George Floyd (17 Viewers)

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Jun 20, 2020

Ring Of Steel said:
Yes but it wasn't one person demanding a slavery statue be ripped down was it. It was a statue that thousands of people had complained about over years, an organisation that owned it refused to listen & see the sheer offensiveness, then lied and pretended the object of the statue was actually a kind & great man, and in the end people had enough of not being listened to. Again- you can read the story all over, that was building up for years- you can't just boil it down to simple terms like that. As for not using companies who benefitted, we've seen things like adverts being pulled from companies- which might not be much but its a start- awareness is rising considerably which will help- is that not a positive thing?

It is possible for the person to be both. It's not Hollywood with goodies and baddies - it's real life with people having both good and bad parts to them.

You can show greatness in terms of leadership or innovation but have horrific personal views (i.e. Churchill). Similarly a person can show great kindness and philanthropy towards some people and yet treat others with disdain and disrespect. As abhorrent as the slave trade was it is still important to remember the context of a person's actions to the period that they lived. What he did was horrific, but in the standards of the day was not unusual. You have to ask would this person do or think the same today if he'd been raised in modern society? I very much doubt it. Some of the more forward thinking industrial reformers like Salt and Cadbury massively improved working and living conditions for their workers and would have been considered raging liberals at the time. By modern standards those conditions and pay would be totally unacceptable.

As I've said before in years to come people may well look upon some of our businesses practices as being inhumane but are considered completely normal now.

skybluetony176 · Jun 20, 2020

Nick said:
Is every statue of somebody who has used or been involved with slavery glorifying it?

I can understand this one where a company was actively defending slavery.

Interesting argument. The original campaign against the Coulson statue in Bristol was not to have the statue removed but to have a plaque added that acknowledged his involvement in the slave trade. That campaign was won in 2018, two years later the council was still ducking it’s pledge despite even having a black mayor who was involved in that campaign, so much for democracy. Now, had that plaque been retrofitted could you argue that the statue no longer glorifies slavery? It certainly does without that plaque. Bristol has been having a grown up conversation about its involvement in slavery for decades now, typically though those in a position to make the adjustment aren’t keeping up deliberately.

Nick · Jun 20, 2020

Ring Of Steel said:
No and some of the stuff going on was crazy with people showing up to guard statues which shouldn't be offensive to anyone, thats different. And then Coco Pops- for fucks sake. That bullshit is type of the stuff that is a distraction, not whether Lewish Hamilton is a hypocrite, because he clearly isn't.

The same as the people ranting about slavery then queueing up at Nike or Primark aren't, I guess.

David O'Day · Jun 20, 2020

Nick said:
I'll have a look tonight and put it on. Thank you!

The black and british: a forgotten history one, not a house through time which I have just remembered is 4 parts as well and is also really good and the early episodes touch on bristol and the slave trade

Ring Of Steel · Jun 20, 2020

Sky_Blue_Dreamer said:
It is possible for the person to be both. It's not Hollywood with goodies and baddies - it's real life with people having both good and bad parts to them.

You can show greatness in terms of leadership or innovation but have horrific personal views (i.e. Churchill). Similarly a person can show great kindness and philanthropy towards some people and yet treat others with disdain and disrespect. As abhorrent as the slave trade was it is still important to remember the context of a person's actions to the period that they lived. What he did was horrific, but in the standards of the day was not unusual. You have to ask would this person do or think the same today if he'd been raised in modern society? I very much doubt it. Some of the more forward thinking industrial reformers like Salt and Cadbury massively improved working and living conditions for their workers and would have been considered raging liberals at the time. By modern standards those conditions and pay would be totally unacceptable.

As I've said before in years to come people may well look upon some of our businesses practices as being inhumane but are considered completely normal now.

Yes I agree, however the point was why was it thought to be ok to celebrate his actions around slavery in the year 2020.

chiefdave · Jun 20, 2020

skybluetony176 said:
They’re probably an exception not the rule.

Didn't someone reply saying they had a significant additional funding due to being in deprived areas?

Think this thread perfectly illustrates a problem. It's easy to post Black Lives Matter on your social media or attend a protest. Not so easy when action needs to be taken. People want an easy solution, if we just change this one thing everything will be OK. Doesn't work like that.

