George Floyd (1 Viewer)

[Johnnythespider]

Oh dear.
It's people like you and Ros that stop discussions being had and people learning from it going forward.

It's whataboutery Nick, saying he can't get behind it because it's a rolling bandwagon, isn't that exactly what anti-racism should be, Rashfords meal voucher scheme through school holidays was a bandwagon that rolled straight through the governments policy and changed it, bandwagons are good even the thousands who turn up at Wembley when we get there.

 

---

[Nick]

It's whataboutery Nick, saying he can't get behind it because it's a rolling bandwagon, isn't that exactly what anti-racism should be, Rashfords meal voucher scheme through school holidays was a bandwagon that rolled straight through the governments policy and changed it, bandwagons are good even the thousands who turn up at Wembley when we get there.

Another term like Gammon. "whataboutery".

What is needed is education. Let's not pretend some people try to jump on the bandwagon which deflects away from the important points (see coco pops).

People need to be educated on what's going on that they don't see. I have asked plenty of questions but it's pointless in some cases because people just reply with Gammon type bullshit.

Having Hill explain particular experiences is much more to the point and hard hitting.

 

[Ring Of Steel]

It's whataboutery Nick, saying he can't get behind it because it's a rolling bandwagon, isn't that exactly what anti-racism should be, Rashfords meal voucher scheme through school holidays was a bandwagon that rolled straight through the governments policy and changed it, bandwagons are good even the thousands who turn up at Wembley when we get there.

Agree with you completely.

 

[Grendel]

It's whataboutery Nick, saying he can't get behind it because it's a rolling bandwagon, isn't that exactly what anti-racism should be, Rashfords meal voucher scheme through school holidays was a bandwagon that rolled straight through the governments policy and changed it, bandwagons are good even the thousands who turn up at Wembley when we get there.

There is a lot of discussion on lack of opportunity always indicating racism when it’s actually a class inequality though.

Also it’s the reference to certain child like responses to alternate points which is not helpful to any discussion

 

[Nick]

There is a lot of discussion on lack of opportunity always indicating racism when it’s actually a class inequality though.

Exactly! It needs to be made clear and discussed.

All of the recent action / discussion about slavery but only certain slavery can be discussed?

It's no wonder so many of the "white privilege" people aren't educated about it. The Gammons.

The thing is, the people on here seem to be white people wanting it to be made about politics trying to cloud things and going on about Gammon / White Priveledge.

 

[skybluetony176]

Another term like Gammon. "whataboutery".

What is needed is education. Let's not pretend some people try to jump on the bandwagon which deflects away from the important points (see coco pops).

People need to be educated on what's going on that they don't see. I have asked plenty of questions but it's pointless in some cases because people just reply with Gammon type bullshit.

Having Hill explain particular experiences is much more to the point and hard hitting.

You’re absolutely right about education. We did Roman history on a couple of occasions as I went through the school system including their use of slavery, even went to Lunt fort twice while at school. The Romans history is not a deep dark history in this country selectively taught in schools. Winston Churchill on the other hand. We also did history on the Empire, not once did the slave trade come up even when they started talking about plantations. It was all about the product not the means used to acquire that product.
Then there’s the point I made earlier. The Roman Empire hasn’t left a legacy of institutional racism like the British Empire has wether that be in the US or the U.K. it all stems back to British Empire. I’m 47 and only now is this being talked about to any extent without it being washed over quickly. It’s a source of shame for this country and shouldn’t be diluted or distracted from with ooo look Greta Thunberg, or yeah but what about that Second World War etc
This interview sums it up quite well

 

[skybluetony176]

There is a lot of discussion on lack of opportunity always indicating racism when it’s actually a class inequality though.

