George Floyd (2 Viewers)

[Alan Dugdales Moustache]

In fairness I don't think he means the people who lived through it, he means the people since then who have latched onto it for their own purposes. I suspect he means the people you see now trying to invoke the 'wartime spirit' when they weren't even born, whereas those who did live through it do/ did not glorify it at all. Commemorate yes, but not glorify.

There will be a ' covid spirit' borne out of the current situation eventually and then the so called blitz/wartime spirit will perhaps have some kind of context or tangibility. It's just really a sense of grit, determination and survival. Why people on here mock it I don't really know.

 

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[Ring Of Steel]

So again, Lewis Hamilton demands all statues related to slavery be torn down but is happy to work for one? How does that work?

Awareness has to be the right awareness to educate people, not just give people something else to jump onto now the NHS stuff has gone quiet. It has to bring a positive change.

I hate F1 but whoever Hamilton drives for- do they celebrate slavery by having statues up then? Someone said it earlier on here, you can’t assume responsibility for things your ancestors/ predecessors did, but you can make sure it stays a relic, done. If he thought his employer was somehow racist then he wouldn’t work for them, I’ve no doubt about that, I’m sure he doesn’t need the money and wouldn’t be unemployed for long. There is a world of difference between that and wanting monuments celebrating slave traders to be torn down.

 

[hill83]

Why people on here mock it I don't really know.

I don't mock the idea personally but I do mock people who didn't live through it and have no idea what it was actually like using it to score political points.
Loads of Brexit dorks using it being one example. 38 year old Keith from Evesham rattling on about a blitz spirit.

 

[Ring Of Steel]

There will be a ' covid spirit' borne out of the current situation eventually and then the so called blitz/wartime spirit will perhaps have some kind of context or tangibility. It's just really a sense of grit, determination and survival. Why people on here mock it I don't really know.

And there’s nothing wrong with that. However I think it’s the people like Mark Francois who get mocked for going around like they were there in Normandy when they weren’t even born. They have no right to assume ‘greatness’ for something they had no involvement in and which wasn’t ‘great’, it was horrific and a matter of staying alive.

 

[Nick]

I don't mock the idea personally but I do mock people who didn't live through it and have no idea what it was actually like using it to score political points.
Loads of Brexit dorks using it being one example. 38 year old Keith from Evesham rattling on about a blitz spirit.

To be honest, most of this thread is all about politics. Same people who only bother with the Brexit thread.

It dilutes the issue and getting to the bottom of it and bringing change.

 

[skybluetony176]

Doesn't class mean that somebody from a council estate is inequal to somebody line Rees mogg or Boris Johnson born into it?

I don't doubt there's racial equality but I'm trying to see where, hence asking you why the education system is inequal based on race.

Giving answers that are about social standing just blur things. Most of us on here will know about the social stuff in different forms.

It can mean that but to say class is the problem not race is wholesale incorrect. It suggests that a white and black person of equal class, equal education, equal job etc will always be treated equally by the police for instance, the black person will never be overlooked for employment or promotion based on race etc etc. If a white man of equal class, education etc to the black man in Central Park who politely asked that woman to put her dog on its lead had have asked that woman to put her dog on its lead would she had have called the police saying she’s being threatened by a white man or would she have said I’m being threatened by a man? Would she have even called the police at all?
Like I said, saying it’s a class issue not race a issue is a far right trope as black people aren’t equal to white in any class.

 

[hill83]

So again, Lewis Hamilton demands all statues related to slavery be torn down but is happy to work for a company and take money from one that has too? How does that work?

I get what you re trying to to say, but for me it's irrelevant.

I work in the Pharmaceutical industry, don't necessarily agree with a lot of what goes on but it's money. Ok Hamilton earns more, but why shouldn't he. What you do as a profession shouldn't have any bearing on your political views. Within reason.