These are complex issues and the solutions won't necessary be easy. Would a good starting point not be the hundreds of unimplemented recommendations made in multiple government reviews?
The 375 government recommendations Boris Johnson could use instead of launching yet another commission on inequality

Instead we're going to have yet another review and the person appointed to lead it doesn't appear to be entirely suitable for the role:
HuffPost is now a part of Verizon Media

Nick · Jun 20, 2020

skybluetony176 said:
Interesting argument. The original campaign against the Coulson statue in Bristol was not to have the statue removed but to have a plaque added that acknowledged his involvement in the slave trade. That campaign was won in 2018, two years later the council was still ducking it’s pledge despite even having a black mayor who was involved in that campaign, so much for democracy. Now, had that plaque been retrofitted could you argue that the statue no longer glorifies slavery? It certainly does without that plaque. Bristol has been having a grown up conversation about its involvement in slavery for decades now, typically though those in a position to make the adjustment aren’t keeping up deliberately.

I can see that a statue can give different impressions but if it's there and people understand what it represents.

I've no doubt there's some rich cunts somewhere never working a day in their life living off country estates passed down from slavery money.

David O'Day · Jun 20, 2020

skybluetony176 said:
Interesting argument. The original campaign against the Coulson statue in Bristol was not to have the statue removed but to have a plaque added that acknowledged his involvement in the slave trade. That campaign was won in 2018, two years later the council was still ducking it’s pledge despite even having a black mayor who was involved in that campaign, so much for democracy. Now, had that plaque been retrofitted could you argue that the statue no longer glorifies slavery? It certainly does without that plaque. Bristol has been having a grown up conversation about its involvement in slavery for decades now, typically though those in a position to make the adjustment aren’t keeping up deliberately.

The original campaign has to have the statue removed. The Merchant Venturers own erected the statue resisted that so a middle ground of adding a plaque explaining the evils of his life. The wording for the plaque was agreed but then the Merchant Venturers stepped in again and tried to water down the wording on the plaque.

Nick · Jun 20, 2020

chiefdave said:
Didn't someone reply saying they had a significant additional funding due to being in deprived areas?

Think this thread perfectly illustrates a problem. It's easy to post Black Lives Matter on your social media or attend a protest. Not so easy when action needs to be taken. People want an easy solution, if we just change this one thing everything will be OK. Doesn't work like that.

These are complex issues and the solutions won't necessary be easy. Would a good starting point not be the hundreds of unimplemented recommendations made in multiple government reviews?
The 375 government recommendations Boris Johnson could use instead of launching yet another commission on inequality

Instead we're going to have yet another review and the person appointed to lead it doesn't appear to be entirely suitable for the role:
HuffPost is now a part of Verizon Media

So is that not racist against my daughter because the school on offer gets less funding?

(I don't think it is personally, I'm just using Tony's argument)

David O'Day · Jun 20, 2020

Sky_Blue_Dreamer said:
It is possible for the person to be both. It's not Hollywood with goodies and baddies - it's real life with people having both good and bad parts to them.

You can show greatness in terms of leadership or innovation but have horrific personal views (i.e. Churchill). Similarly a person can show great kindness and philanthropy towards some people and yet treat others with disdain and disrespect. As abhorrent as the slave trade was it is still important to remember the context of a person's actions to the period that they lived. What he did was horrific, but in the standards of the day was not unusual. You have to ask would this person do or think the same today if he'd been raised in modern society? I very much doubt it. Some of the more forward thinking industrial reformers like Salt and Cadbury massively improved working and living conditions for their workers and would have been considered raging liberals at the time. By modern standards those conditions and pay would be totally unacceptable.

As I've said before in years to come people may well look upon some of our businesses practices as being inhumane but are considered completely normal now.

Colston didn't have a good side. He knew at the time he would be seen as evil so any "good deeds" he did were recognised even at the time as an attempt to whitewash his legacy.

Sky_Blue_Dreamer · Jun 20, 2020

Ring Of Steel said:
Yes I agree, however the point was why was it thought to be ok to celebrate his actions around slavery in the year 2020.

First thing first - it was right that the statue came down. The way it ended up coming down wasn't ideal but that is the fault of those in charge for dragging their heels on the issue.

But the statue wasn't there to 'celebrate his actions around slavery' - it was there to commemorate what he did in building the city etc. Just the means by which he was able to do so were extremely unpleasant.

Let's say for example it had a plinth inscribed with "Industrialist" - that is indicating the statue is there to celebrate his work in that field. Inscribe the plinth "Industrialist and Slave Trader" and that looks even worse because that looks like you're celebrating his role as a slave trader.

Should we have say Mandela's statue or that or a suffragette inscribed with "terrorist" to reflect the actions they took to achieve worthwhile goals?

