Do you want to discuss boring politics? (187 Viewers)

[shmmeee]

The state system cannot serve the children it’s already trying to. Adding more to it is going to make it worse. This seems like the people who argued against Farage saying that immigrants need housing which we also don’t have enough of.

The problem for both is lack of funding. And as I’ve said you’ve more chance of that with a bunch of posh parents with skin in the game.

And again, all the pedagogical evidence is that adding high performing students to a cohort has a positive, not a negative effect.

 

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[Brighton Sky Blue]

The problem for both is lack of funding. And as I’ve said you’ve more chance of that with a bunch of posh parents with skin in the game.

And again, all the pedagogical evidence is that adding high performing students to a cohort has a positive, not a negative effect.

In situations where you don’t have class sizes of 40 perhaps. We already can’t attract anyone except the dregs of uni graduates to join the profession, and also lose 40% of those who do within 5 years.

Adding even more to the system would probably force some state schools to shut, ironically.

 

[shmmeee]

In situations where you don’t have class sizes of 40 perhaps. We already can’t attract anyone except the dregs of uni graduates to join the profession, and also lose 40% of those who do within 5 years.

Adding even more to the system would probably force some state schools to shut, ironically.

Explain. Just walk me through how adding VAT to private schools ends up with state schools closing. I’m all ears.

 

[skybluetony176]

Forcing private schools out of business when the state sector is already broken doesn’t strike me as a wise idea.

As if. Private schools going out of business my arse. The majority of private school pupils are foreign, you really think people sending their children around the world for education can’t afford the VAT? Public schools are struggling while we’re giving wealthy foreigners tax breaks, because that’s essentially what it is.

Funny thing is when Finland forced the private schools to close all of a sudden wealthy influential Fins all of a sudden became interested in how the state schools were run and the nett result was when society as a whole has a vested interest in how state schools were ran regardless of class all of a sudden Finland had the best state education in the world. Levelling up some might call that.

 

[shmmeee]

As if. Private schools going out of business my arse. The majority of private school pupils are foreign, you really think people sending their children around the world for education can’t afford the VAT? Public schools are struggling while we’re giving wealthy foreigners tax breaks, because that’s essentially what it is.

Funny thing is when Finland forced the private schools to close all of a sudden wealthy influential Fins all of a sudden became interested in how the state schools were run and the nett result was when society as a whole has a vested interest in how state schools were ran regardless of class all of a sudden Finland had the best state education in the world. Levelling up some might call that.

No you see we have to let rich people live in a bubble away from society or they’ll get scared and run away. Or something.

 

[skybluetony176]

I’ve got no investment now in what happens to them but the finances of a good number are precarious and if they close, the kids will enter the state system which can’t manage what it already has.

The minority of British kids will, the foreign students parents will find a different country.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Explain. Just walk me through how adding VAT to private schools ends up with state schools closing. I’m all ears.

1. VAT rises push some private schools into closure, their students enter the state system. The teachers and staff by the way, end up either unemployed or move out of education.

2. The extra students need places locally. No money to build new classrooms or facilities, so class sizes have to go up to accommodate them.

3. Teacher workload and stress increases further beyond current levels, so the drop out rate increases. School then cannot staff the school day to day and therefore shuts.

As you know it’s workload that’s led me to quit this profession despite the pay and infinite holiday. The wife is actively trying to do the same for the same reason and our schools see us as outstanding teachers. Good luck trying to keep schools going by making the conditions worse is all I can say.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

The minority of British kids will, the foreign students parents will find a different country.

What % of students at Henry’s and Bablake are ‘foreign’?

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Any of the fees taxed to go back into the system system?

 

[skybluetony176]

What % of students at Henry’s and Bablake are ‘foreign’?

No idea and to be honest I don’t give a flying one either. The fact is majority of private school students overall in the UK are foreign and we’re giving wealthy foreigners tax brakes at the expense of the public purse that pays for state education.

 

[Grendel]

As if. Private schools going out of business my arse. The majority of private school pupils are foreign, you really think people sending their children around the world for education can’t afford the VAT? Public schools are struggling while we’re giving wealthy foreigners tax breaks, because that’s essentially what it is.

Funny thing is when Finland forced the private schools to close all of a sudden wealthy influential Fins all of a sudden became interested in how the state schools were run and the nett result was when society as a whole has a vested interest in how state schools were ran regardless of class all of a sudden Finland had the best state education in the world. Levelling up some might call that.