Edit: I'll leave that bit

 

[Nick]

I hate F1 but whoever Hamilton drives for- do they celebrate slavery by having statues up then? Someone said it earlier on here, you can’t assume responsibility for things your ancestors/ predecessors did, but you can make sure it stays a relic, done. If he thought his employer was somehow racist then he wouldn’t work for them, I’ve no doubt about that, I’m sure he doesn’t need the money and wouldn’t be unemployed for long. There is a world of difference between that and wanting monuments celebrating slave traders to be torn down.

I didn't say they were racist, did I? I'm talking about slavery.

 

[Nick]

I get what you re trying to to say, but for me it's irrelevant.

I work in the Pharmaceutical industry, don't necessarily agree with a lot of what goes on but it's money. Ok Hamilton earns more, but why shouldn't he. What you do as a profession shouldn't have any bearing on your political views. Within reason.

Yeah but the irony of it is a bit random in his case. It's not as much the same as you not agreeing with something in the industry in general.

 

[Nick]

It can mean that but to say class is the problem not race is wholesale incorrect. It suggests that a white and black person of equal class, equal education, equal job etc will always be treated equally by the police for instance, the black person will never be overlooked for employment or promotion based on race etc etc. If a white man of equal class, education etc to the black man in Central Park who politely asked that woman to put her dog on its lead had have asked that woman to put her dog on its lead would she had have called the police saying she’s being threatened by a white man or would she have said I’m being threatened by a man? Would she have even called the police at all?
Like I said, saying it’s a class issue not race a issue is a far right trope as black people aren’t equal to white in any class.

This is the issue. People forget how to read.

I'm not saying racism doesn't exist, far from it. The racism part is where people are judged on the colour of their skin.

The class part is where they are judged on their class.

You said black kids in a class with white kids aren't equal in terms of their education but havent answered how....

 

[Ring Of Steel]

I didn't say they were racist, did I? I'm talking about slavery.

Point remains- I'm sure that if Lewis Hamilton's employer had statues up of slave traders then he would resign. There is a massive difference between him wanting statues of slave traders removed today in 2020 and his employer having done something terrible however many years ago it was. You can surely see that?

 

[skybluetony176]

I do remember being told years ago it was a slave song, but it's not really about hope. It's about resignation and looking forward to death as a release from their bondage.

Although that is true it’s also a song about religion and religious songs regardless of who wrote them, what colour they are or what the back drop of the song/hymn are almost exclusively about redemption and being with god in heaven in the promised land.

 

[Ring Of Steel]

This is the issue. People forget how to read.

I'm not saying racism doesn't exist, far from it. The racism part is where people are judged on the colour of their skin.

The class part is where they are judged on their class.

You said black kids in a class with white kids aren't equal in terms of their education but havent answered how....

I just put a link up to an article by Sussex University addressing this very issue, you could read that as a start.

 

[Nick]

Point remains- I'm sure that if Lewis Hamilton's employer had statues up of slave traders then he would resign. There is a massive difference between him wanting statues of slave traders removed today in 2020 and his employer having done something terrible however many years ago it was. You can surely see that?

I didn't say they were traders either, did i?

Pretty sure there are statues.

I mean if I was going to the paper making comments about slavery but I was paid by a company who used tens of thousands of slaves 70 rates ago I'd have a think about moving.

 

[skybluetony176]

This is the issue. People forget how to read.

I'm not saying racism doesn't exist, far from it. The racism part is where people are judged on the colour of their skin.

The class part is where they are judged on their class.

You said black kids in a class with white kids aren't equal in terms of their education but havent answered how....

You’re looking at it through a too narrow window. You have to compare schools that are almost exclusively BAME to schools that are almost exclusively white. The issue is bigger than a single classroom took in isolation.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Point remains- I'm sure that if Lewis Hamilton's employer had statues up of slave traders then he would resign. There is a massive difference between him wanting statues of slave traders removed today in 2020 and his employer having done something terrible however many years ago it was. You can surely see that?