David O'Day · Jun 20, 2020

Sky_Blue_Dreamer said:
First thing first - it was right that the statue came down. The way it ended up coming down wasn't ideal but that is the fault of those in charge for dragging their heels on the issue.

But the statue wasn't there to 'celebrate his actions around slavery' - it was there to commemorate what he did in building the city etc. Just the means by which he was able to do so were extremely unpleasant.

Let's say for example it had a plinth inscribed with "Industrialist" - that is indicating the statue is there to celebrate his work in that field. Inscribe the plinth "Industrialist and Slave Trader" and that looks even worse because that looks like you're celebrating his role as a slave trader.

Should we have say Mandela's statue or that or a suffragette inscribed with "terrorist" to reflect the actions they took to achieve worthwhile goals?

The Colston statue just said he was a "Wise and Virtuous" citizen.

As has been said his "good deeds" were an attempt at whitewashing history.

Nick · Jun 20, 2020

Who was it who used Slaves to make Nazi uniforms during the War?

Ring Of Steel · Jun 20, 2020

Nick said:
Who was it who used Slaves to make Nazi uniforms during the War?

You can also see that they acknowledged it and apologised in 2011, just as Hamilton's employer did. Whether that apology was heartfelt/ meant etc is anybody's guess, but they did do something to address it in an attempt to own it & move on.

Did they issue an apology for the statue?

Nick · Jun 20, 2020

Ring Of Steel said:
You can also see that they acknowledged it and apologised in 2011, just as Hamilton's employer did. Whether that apology was heartfelt/ meant etc is anybody's guess, but they did do something to address it in an attempt to own it & move on.

Did they issue an apology for the statue?

I am sure if they did it would have been for PR and a good deed

Lewis Hamilton: 'All statues of racist men who made money from selling a human being should be torn down'

I am sure you can see the irony in him, himself making money from Hugo Boss and Mercedes. I wonder when he is using that money for a memorial?

Slavery is slavery, not OK slavery and bad slavery when somebody offers you loads of money.

Pretty sure he is promoting slavery every time he wears his Mercedes Hat, after all they stole lives from families too.

Ring Of Steel · Jun 20, 2020

Nick said:
I am sure if they did it would have been for PR and a good deed

I am sure you can see the irony in him, himself making money from Hugo Boss and Mercedes. I wonder when he is using that money for a memorial?

Slavery is slavery, not OK slavery and bad slavery when somebody offers you loads of money.

I think I saw that the guy who tried to airbrush the plaque and rewrite history had to go into hiding as he was getting all kinds of abuse, which is not nice and doesn’t help, just shows really that if you fail to ignore the past you’re creating these problems. Address it, own it & you can hopefully move on and be judged on what you do now as opposed to what someone else did decades ago. But that didn’t happen with the statue, and we ended up with all this shit going on.

Nick · Jun 20, 2020

Ring Of Steel said:
I think I saw that the guy who tried to airbrush the plaque and rewrite history had to go into hiding as he was getting all kinds of abuse, which is not nice and doesn’t help, just shows really that if you fail to ignore the past you’re creating these problems. Address it, own it & you can hopefully move on and be judged on what you do now as opposed to what someone else did decades ago. But that didn’t happen with the statue, and we ended up with all this shit going on.

I am not talking about just that one statue though, I am talking about any of them which is what he suggested.

Imagine a Mercedes Badge to somebody who will be alive now and their parents were killed by them or Hugo Boss who was mates with Hitler. Still, it doesn't count as slavery.

You can't just comment on slavery based on the colour of their skin or religion. Slavery is slavery.

skybluetony176 · Jun 20, 2020

Nick said:
Who was it who used Slaves to make Nazi uniforms during the War?

But again are they celebrating that by having a statue of Albert Speer outside their HQ? Does it mean that if you have sugar in your tea you’ve forfeited the right to support BLM? If you drive a car with Dunlop tyres have you lost the right to say you’re not a racist? You don’t walk around Germany see towns flying the swastika and having a march every year to commemorate the leaders of the former Nazi party.

Nick · Jun 20, 2020

skybluetony176 said:
But again are they celebrating that by having a statue of Albert Speer outside their HQ? Does it mean that if you have sugar in your tea you’ve forfeited the right to support BLM? If you drive a car with Dunlop tyres have you lost the right to say you’re not a racist? You don’t walk around Germany see towns flying the swastika and having a march every year to commemorate the leaders of the former Nazi party.