Also it’s the reference to certain child like responses to alternate points which is not helpful to any discussion

Class inequality and racial inequality are intrinsically linked. It’s ignorant to the point of racism either accidental or deliberate to suggest otherwise

 

[Nick]

You’re absolutely right about education. We did Roman history on a couple of occasions as I went through the school system including their use of slavery, even went to Lunt fort twice while at school. The Romans history is not a deep dark history in this country selectively taught in schools. Winston Churchill on the other hand. We also did history on the Empire, not once did the slave trade come up even when they started talking about plantations. It was all about the product not the means used to acquire that product.
Then there’s the point I made earlier. The Roman Empire hasn’t left a legacy of institutional racism like the British Empire has wether that be in the US or the U.K. it all stems back to British Empire. I’m 47 and only now is this being talked about to any extent without it being washed over quickly. It’s a source of shame for this country and shouldn’t be diluted or distracted from with ooo look Greta Thunberg, or yeah but what about that Second World War etc
This interview sums it up quite well

What is wrong with mentioning the second world war as well (not instead of)?

As I said, why can only certain bits of slavery be mentioned? Is that because it makes people who are now vocal about slavery uncomfortable about their Hugo Boss or their Merc / BMW?

The discussions should be uncomfortable, thats how people learn. I don't mean education in schools (which you still haven't answered about how it's racist by the way). I mean educating the "gammons" and "white privilege".

 

[Nick]

Class inequality and racial inequality are intrinsically linked. It’s ignorant to the point of racism either accidental or deliberate to suggest otherwise

How? It doesn't mean things don't get confused for them.

 

[Ring Of Steel]

You’re absolutely right about education. We did Roman history on a couple of occasions as I went through the school system including their use of slavery, even went to Lunt fort twice while at school. The Romans history is not a deep dark history in this country selectively taught in schools. Winston Churchill on the other hand. We also did history on the Empire, not once did the slave trade come up even when they started talking about plantations. It was all about the product not the means used to acquire that product.
Then there’s the point I made earlier. The Roman Empire hasn’t left a legacy of institutional racism like the British Empire has wether that be in the US or the U.K. it all stems back to British Empire. I’m 47 and only now is this being talked about to any extent without it being washed over quickly. It’s a source of shame for this country and shouldn’t be diluted or distracted from with ooo look Greta Thunberg, or yeah but what about that Second World War etc
This interview sums it up quite well

Spot on. I don't think I've ever used the term white privelege, not sure where this nonsense has come from. I have seen people throw around the term "race card", which is just ignorant, and I have been guilty of calling people gammon- I haven't for ages (I think) as it was clearly offending people. And racial inequality is intertwined with social inequality, they aren't the same thing obviously but there is a very big overlap. You cannot consider them in isolation.

 

[Alan Dugdales Moustache]

Isn't it about slaves wanting to be free or something along those lines? Sure this was brought up a few years ago and nothing was done.

If "swing low" is indeed a song about hope then there is absolutely nothing wrong with singing it.

 

[Ring Of Steel]

If "swing low" is indeed a song about hope then there is absolutely nothing wrong with singing it.

I didn't see this stuff- who actually complained about that song?

 

[Nick]

Spot on. I don't think I've ever used the term white privelege, not sure where this nonsense has come from. I have seen people throw around the term "race card", which is just ignorant, and I have been guilty of calling people gammon- I haven't for ages (I think) as it was clearly offending people. And racial inequality is intertwined with social inequality, they aren't the same thing obviously but there is a very big overlap. You cannot consider them in isolation.

Gammon isn't offensive, it just makes you look silly.

Racial Inequality is different to social inequality and can be isolated because in some cases people are inequal because of just the colour of their skin and not their social standing. This is what needs to be discussed and people need to be educated about. The majority of us on a football forum will know about social inequality already.

 

[Alan Dugdales Moustache]

Spot on. I don't think I've ever used the term white privelege, not sure where this nonsense has come from. I have seen people throw around the term "race card", which is just ignorant, and I have been guilty of calling people gammon- I haven't for ages (I think) as it was clearly offending people. And racial inequality is intertwined with social inequality, they aren't the same thing obviously but there is a very big overlap. You cannot consider them in isolation.

Throwing around the term " race card" isn't at all ignorant if they are using it to confirm than someone is using colour or race to gain an unnecessary and unfair advantage, whether it's in practical terms or just in discussion. Lots of people play the race card but it's not the same as saying that someone else is doing it.