Lewis Hamilton's employers were also brought to their knees because of World War Two, had many of their assets confiscated for reparations, paid them themselves, put on their own website about their use of slave labour, had their board totally reconstituted post-war including reinstatement of people who were removed by the Nazis... it's a pretty facile example to use in iosolation really.

 

[skybluetony176]

I didn't say they were traders either, did i?

Pretty sure there are statues.

I mean if I was going to the paper making comments about slavery but I was paid by a company who used tens of thousands of slaves 70 rates ago I'd have a think about moving.

I doubt Mercedes has statues of Albert Speer at their factories though. They can’t change their history anymore than we can, that doesn’t mean that they should pay homage to Albert Speer like we have to people like Coulson.

 

[Nick]

You’re looking at it through a too narrow window. You have to compare schools that are almost exclusively BAME to schools that are almost exclusively white. The issue is bigger than a single classroom took in isolation.

Then I gave you 2 schools in Coventry which a much higher number of bame students that are both rated the best in the city.

 

[Ring Of Steel]

I didn't say they were traders either, did i?

Pretty sure there are statues.

I mean if I was going to the paper making comments about slavery but I was paid by a company who used tens of thousands of slaves 70 rates ago I'd have a think about moving.

I'd be seeing whether they were still celebrating it & how they conducted themselves now, whether it was something terrible in the past which had been acknowledged & moved on from, or if it was still part of the culture now. You have a very narrow view, its not possible to compare a statue in 2020 celebrating a slave trader to a company who did something terrible a long time ago and which bears no resemblance to the company they are today. At least I assume thats the case that they are nothing like how they used to be, I know absolutely nothing about F1 or the teams.

 

[Nick]

I doubt Mercedes has statues of Albert Speer at their factories though. They can’t change their history anymore than we can, that doesn’t mean that they should pay homage to Albert Speer like we have to people like Coulson.

I'm not saying we should pay homage to any of them.

Just saying if I felt so strongly about something like that I wouldn't work for them.

 

[skybluetony176]

Then I gave you 2 schools in Coventry which a much higher number of bame students that are both rated the best in the city.

They’re probably an exception not the rule.

 

[Nick]

I'd be seeing whether they were still celebrating it & how they conducted themselves now, whether it was something terrible in the past which had been acknowledged & moved on from, or if it was still part of the culture now. You have a very narrow view, its not possible to compare a statue in 2020 celebrating a slave trader to a company who did something terrible a long time ago and which bears no resemblance to the company they are today. At least I assume thats the case that they are nothing like how they used to be, I know absolutely nothing about F1 or the teams.

It's hardly a narrow view to use logic.

Obviously I don't agree with anybody celebrating slavers, which is why i assume people protesting about them aren't using companies who have recently used slave labour? Whether they celebrate it or not.

 

[Ring Of Steel]

Lewis Hamilton's employers were also brought to their knees because of World War Two, had many of their assets confiscated for reparations, paid them themselves, put on their own website about their use of slave labour, had their board totally reconstituted post-war including reinstatement of people who were removed by the Nazis... it's a pretty facile example to use in iosolation really.

Very well put, you can't change history but you can acknowledge it and move on in the right way, thats a million miles away from what we saw in Bristol in 2020.

 

[Nick]

They’re probably an exception not the rule.

So is education racist against my daughter then in this case?

 

[skybluetony176]

I'm not saying we should pay homage to any of them.

Just saying if I felt so strongly about something like that I wouldn't work for them.

But it’s the glorification of people involved in slavery that he feels strongly about. Are Mercedes doing that? Where’s the conflict? If he starts telling people to boycott companies that we’re built on the slave trade then fair enough but my understanding is that’s not what he’s saying.

 

[skybluetony176]

So is education racist against my daughter then in this case?

Only you can answer that one. If you believe that I’d be interested to hear why you believe that.

 

[Ring Of Steel]

It's hardly a narrow view to use logic.

Obviously I don't agree with anybody celebrating slavers, which is why i assume people protesting about them aren't using companies who have recently used slave labour? Whether they celebrate it or not.

