Otis
Well-Known Member
What's that got to do with it? :thinking about:
A principal is a principal and you deal with the consequences of that.
Fisher in Telegraph Today (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Ccfc1979
- Start date
What's that got to do with it? :thinking about:
A principal is a principal and you deal with the consequences of that.
skybluebeduff
Well-Known Member
So how can anyone be sure a takeover is still on course?
Sub
Well-Known Member
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Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
At the fans forum a few weeks ago Fisher said he would encourage fans to speak to him personally about the state of the club-would anyone know how we could actually do that?
We'll_live_and_die
Moderator
I'm gonna guess at [email protected] as that's how the other staffs email is formatted, but this could be wrong.
much love
much love
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
I'd gladly travel up from Brighton to speak to the man if it meant I got some direct answers from him.
kg82
Well-Known Member
Plastic cup and string phone... there's no way they can afford electricity through the summer!
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
No need for a phone kg, just a good old fashioned face to face talk! In all seriousness, if Fisher was being serious when he made that remark, I'd like to take him up on it.
ICHAN
Well-Known Member
Think Tankie could be onto something here.
If they do go then they can say that the council/acl or whoever stopped them from fullfilling there plans for the club and so in the end had little choice but to do what they had/have had to do now and in the past to save the club from extinction, however due to being unable to acquire the ground which in the long term was what they were promised they could do when they took over, they can no longer continue with the financing of the club due to other parties not helping them achieve their vision for CCFC.
This of course will save them on face value as a business as the blame for their failure will lie with others and from the outside world the rest of anything to do with CCFC will be to blame, other than them.
If they do go then they can say that the council/acl or whoever stopped them from fullfilling there plans for the club and so in the end had little choice but to do what they had/have had to do now and in the past to save the club from extinction, however due to being unable to acquire the ground which in the long term was what they were promised they could do when they took over, they can no longer continue with the financing of the club due to other parties not helping them achieve their vision for CCFC.
This of course will save them on face value as a business as the blame for their failure will lie with others and from the outside world the rest of anything to do with CCFC will be to blame, other than them.
kg82
Well-Known Member
It's not really a phone Brighton!
But yeah, I think you and a lot of people would take him up on the offer. What's the betting it was just an empty gesture though.
oldskyblue58
CCFC Finance Director
Taking a guess that player wages was in region of £7m last season (inc NI ). This coming season the Turnover as it stands is going to be less than circa £6m I would guess. That would equate at 65% to a player wages budget at £3.9m. We have saved with the recent departures something like £2m (?) That leaves at least £1m still to find to meet the rules.
- surely there are transition rules for relegated clubs ?
- with those savings then you cant see too many players coming in can you
- even with those savings we will be making losses overall
Rent reduction - say it was halved. Call it £600K well that will knock £600k off the losses - the significance of that means it doesn't free up money to sign players because we are still funding losses or affect the 65% FFP criteria.
Reduced contribution to running costs - well someone has to pay for the power and water - i would guess such things are on a usage basis anyway.
Income streams - well yes would be useful for the club certainly but bear in mind that the first £2m or £3m will be to cover losses anticipated. Otherwise you have to expect SISU to keep putting in £2m or £3m per year just to keep going and pay the bills.......... which means they wont put money in to invest in players because they struggle to finance the club now. Also increased income streams have increased costs associated with it so any new income is not clear profit
Effect of new income on FFP. Well yes every £1m pa increase in turnover allows us to increase the player budget by £650K pa - if we spend to that and assume no costs associated with the new income that means our losses decrease by £350K pa. TF and SISU keep going on about breakeven and sustainability....... so are they going to significantly increase costs even if turnover goes up ?
Apparently according to TF to get promoted we need a player budget circa £6m - that equates to £9.2m Turnover (or what we had in the accounts to 2010). Say after reducing rent etc there are £3.5m other costs then breakeven isn't far off if £9.2m achieved. but can it be in League 1?
Trouble is that turnover is likely only if the club is successful. I would guess the player budget FFP 65% is applied against the last financial years figures - that may work to our advantage next year when in League 1 but based on Championship income but if we don't go up its the next year that will really hurt in terms of player budget
Think we are being prepared for a number of mediocre years in League 1 ..... can only hope it isnt worse than that
I really would like someone like TF or SISU to explain why it has taken 5 years to even start to address issues that were known before they took the club on
- surely there are transition rules for relegated clubs ?