I genuinely can’t think of one foreign pupil at the school mine went to

 

[shmmeee]

1. VAT rises push some private schools into closure, their students enter the state system. The teachers and staff by the way, end up either unemployed or move out of education.

2. The extra students need places locally. No money to build new classrooms or facilities, so class sizes have to go up to accommodate them.

3. Teacher workload and stress increases further beyond current levels, so the drop out rate increases. School then cannot staff the school day to day and therefore shuts.

As you know it’s workload that’s led me to quit this profession despite the pay and infinite holiday. The wife is actively trying to do the same for the same reason and our schools see us as outstanding teachers. Good luck trying to keep schools going by making the conditions worse is all I can say.

Why would VAT rises push schools to close? Do you have any evidence of this being a thing? 80% of a schools costs are staff, these scale linearly with number of students.

If we can’t cope with an average of 20 kids a school or about four a year we should probably be looking at a one child policy let alone keeping private schools tax free to reduce the burden!

 

[shmmeee]

Why would VAT rises push schools to close? Do you have any evidence of this being a thing? 80% of a schools costs are staff, these scale linearly with number of students.

If we can’t cope with an average of 20 kids a school or about four a year we should probably be looking at a one child policy let alone keeping private schools tax free to reduce the burden!

And that’s if all of them close! I’m assuming that’s not your claim? So in reality how many new kids do you expect to turn up at these schools post policy change?

 

[Grendel]

No idea and to be honest I don’t give a flying one either. The fact is majority of private school students overall in the UK are foreign and we’re giving wealthy foreigners tax brakes at the expense of the public purse that pays for state education.

90% are from the uk

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Why would VAT rises push schools to close? Do you have any evidence of this being a thing? 80% of a schools costs are staff, these scale linearly with number of students.

If we can’t cope with an average of 20 kids a school or about four a year we should probably be looking at a one child policy let alone keeping private schools tax free to reduce the burden!

I do have significant knowledge of one locally which I can’t share, could by PM. Nationally, a big one is teacher’s pensions. In the state sector the government fully funds increases to the employer contribution, private schools have to fund it themselves. Given that there is another big increase to this forecast next year, a lot of private schools are trying to either leave the scheme or lay people off.

If you add on 20% VAT to these places it will force some to go under. What isn’t a secret is the precarious finances of the Coventry Foundation Schools, Henry’s in particular.

 

[shmmeee]

I do have significant knowledge of one locally which I can’t share, could by PM. Nationally, a big one is teacher’s pensions. In the state sector the government fully funds increases to the employer contribution, private schools have to fund it themselves. Given that there is another big increase to this forecast next year, a lot of private schools are trying to either leave the scheme or lay people off.

If you add on 20% VAT to these places it will force some to go under. What isn’t a secret is the precarious finances of the Coventry Foundation Schools, Henry’s in particular.

Then you don’t have a business, sad, but happens all the time. I suspect actually most costs would be passed on and there’s be some consolidation of the market like Bablake and Henry’s have done. But ultimately even in your doomsday scenario we’re talking tiny numbers to have to make space for. And you know as well as I do that of course you can fit an average of one extra kid in per class if it came to it without bringing down the whole system.

I pay tax on the private medical insurance my employer provides. I pay tax on my private transport that I use. Why does this argument only apply to schooling?

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Then you don’t have a business, sad, but happens all the time. I suspect actually most costs would be passed on and there’s be some consolidation of the market like Bablake and Henry’s have done. But ultimately even in your doomsday scenario we’re talking tiny numbers to have to make space for. And you know as well as I do that of course you can fit an average of one extra kid in per class if it came to it without bringing down the whole system.

I pay tax on the private medical insurance my employer provides. I pay tax on my private transport that I use. Why does this argument only apply to schooling?

Because in effect these ‘poshos’ are paying money towards their children that the state doesn’t have to.

 

[shmmeee]

Because in effect these ‘poshos’ are paying money towards their children that the state doesn’t have to.

You could say the same about me driving my car instead of taking public transport or using BUPA over the NHS. The fact is removing these kids is detrimental to everyone else’s education. The only people that benefit are the private kids themselves.

You’re defending a system that has classes of 35 and leaky roofs on one side and fucking swimming pools and horses on the other. To pretend the latter is the one on the breadline is frankly hilarious.

 

[shmmeee]

Anyway, topic switch, courtesy of the always interesting John Burn-Murdoch

 

[skybluetony176]

I do have significant knowledge of one locally which I can’t share, could by PM. Nationally, a big one is teacher’s pensions. In the state sector the government fully funds increases to the employer contribution, private schools have to fund it themselves. Given that there is another big increase to this forecast next year, a lot of private schools are trying to either leave the scheme or lay people off.

