fernandopartridge
Well-Known Member
Remarkable statement
Sent from my Pixel 7 using Tapatalk
Sent from my Pixel 7 using Tapatalk
Israel - Palestinian Conflict (24 Viewers)
- Thread starter napolimp
- Start date
tisza
Well-Known Member
Could have influence over China just not prepared to pay the price.eg trade boycotts, stop foreign investment. Money talks.
Western govts openly admit that China is involving itself at all levels of govt to gain information & influence, rampant industrial espionage etc but admit they are unwilling/unable to stop it.
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
And TBF to Qatar IIRC they’re one of the few Gulf states that has spoken out against the crisis in Yemen. I don’t think that they’ve been on speaking terms with Saudi Arabia for a while now. Other gulf states won’t be able to claim there can be no double standards while they either champion Saudi Arabia’s involvement in Yemen or are Saudi Arabia. The Palestinians even in Gaza have it easy compared to the people of Yemen who are at the centre of probably the worst humanitarian crisis in the world right now. Famine, no access to medicine or clean water etc etc for almost a decade.
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
True. I guess the big difference is we need China, Israel needs us. The mistakes probably successive governments has made in not seeing the risks is unbelievable really. Golden visas, laundering money, influence on MP’s including at least one PM. Shocking really.
Otis
Well-Known Member
Kier Starmer is an idiot at times isn't he.
I would still want a Labour government in over a Tory government any day of the week. 100%. I think the Tory tenure has been truly awful ....
But, when Starmer says stuff like this, it does make you face palm doesn't it.
In an interview with LBC on 11 October, Sir Keir was asked whether it was "appropriate" for Israel to cut off the supply of power and water to Gaza as part of a siege of the territory.
"I think that Israel does have that right," he said. "Obviously everything should be done within international law, but I don't want to step away from the core principles that Israel has a right to defend herself."
Now he's said ....
"I made clear it is not and has never been my view that Israel had the right to cut off water, food, fuel or medicines. International law must be followed."
The above is what he should have bloody well have said in the first place.
The first statement was a contradiction anyway.
I do feel he lacks the courage of his convictions at times and just seems to want to please the crowd.
Anyway, I think the whole international community should now condemn what Israel are now doing. There is zero justification. Zero.
This now just seems like pure bloodlust and revenge and an opportunity to carry out some more land-grabbing.
All those poor children.
So many innocent lives lost.
I would still want a Labour government in over a Tory government any day of the week. 100%. I think the Tory tenure has been truly awful ....
But, when Starmer says stuff like this, it does make you face palm doesn't it.
In an interview with LBC on 11 October, Sir Keir was asked whether it was "appropriate" for Israel to cut off the supply of power and water to Gaza as part of a siege of the territory.
"I think that Israel does have that right," he said. "Obviously everything should be done within international law, but I don't want to step away from the core principles that Israel has a right to defend herself."
Now he's said ....
"I made clear it is not and has never been my view that Israel had the right to cut off water, food, fuel or medicines. International law must be followed."
The above is what he should have bloody well have said in the first place.
The first statement was a contradiction anyway.
I do feel he lacks the courage of his convictions at times and just seems to want to please the crowd.
Anyway, I think the whole international community should now condemn what Israel are now doing. There is zero justification. Zero.
This now just seems like pure bloodlust and revenge and an opportunity to carry out some more land-grabbing.
All those poor children.
So many innocent lives lost.
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
So there was no peace accord in NI Mr Jenrick
clint van damme
Well-Known Member
If he put as much effort in to sorting this out as he did into swindling tax payers it would be resolved in no time
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
I see Israel is now accusing the UN of being terrorist sympathisers.
Otis
Well-Known Member
Sky Blue Pete
Well-Known Member
And the uk ambassador from Israel saying we killed civilians in Dresden - um what!!!
NortonSkyBlue
Well-Known Member
And he is correct. We did, we basically destroyed the City.
This is what perplexes me. If a country pokes the bear often enough then the bear will strike back. Israel must take responsibility for their actions and Hamas for theirs but by god did Israel create this situation with years of oppression and subjugation.