 

[Alan Dugdales Moustache]

Gammon isn't offensive, it just makes you look silly.

Racial Inequality is different to social inequality and can be isolated because in some cases people are inequal because of just the colour of their skin and not their social standing. This is what needs to be discussed and people need to be educated about. The majority of us on a football forum will know about social inequality already.

He uses gammon because he thinks it's funny just like having an IRA terrorist as an avatar.

 

[Grendel]

How? It doesn't mean things don't get confused for them.

ROS throws out lazy statements and conspiracies with no evidence.

The argument about black people being discriminated for higher education is a myth - it’s simply not at all true

Every statistic tells you white people from certain backgrounds are less likely than any other section of society to attain good qualifications and progress to higher education

Ir isn’t racist behaviour that’s causing that and it’s not racist ro point it out

It’s very obvious there is elements of racial discrimination in many areas of society but looking at it in every corner and in the whole of society is counter productive

 

[skybluetony176]

What is wrong with mentioning the second world war as well (not instead of)?

As I said, why can only certain bits of slavery be mentioned? Is that because it makes people who are now vocal about slavery uncomfortable about their Hugo Boss or their Merc / BMW?

The discussions should be uncomfortable, thats how people learn. I don't mean education in schools (which you still haven't answered about how it's racist by the way). I mean educating the "gammons" and "white privilege".

There’s nothing wrong with mentioning the Second World War. The problem is the selective education. It was the Second World War, lesson ends. It’s the Empire aren’t we awesome, what what slavery, lesson ends nothing to de here. It’s not what we have been saying in education that’s the problem it’s what we’re not saying. There’s never been warts and all education in the U.K..

 

[Ring Of Steel]

There’s nothing wrong with mentioning the Second World War. The problem is the selective education. It was the Second World War, lesson ends. It’s the Empire aren’t we awesome, what what slavery, lesson ends nothing to de here. It’s not what we have been saying in education that’s the problem it’s what we’re not saying. There’s never been warts and all education in the U.K..

Probably unlikely there ever will be either, not for ages anyway,

 

[Nick]

There’s nothing wrong with mentioning the Second World War. The problem is the selective education. It was the Second World War, lesson ends. It’s the Empire aren’t we awesome, what what slavery, lesson ends nothing to de here. It’s not what we have been saying in education that’s the problem it’s what we’re not saying. There’s never been warts and all education in the U.K..

The education needed isn't at schools, my daughter's generation are much clued up compared to when I was at school.

It's the white privilege people like me who need educating.

Which is why I am asking questions which seem pointless because surprisingly it isn't people who have been through it all their lives making comments. It's people making it about politics and don't have any answers.

Random statements get thrown out there with nothing to back them up so others can learn.

I still want to know how my daughter has a better offering at her school then one of her black friends? No answers.

 

[Grendel]

It’s also amusing that the most vocal on here who throw out arguments of race, gammon, Brexit etc are supporting of a Brussels parliament which is now the uk have exited a virtual white only parliament - the uk accounted for 20% of BAME MEPs - there are now only I believe 24 for all ethnic backgrounds and 15 countries had exclusive white representation

 

[skybluetony176]

How? It doesn't mean things don't get confused for them.

There’s been enough studies both sides of the Atlantic into the matter of race linked to class to educate yourself should you wish. Interestingly if you google race and class link as long as there’s been links to it through study the far right have used the the it’s class not race argument against race inequality. Now I’m not accusing Grendull of being a card carrying KKK member by any stretch of the imagination, I don’t think he’s a deliberate racist but he’s certainly used the far right argument that it’s class not race a couple of times now on this thread. He needs to educate himself so he can see his error. Two minutes on google will do it.

 

[Nick]

There’s been enough studies both sides of the Atlantic into the matter of race linked to class to educate yourself should you wish. Interestingly if you google race and class link as long as there’s been links to it through study the far right have used the the it’s class not race argument against race inequality. Now I’m not accusing Grendull of being a card carrying KKK member by any stretch of the imagination, I don’t think he’s a deliberate racist but he’s certainly used the far right argument that it’s class not race a couple of times now on this thread. He needs to educate himself so he can see his error. Two minutes on google will do it.