If you add on 20% VAT to these places it will force some to go under. What isn’t a secret is the precarious finances of the Coventry Foundation Schools, Henry’s in particular.

It sounds like you’re making the argument that private education providers have a broken business model meaning that their British students are going to end up in public education sooner rather than later anyway.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

You could say the same about me driving my car instead of taking public transport or using BUPA over the NHS. The fact is removing these kids is detrimental to everyone else’s education. The only people that benefit are the private kids themselves.

You’re defending a system that has classes of 35 and leaky roofs on one side and fucking swimming pools and horses on the other. To pretend the latter is the one on the breadline is frankly hilarious.

That’s curious I didn’t see you out on any of the picket lines

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

It sounds like you’re making the argument that private education providers have a broken business model meaning that their British students are going to end up in public education sooner rather than later anyway.

…so most of them then.

 

[Grendel]

Then you don’t have a business, sad, but happens all the time. I suspect actually most costs would be passed on and there’s be some consolidation of the market like Bablake and Henry’s have done. But ultimately even in your doomsday scenario we’re talking tiny numbers to have to make space for. And you know as well as I do that of course you can fit an average of one extra kid in per class if it came to it without bringing down the whole system.

I pay tax on the private medical insurance my employer provides. I pay tax on my private transport that I use. Why does this argument only apply to schooling?

Most private health schemes are VAT free to the employee

 

[Grendel]

It sounds like you’re making the argument that private education providers have a broken business model meaning that their British students are going to end up in public education sooner rather than later anyway.

well your school taught you 10% is a majority

I’d ask for a refund

 

[shmmeee]

That’s curious I didn’t see you out on any of the picket lines

An interesting fall back. I’ve done my time on teacher picket lines. It was spectacularly ineffective.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

An interesting fall back. I’ve done my time on teacher picket lines. It was spectacularly ineffective.

Well it is. If I was defending the current state of affairs I wouldn’t have organised picket lines against it.

 

[clint van damme]

Forcing private schools out of business when the state sector is already broken doesn’t strike me as a wise idea.

Was it Finland or Iceland that got rid of them and saw a big improvement in state education?

Edit - just seen in Tony's post he said its Finland

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Was it Finland or Iceland that got rid of them and saw a big improvement in state education?

Both countries take a more progressive approach to things full stop. Our state schools aren’t in a position to take on the extra numbers.

 

[Deleted member 9744]

Both countries take a more progressive approach to things full stop. Our state schools aren’t in a position to take on the extra numbers.

Yes and the obvious answer is to fund state schools properly.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Yes and the obvious answer is to fund state schools properly.

It is but by the time Labour get in they’ll have been neglected for 15 years. I do think privately a lot of Labour MPs know that private schools are a necessary evil for them until the state sector is repaired.

 

[shmmeee]

It is but by the time Labour get in they’ll have been neglected for 15 years. I do think privately a lot of Labour MPs know that private schools are a necessary evil for them until the state sector is repaired.

This just makes no sense to me at all. Schools hire from the same staff pool, if a private school closes (which is fucking won’t let’s be honest) then both staff and students are released to go elsewhere. It’s just pure cope cos you like private schools.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

This just makes no sense to me at all. Schools hire from the same staff pool, if a private school closes (which is fucking won’t let’s be honest) then both staff and students are released to go elsewhere. It’s just pure cope cos you like private schools.

If I liked them that much I’d have worked in them. As it happens it’s really just a question of our state schools not being able to accommodate the students they do have, never mind more.

 

[shmmeee]

If I liked them that much I’d have worked in them. As it happens it’s really just a question of our state schools not being able to accommodate the students they do have, never mind more.

The problem isn’t student numbers though and if it was there’s more effective strategies than “have an entire private system so we can lower class sizes by an average of 1”.

This idea that if I dropped a private school kid or three into your top set suddenly the system would come crashing down is ludicrous.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Have to say if a private school went bust it'd mean the country churning out a few less entitled wankers, so every cloud...

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

The problem isn’t student numbers though and if it was there’s more effective strategies than “have an entire private system so we can lower class sizes by an average of 1”.

This idea that if I dropped a private school kid or three into your top set suddenly the system would come crashing down is ludicrous.

My average GCSE class size was 34 last year, if you feel like pushing it nearer to 40, you do you. Classroom’s built for 30.

Won’t be my problem anymore but you need to create the capacity and staffing before taking more into the system.