- with those savings then you cant see too many players coming in can you
- even with those savings we will be making losses overall
Rent reduction - say it was halved. Call it £600K well that will knock £600k off the losses - the significance of that means it doesn't free up money to sign players because we are still funding losses or affect the 65% FFP criteria.
Reduced contribution to running costs - well someone has to pay for the power and water - i would guess such things are on a usage basis anyway.
Income streams - well yes would be useful for the club certainly but bear in mind that the first £2m or £3m will be to cover losses anticipated. Otherwise you have to expect SISU to keep putting in £2m or £3m per year just to keep going and pay the bills.......... which means they wont put money in to invest in players because they struggle to finance the club now. Also increased income streams have increased costs associated with it so any new income is not clear profit
Effect of new income on FFP. Well yes every £1m pa increase in turnover allows us to increase the player budget by £650K pa - if we spend to that and assume no costs associated with the new income that means our losses decrease by £350K pa. TF and SISU keep going on about breakeven and sustainability....... so are they going to significantly increase costs even if turnover goes up ?
Apparently according to TF to get promoted we need a player budget circa £6m - that equates to £9.2m Turnover (or what we had in the accounts to 2010). Say after reducing rent etc there are £3.5m other costs then breakeven isn't far off if £9.2m achieved. but can it be in League 1?
Trouble is that turnover is likely only if the club is successful. I would guess the player budget FFP 65% is applied against the last financial years figures - that may work to our advantage next year when in League 1 but based on Championship income but if we don't go up its the next year that will really hurt in terms of player budget
Think we are being prepared for a number of mediocre years in League 1 ..... can only hope it isnt worse than that
I really would like someone like TF or SISU to explain why it has taken 5 years to even start to address issues that were known before they took the club on
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covcity4life
Well-Known Member
i wish sisu wud stfu at least if they are gonna run the club like this
false promises on the day we get relegated dont help
add tim fisher to the knob list
false promises on the day we get relegated dont help
add tim fisher to the knob list
We'll_live_and_die
Moderator
What a well constructed post and the perfect follow up to OSB. thanks for your contribution.
much love
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
Only way to tell is to either e-mail him directly or contact the club; either way, it's worth making the attempt
oldskyblue58
CCFC Finance Director
to summarise TF
Unless ACL and its shareholders give up income then there is no long term future to the club
TF was written a carefully worded piece to the CT applauding the "help" he is getting from Council and Charity and making it clear that it will be down to them now if the club fails.
TF also says income is the key but stops short of actually committing funds to team building even if income increases. Because there is unlikely to be any significant funds for team building then don't expect promotion.
TF also promotes JS as some sort of saviour of our club and suggests we should all be pulling the same way ....... so long as it is their way. Fans should trust and support them because they know what they are doing (£40m of underachieving and bad management suggests otherwise Tim)
my own closing thought ...........
Whilst I welcome communication .......... and the ongoing talks ........ do you not feel that these written press releases are designed to give ACL, Council & Charity no where to go other than where SISU want ?
Unless ACL and its shareholders give up income then there is no long term future to the club
TF was written a carefully worded piece to the CT applauding the "help" he is getting from Council and Charity and making it clear that it will be down to them now if the club fails.
TF also says income is the key but stops short of actually committing funds to team building even if income increases. Because there is unlikely to be any significant funds for team building then don't expect promotion.
TF also promotes JS as some sort of saviour of our club and suggests we should all be pulling the same way ....... so long as it is their way. Fans should trust and support them because they know what they are doing (£40m of underachieving and bad management suggests otherwise Tim)
my own closing thought ...........
Whilst I welcome communication .......... and the ongoing talks ........ do you not feel that these written press releases are designed to give ACL, Council & Charity no where to go other than where SISU want ?
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kg82
Well-Known Member
In my opinion OSB, that's exactly what they're doing. Like I said, I'm getting tired of this sort of crap in the paper in which every story seems to read like a lttle kid having a tantrum because they're not getting their own way. Granted, a very muted and clever tantrum but a tantrum nonetheless!