Doesn't class mean that somebody from a council estate is inequal to somebody line Rees mogg or Boris Johnson born into it?

I don't doubt there's racial equality but I'm trying to see where, hence asking you why the education system is inequal based on race.

Giving answers that are about social standing just blur things. Most of us on here will know about the social stuff in different forms.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

I think it's more to do with a man being killed by police in the last few weeks and although it was in America it's shone a light on worldwide racism which has gone on for generations.
No one is saying we should be held responsible for the sins of our forebears but we can try to right their prejudices which are still evident today.

I disagree. There's plenty of people out there calling for reparations. Why should people who had nothing to do with slavery have to pay money to people who've never been slaves? Ask them if they'd go to jail to pay for a crime their great grandparents had committed and I doubt they'd be as keen,

 

[clint van damme]

I disagree. There's plenty of people out there calling for reparations. Why should people who had nothing to do with slavery have to pay money to people who've never been slaves? Ask them if they'd go to jail to pay for a crime their great grandparents had committed and I doubt they'd be as keen,

That's not individuals though is it.
That's multi nationals that we're built on the toll of slaves.
That's a different story.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

If "swing low" is indeed a song about hope then there is absolutely nothing wrong with singing it.

I do remember being told years ago it was a slave song, but it's not really about hope. It's about resignation and looking forward to death as a release from their bondage.

 

[Ring Of Steel]

The education needed isn't at schools, my daughter's generation are much clued up compared to when I was at school.

It's the white privilege people like me who need educating.

Which is why I am asking questions which seem pointless because surprisingly it isn't people who have been through it all their lives making comments. It's people making it about politics and don't have any answers.

Random statements get thrown out there with nothing to back them up so others can learn.

I still want to know how my daughter has a better offering at her school then one of her black friends? No answers.

It was already said on here pretty clearly that problems aren't centred on school or getting into university, that is a myth. Who is saying that the education system is unequal based on race? I didn't see that, albeit I didn't read everything. Once at university though, dropout rates are much higher, attainment rates are much lower, and after university much less likely to progress. That is fact and you can't say its all just down to racism, its more complex than that as its tied to class & social mobility. If this is really all about educating people then there is an absolute wealth of studies & findings, such as this

The BAME attainment gap is not the fault of BAME students

 

[Alan Dugdales Moustache]

There’s nothing wrong with mentioning the Second World War. The problem is the selective education. It was the Second World War, lesson ends. It’s the Empire aren’t we awesome, what what slavery, lesson ends nothing to de here. It’s not what we have been saying in education that’s the problem it’s what we’re not saying. There’s never been warts and all education in the U.K..

It wasn't empire "arent we awesome" to the overwhelming population at all. It was survival. Where on earth did you get that home made phrase from ?
You can pretend the British population gloried in empire all you like in the war but it's bullshit. Clearly you haven't spoken to those who lived through it, worked in munitions factories, spent nights in shelters. Know a bit before you talk it.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Racial Inequality is different to social inequality and can be isolated because in some cases people are inequal because of just the colour of their skin and not their social standing. This is what needs to be discussed and people need to be educated about. The majority of us on a football forum will know about social inequality already.

There are most definitely cases of people of a similar social standing being treated differently due to the colour of their skin at all class levels.

But if you have a well-educated posh speaking black person and a working class white person the black person probably has far better chance of being accepted by a 'higher' social class and the opportunities that come with it. But have them against a similar white person and the white person will have the better opportunity.

So I'd say perceived class is the biggest factor followed by things like race and gender. But their race and gender will also likely have a big impact on the chances afforded to them in the first place so it's a double whammy.

 

[Alan Dugdales Moustache]

It was already said on here pretty clearly that problems aren't centred on school or getting into university, that is a myth. Who is saying that the education system is unequal based on race? I didn't see that, albeit I didn't read everything. Once at university though, dropout rates are much higher, attainment rates are much lower, and after university much less likely to progress. That is fact and you can't say its all just down to racism, its more complex than that as its tied to class & social mobility. If this is really all about educating people then there is an absolute wealth of studies & findings, such as this

The BAME attainment gap is not the fault of BAME students

What has social mobility got to do with it after university as far as race is concerned. ?

