Even more so when you consider that the 32.1% share Corbyn got that was a disaster is actually their second highest post-Blair share, second only to Corbyn in the previous election.
Now I'm not for a second suggesting they get Corbyn back in and victory will follow but it does suggest rather than rushing to purge the left and embrace the most middle of the road policies they can find they might want to look outside the Labour bubble at what is going on around the world.
It was also pointed out that in this election most of the few areas Labour performed well in had more left leaning candidates and / or candidates who had taken the government to task. Think there's a lot of thinking for Labour to do.
Given that it’s nothing to do with policy and all about perception and personality, a charismatic leader and media charm offensive are required
fatso
Well-Known Member
Diane Abbott anyone?
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
5. We took the longest time to recover from the GFC out of the large Western economies.
6. And yet it entered the COVID pandemic very much under-equipped.
7. Teachers' pay was frozen for a decade amidst the 'fairer funding' plan which would see money taken from some schools to be redistributed to others, instead of an across the board increase in funding. Theresa May also included in her 2017 manifesto the plan to reinstate grammar schools, a socially regressive policy idea only blunted by her losing the majority
8. Which has correlated with a higher % of people reliant on part time, temporary or zero hour work.
9. Evidence please
10. Brexit has not been a success so far
11. An arbitrary target set 30 years in the future is meaningless unless backed up with tangible progress towards it
12. He's a charlatan who has put the Union in its most precarious position since 1707
What I find amusing about the list is you praise higher spending across the board which is dismissed every time Labour put it in the manifesto. Why is it one party is held to so much a higher standard than the other?
clint van damme
Well-Known Member
They're not in power, no government is, they are elected to serve the people of the UK!
D
Deleted member 4439
Guest
Frankly, can't be arsed. though I can confirm that education spending has increased in real terms every year, as I have been part of the team that
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
It may well have done, but it is also true that teachers' pay was frozen and that the plan for years was to cut the grant to some schools and redistribute it to others, instead of raise it for all schools. Hence why I was teaching in places where the classroom ceiling fell in and where support staff were getting laid off to make ends meet.