Yeas but its hardly sound logic when you're applying the same rules to what happened centuries ago to what happens in 2020.

 

[Nick]

But it’s the glorification of people involved in slavery that he feels strongly about. Are Mercedes doing that? Where’s the conflict? If he starts telling people to boycott companies that we’re built on the slave trade then fair enough but my understanding is that’s not what he’s saying.

Is every statue of somebody who has used or been involved with slavery glorifying it?

I can understand this one where a company was actively defending slavery.

 

[Ring Of Steel]

But it’s the glorification of people involved in slavery that he feels strongly about. Are Mercedes doing that? Where’s the conflict? If he starts telling people to boycott companies that we’re built on the slave trade then fair enough but my understanding is that’s not what he’s saying.

Know nothing about Hamilton or F1 but I have seen plenty saying that the past is the past and that needs to be addressed & then moved on from, whereas having monuments celebrating slavery in 2020 is not ok- that seems pretty logical to me.

 

[Nick]

Only you can answer that one. If you believe that I’d be interested to hear why you believe that.

Well I don't live in an area with an Ofsted outstanding school and don't have access to the same facilities as those 2?

I'm just trying to figure out your argument.

 

[David O'Day]

Watch the David Olusoga 4 part documentary on the iplayer.

 

[Ring Of Steel]

Is every statue of somebody who has used or been involved with slavery glorifying it?

I can understand this one where a company was actively defending slavery.

No and some of the stuff going on was crazy with people showing up to guard statues which shouldn't be offensive to anyone, thats different. And then Coco Pops- for fucks sake. That bullshit is type of the stuff that is a distraction, not whether Lewish Hamilton is a hypocrite, because he clearly isn't.

 

[Nick]

Watch the David Olusoga 4 part documentary on the iplayer.

I'll have a look tonight and put it on. Thank you!

 

[Marty]

Point remains- I'm sure that if Lewis Hamilton's employer had statues up of slave traders then he would resign. There is a massive difference between him wanting statues of slave traders removed today in 2020 and his employer having done something terrible however many years ago it was. You can surely see that?

I think nick does have a point, Colin kaepernick became the brand ambassador for Nike on a multi million dollar contract, a company which still uses sweatshops and child labour. Premier League players taking the knee, again multi millionaires, trying to make a stand while decked out in items made by children in sweatshops, most of them are even contracted to certain brands. Again the premier League are allowing the Saudi take over off Newcastle, we'll be here all day listing what's wrong with the Saudis. Slave labour building football stadiums in Qatar for the world cup, etc, No doubt there is inequality and racism in Britain and the world, I just find the whole thing very hypocritical.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Yes but it wasn't one person demanding a slavery statue be ripped down was it. It was a statue that thousands of people had complained about over years, an organisation that owned it refused to listen & see the sheer offensiveness, then lied and pretended the object of the statue was actually a kind & great man, and in the end people had enough of not being listened to. Again- you can read the story all over, that was building up for years- you can't just boil it down to simple terms like that. As for not using companies who benefitted, we've seen things like adverts being pulled from companies- which might not be much but its a start- awareness is rising considerably which will help- is that not a positive thing?

It is possible for the person to be both. It's not Hollywood with goodies and baddies - it's real life with people having both good and bad parts to them.

You can show greatness in terms of leadership or innovation but have horrific personal views (i.e. Churchill). Similarly a person can show great kindness and philanthropy towards some people and yet treat others with disdain and disrespect. As abhorrent as the slave trade was it is still important to remember the context of a person's actions to the period that they lived. What he did was horrific, but in the standards of the day was not unusual. You have to ask would this person do or think the same today if he'd been raised in modern society? I very much doubt it. Some of the more forward thinking industrial reformers like Salt and Cadbury massively improved working and living conditions for their workers and would have been considered raging liberals at the time. By modern standards those conditions and pay would be totally unacceptable.

As I've said before in years to come people may well look upon some of our businesses practices as being inhumane but are considered completely normal now.