 

[Nick]

It was already said on here pretty clearly that problems aren't centred on school or getting into university, that is a myth. Who is saying that the education system is unequal based on race? I didn't see that, albeit I didn't read everything. Once at university though, dropout rates are much higher, attainment rates are much lower, and after university much less likely to progress. That is fact and you can't say its all just down to racism, its more complex than that as its tied to class & social mobility. If this is really all about educating people then there is an absolute wealth of studies & findings, such as this

The BAME attainment gap is not the fault of BAME students

Read the thread.

Instead of your gammon, random aimless comments you just try your best to blur the lines.

 

[Ring Of Steel]

It wasn't empire "arent we awesome" to the overwhelming population at all. It was survival. Where on earth did you get that home made phrase from ?
You can pretend the British population gloried in empire all you like in the war but it's bullshit. Clearly you haven't spoken to those who lived through it, worked in munitions factories, spent nights in shelters. Know a bit before you talk it.

In fairness I don't think he means the people who lived through it, he means the people since then who have latched onto it for their own purposes. I suspect he means the people you see now trying to invoke the 'wartime spirit' when they weren't even born, whereas those who did live through it do/ did not glorify it at all. Commemorate yes, but not glorify.

 

[Nick]

In fairness I don't think he means the people who lived through it, he means the people since then who have latched onto it for their own purposes. I suspect he means the people you see now trying to invoke the 'wartime spirit' when they weren't even born, whereas those who did live through it do/ did not glorify it at all. Commemorate yes, but not glorify.

Half of the stuff going on in the world is people just latching on and distracting from the actual issues.

So somebody demanding a slavery statue being ripped down, they wouldn't use companies who benefited from the Holocaust because of the slavery? This is why I use Lewis Hamilton as an example.

It's just going off away from the issues at hand, it's not denying anything. Just that it's not going to resolve anything going forward is it?

It's not "what aboutery" either.

 

[Ring Of Steel]

Half of the stuff going on in the world is people just latching on and distracting from the actual issues.

So somebody demanding a slavery statue being ripped down, they wouldn't use companies who benefited from the Holocaust because of the slavery? This is why I use Lewis Hamilton as an example.

It's just going off away from the issues at hand, it's not denying anything. Just that it's not going to resolve anything going forward is it?

Yes but it wasn't one person demanding a slavery statue be ripped down was it. It was a statue that thousands of people had complained about over years, an organisation that owned it refused to listen & see the sheer offensiveness, then lied and pretended the object of the statue was actually a kind & great man, and in the end people had enough of not being listened to. Again- you can read the story all over, that was building up for years- you can't just boil it down to simple terms like that. As for not using companies who benefitted, we've seen things like adverts being pulled from companies- which might not be much but its a start- awareness is rising considerably which will help- is that not a positive thing?

 

[Alan Dugdales Moustache]

I do remember being told years ago it was a slave song, but it's not really about hope. It's about resignation and looking forward to death as a release from their bondage.

In which case you wonder whether anyone would sing it knowing the facts.

 

[Nick]

Yes but it wasn't one person demanding a slavery statue be ripped down was it. It was a statue that thousands of people had complained about over years, an organisation that owned it refused to listen & see the sheer offensiveness, then lied and pretended the object of the statue was actually a kind & great man, and in the end people had enough of not being listened to. Again- you can read the story all over, that was building up for years- you can't just boil it down to simple terms like that. As for not using companies who benefitted, we've seen things like adverts being pulled from companies- which might not be much but its a start- awareness is rising considerably which will help- is that not a positive thing?

So again, Lewis Hamilton demands all statues related to slavery be torn down but is happy to work for a company and take money from one that has too? How does that work?

Awareness has to be the right awareness to educate people, not just give people something else to jump onto now the NHS stuff has gone quiet. It has to bring a positive change.