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
He's an intelligent and devious man who thinks he can manipulate the situation to his advantage by piling the responsibility onto ACL's shoulders. He also assumes that the majority of fans won't dig further into what he says or behind the scenes and will hence buy more into what he's putting in the Telegraph. Every article such as this is an insult to the intelligence of the fans and takes away the paper's credibility to source proper news.
ashbyjan
Well-Known Member
If proposed new Trust could organise a Q and A session with Fisher and maybe council rep and Higgs Charity rep would people be interested in attending? Would have to be an evening and not during day like the one they did at Herbert gallery. No promises etc just gauging interest. No preselected questions or any such rollox - just a proper forum with the people deciding the future of OUR club.
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
Would be 100% behind that Jan.
Glaziers green top
New Member
I'd walk from Bournemouth for the opportunity to to have an open forum with these muppets!
Otis
Well-Known Member
Now on page 9 or 10 in this thread and noone has offered any real positive words, so I know I am a gate crasher to this bashing party.
Yet, in safe distance and using my monitor as a shield, I think I will offer an alternative view.
I read the interview before coming on this forum, so I really didn't have a biased expectation.
So after reading the interview carefully I have to say I was quite encouraged. TF addressed issues I have been pointing out over the last 1½ year:
The need to break-even to survive
The need to find new income streams
The need to address the FFP regulation
Those three issues are closely connected. We need higher revenues to both counter the continuing losses and to be able to have a competitive wage budget under the FFP regulations.
We need to break-even as only then we are an interesting candidate for any potential investors.
Lowering the rent will of course help towards reaching break-even, but won't help in having a copetitive wage budget under FFP. And a simple rent reduction is a tough one to swallow for the stadium owners. I have argued that over the last years interest rates have come down significantly and the Ricoh owners must have benefitted from this. At the very least some of their savings should benefit the club.
But I don't think that's what is on the agenda. I have a feeling they are looking for solution where the club gets a 33% ownership of the club. Not for free as some suggests, but paid by a new investment fund setup by sisu. This way all existing parties will retain a share of the fun and invitations to the VIP lounges. But more importantly, this will really establish the shared responsibility to turn around the clubs fortune.
OSB make some valid points about the clubs financial life in league one and suggests that even if we get some new revenues and a rent reduction, that won't be enough to stop the need for more sisu money to cover losses. I wonder if those calculations include the non-cashflow positions like player amortizations and asset depreciations?
I am warming to TF. He says the right things.
He may have said he would ask for a bounce back budget in the minutes after relegation was confirmed, but he has clearly been told by sisu, that break-even is priority no 1 and 'send-more-money' postcards will not even be read. That to me suggests that JS has now taken total control - and that is what has really changed over the last month.
Yet, in safe distance and using my monitor as a shield, I think I will offer an alternative view.
I read the interview before coming on this forum, so I really didn't have a biased expectation.
So after reading the interview carefully I have to say I was quite encouraged. TF addressed issues I have been pointing out over the last 1½ year:
The need to break-even to survive
The need to find new income streams
The need to address the FFP regulation
Those three issues are closely connected. We need higher revenues to both counter the continuing losses and to be able to have a competitive wage budget under the FFP regulations.
We need to break-even as only then we are an interesting candidate for any potential investors.
Lowering the rent will of course help towards reaching break-even, but won't help in having a copetitive wage budget under FFP. And a simple rent reduction is a tough one to swallow for the stadium owners. I have argued that over the last years interest rates have come down significantly and the Ricoh owners must have benefitted from this. At the very least some of their savings should benefit the club.
But I don't think that's what is on the agenda. I have a feeling they are looking for solution where the club gets a 33% ownership of the club. Not for free as some suggests, but paid by a new investment fund setup by sisu. This way all existing parties will retain a share of the fun and invitations to the VIP lounges. But more importantly, this will really establish the shared responsibility to turn around the clubs fortune.
OSB make some valid points about the clubs financial life in league one and suggests that even if we get some new revenues and a rent reduction, that won't be enough to stop the need for more sisu money to cover losses. I wonder if those calculations include the non-cashflow positions like player amortizations and asset depreciations?
I am warming to TF. He says the right things.
He may have said he would ask for a bounce back budget in the minutes after relegation was confirmed, but he has clearly been told by sisu, that break-even is priority no 1 and 'send-more-money' postcards will not even be read. That to me suggests that JS has now taken total control - and that is what has really changed over the last month.