They are celebrating it just by having that name, aren't they?

I mean, the name shown on that picture was mates with Hitler and funded the SS. Looks like there's a nazi being celebrated right there.

It's probably worse than a statue outside their office.

Ring Of Steel · Jun 20, 2020

Nick said:
I am not talking about just that one statue though, I am talking about any of them which is what he suggested.

Imagine a Mercedes Badge to somebody who will be alive now and their parents were killed by them or Hugo Boss who was mates with Hitler. Still, it doesn't count as slavery.

You can't just comment on slavery based on the colour of their skin or religion. Slavery is slavery.

Ok, if you’re saying that people like Lewis Hamilton are doing completely the wrong thing & should just resign then fair enough, that’s your view.

Nick · Jun 20, 2020

Ring Of Steel said:
Ok, if you’re saying that people like Lewis Hamilton are doing completely the wrong thing & should just resign then fair enough, that’s your view.

No I'm saying you can't pick and choose which slavery is good and which is bad.

I mean he walks around in clothes bearing the name of a Nazi who used slaves and advertises them.

hill83 · Jun 20, 2020

Give it rest. You ever wear a Nike shirt? You've got one as your avatar OMG YOU HYPOCRITE.

Fuck sake.

Nick · Jun 20, 2020

hill83 said:
Give it rest. You ever wear a Nike shirt? You've got one as your avatar OMG YOU HYPOCRITE.

Fuck sake.

There's a bit of difference between me and Lewis Hamilton though.

People are saying about glorifying with statues but he is literally advertising their name and promoting it.

hill83 · Jun 20, 2020

Nick said:
There's a bit of difference between me and Lewis Hamilton though.

People are saying about glorifying with statues but he is literally advertising their name and promoting it.

Disagree. You both talk bollocks.

Nick · Jun 20, 2020

hill83 said:
Disagree. You both talk bollocks.

I don't disagree with that either sometimes.

I just can't see how somebody has a platform and says this:

"All statues of racist men who made money from selling a human being should be torn down! Which one is next?

"I challenge government officials worldwide to make these changes and implement the peaceful removal of these racist symbols.

Can then be the face of Hugo Boss, the bloke who funded the SS and made the uniforms for Nazis.

Alan Dugdales Moustache · Jun 20, 2020

David O'Day said:
Colston didn't have a good side. He knew at the time he would be seen as evil so any "good deeds" he did were recognised even at the time as an attempt to whitewash his legacy.

In the same way Gerry Adams became a politician after serving his apprenticeship elsewhere. You really are a hypocrite.

Nick · Jun 20, 2020

The colly is the next target.

I'm white and I've been blanked plenty of times for not having student id.

Trying their best to get celebs and media to mention it.

hill83 · Jun 20, 2020

Nick said:
The colly is the next target.

I'm white and I've been blanked plenty of times for not having student id.

Trying their best to get celebs and media to mention it.

This has been known for years, but of course you are just hearing about it now and denying it.

Wouldn't be going after the place myself though. Also are you actually trawling the internet finding things to be annoyed about? Relentless.

David O'Day · Jun 20, 2020

No one has replied to that nick

Stop finding posts that no one cares about and making it out like they are part of a campaign.

Nick · Jun 20, 2020

hill83 said:
This has been known for years, but of course you are just hearing about it now and denying it.

Wouldn't be going after the place myself though.

I have known they always blag about student ID but as it's happened to me multiple times I just assumed they were dicks rather than it being racist. Like Browns.

Nick · Jun 20, 2020

David O'Day said:
No one has replied to that nick

Stop finding posts that no one cares about and making it out like they are part of a campaign.

It literally is a campaign account.

hill83 · Jun 20, 2020

Nick said:
I have known they always blag about student ID but as it's happened to me multiple times I just assumed they were dicks rather than it being racist. Like Browns.

It's not one or the other.

David O'Day · Jun 20, 2020

Nick said:
It literally is a campaign account.

No it's 1 bloke being ignored on twitter.

1) I could start a twitter account linking myself to blm and make posts, it doesn't mean there is a campaign about everything i wpuld post about.

2) the colly have for about 20 odd years been racist in who they let in. I know people who used to work there, they aren't even coy about it.

hill83 · Jun 20, 2020

I wonder if he'll be using my name to make a point on this one.

David O'Day · Jun 20, 2020

Oh yeah can someone let ADM no point in trying to reply to me as he's on ignore as i think he's a cock and he smells of piss.

Ta

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