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Mumford and Daughter
New Member
Wonder if torchmatic and other sisu lovers will somehow spin this ridiculous arcticle
Sub
Well-Known Member
everybody is entitled to their opion and can see a different veiw point on the same subject, unfortunatly for me i think you are deluded on this one godiva i really do there will be no investment in the squad again players will be sold and they are trying to use every trick in the book for leverage to gain the stadium, can you not see that ???
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mattylad
Member
Otis you asked what had changed since last Thursday!!! you cant then quantify it by trying to use a quote from weeks ago just bcos its in todays paper. :facepalm:
Otis
Well-Known Member
Errrm..... your post was
this is just yet more posturing to get a share in the ricoh, it doesn't change anything from where we were yesterday, last week or last month.
:thinking about:
You're saying that nothing has changed from as far back as last month and if you read Tim Fisher's comments they have changed from even 3 weeks ago.
Mumford and Daughter
New Member
What I see is another 10 years of mediocre football. RIP CCFC. If you think that's a positive then are you a fan? Because as a fan im not happy about what vibes are coming out of the club. If they have no money how can thy afford half the ground?
mattylad
Member
Again that was posturing bcos at the time it suited what people wanted to hear, do you not see that all SISU have been interested in is building a scenario where they get a share of the Ricoh on the cheap
kg82
Well-Known Member
Look, I don't agree with Godiva's point but how does having an alternative view about the behind the scenes stuff mean his support of the team is in question?
oldskyblue58
CCFC Finance Director
Just to answer your query Godiva - if we are looking at CCFC Ltd which is what it is all about - then the only assets to be depreciated or amortised are player contracts. Can not think of many contracts that are still the original ones where we paid a fee other than Cody. So the write down costs per annum as it presently stands is a lot less than £500K ie not the millions of previous years.
I agree TF does say the right things ..... that I think is the point a lot of people are driving at, because the" said right things" dont seem to become the" real right things". If you look at what is behind what he says then there are a lot of contradictions and I am uncomfortable with that.
I also think nearly everyone buys into the financial realities and what needs to be done. Yes we do need to look forward from here I accept that, but had they dealt with it properly from the off they wouldn't have needed to loan £40m to the company. They are holding the £40m as a "look what we have done for CCFC" when in reality CCFC now owe a big chunk of that money because of the mess the owners and directors have made of it over the last 5 years.
Glossing over with yes there were mistakes made but it wasn't all us doesn't really cut it after 5 years of ownership.
Said before I would like TF to explain in detail what he thinks those mistakes have been.... i bet it will never happen
Also would suggest that everyone holds on to the thought that the driving force of any hedge fund is money ............. SISU and their clients are not here for some altruistic motive....... it was is and always will be about the money. Dont get me wrong I have no problem with the concept of earning profits and money but lets keep it real not dress it up as being good to the supporters
I agree TF does say the right things ..... that I think is the point a lot of people are driving at, because the" said right things" dont seem to become the" real right things". If you look at what is behind what he says then there are a lot of contradictions and I am uncomfortable with that.
I also think nearly everyone buys into the financial realities and what needs to be done. Yes we do need to look forward from here I accept that, but had they dealt with it properly from the off they wouldn't have needed to loan £40m to the company. They are holding the £40m as a "look what we have done for CCFC" when in reality CCFC now owe a big chunk of that money because of the mess the owners and directors have made of it over the last 5 years.
Glossing over with yes there were mistakes made but it wasn't all us doesn't really cut it after 5 years of ownership.
Said before I would like TF to explain in detail what he thinks those mistakes have been.... i bet it will never happen
Also would suggest that everyone holds on to the thought that the driving force of any hedge fund is money ............. SISU and their clients are not here for some altruistic motive....... it was is and always will be about the money. Dont get me wrong I have no problem with the concept of earning profits and money but lets keep it real not dress it up as being good to the supporters
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Otis
Well-Known Member
We are talking about different things though Matty. I am talking about what Fisher is saying and what he said previously, not about whether the end game has changed or not.
We can all second guess what is going on behind the scenes can't we. The reality though is we can only react to what people say and what Tim Fisher has said and as the CT this morning stated, the goalposts have quite clearly moved.
We can all second guess what is going on behind the scenes can't we. The reality though is we can only react to what people say and what Tim Fisher has said and as the CT this morning stated, the goalposts have quite clearly moved.
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