When will the human race learn?
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
It’s OK. You did it in WW2
I presume she’s talking about the Copenhagen raid when a mosquito taking part in the raid crashed into a school and some of the following planes accidentally mistook the crash site for the bomb site because of that accident. This was a tragic accident, not a consequence of deliberately bombing one of the most overcrowded places in the world. It was also carried out at the repeated request of danish resistance in an attempt to free danish prisoners from the gestapo headquarters. Plus we never tried to deny or downplay the awfulness of that accident. It’s a shame our government will sit by and allow them to trash our airforce in an attempt to justify the humanitarian disaster in Gaza.
I presume she’s talking about the Copenhagen raid when a mosquito taking part in the raid crashed into a school and some of the following planes accidentally mistook the crash site for the bomb site because of that accident. This was a tragic accident, not a consequence of deliberately bombing one of the most overcrowded places in the world. It was also carried out at the repeated request of danish resistance in an attempt to free danish prisoners from the gestapo headquarters. Plus we never tried to deny or downplay the awfulness of that accident. It’s a shame our government will sit by and allow them to trash our airforce in an attempt to justify the humanitarian disaster in Gaza.
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
What we did to Dresden however was no accident and was inexcusable. Bomber Harris saw German civilians the same way Israel views Palestinian ones.
jimmyhillsfanclub
Well-Known Member
Israelis have now killed more Palestinians in the last 2 weeks than died in all of the NI troubles & 9/11 combined......
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
Referencing WW2 when post war was specifically a period of international reflection and recalculation as to what is acceptable in war is ludicrous.
Got the say that Israeli ambassador is awful, in fact generally all their reps are just bad politicians.
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
TBF not many Palestinians died in the Troubles.
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
Absolutely. And I think as a nation we recognise that. Purely anecdotal but even the people I’ve known who were old enough to remember WW2 firsthand have acknowledged that. This includes my paternal grandparents who remember watching the glow of Coventry burning from Rugby and still couldn’t justify it.
tisza
Well-Known Member
Exactly. Recognition of the horrors of WW2 is what led to the Geneva convention - the latter protocols of which Israel has refused to sign.
If Israel wants to go back as far as WW2 for references then they bring into relevance the comparisons being levelled between the Irgun and Hamas,Hezbollah etc - something they strenuously try to defend/avoid
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
The European Court of Human Rights was also born out of reflection following WW2 and Winston Churchills legacy to boot.
Specifically on Churchill and Dresden didn’t it come out in the publication of letters he wrote to his wife during the war that not only did he regret the bombing of Dresden it was also immediately after when the full extent of the bombing became apparent?
duffer
Well-Known Member
I've got to say that I'm somewhat heartened by what I'm reading here today.
It does seem that the vast majority accept that what happened to Israel was hideous and should be condemned unequivocally, but at the same time most can see that what Israel is doing is hideously cruel too.
My only frustration is that our politicians can't see it.
Shmmeee sometimes makes the entirely reasonable point that what we say won't influence Israel's actions, we carry little clout in the bigger world these days. He's right, but I still want to see us say it. We've got to at least try to stand up for the right thing as a country - and to do it right now, when it matters.
It does seem that the vast majority accept that what happened to Israel was hideous and should be condemned unequivocally, but at the same time most can see that what Israel is doing is hideously cruel too.
My only frustration is that our politicians can't see it.
Shmmeee sometimes makes the entirely reasonable point that what we say won't influence Israel's actions, we carry little clout in the bigger world these days. He's right, but I still want to see us say it. We've got to at least try to stand up for the right thing as a country - and to do it right now, when it matters.
D
Deleted member 9744
Guest
The problem is our politicians are scared to say it because of the backlash there would be from our populist press. We've seen that sort of sentiment expressed on here towards anyone who expresses any concern about the plight of the people in Gaza. Obviously with Labour's recent history the charge of siding with Palistinian terrorists and anti-semistism is one they are particularly afraid of.
Grendel
Well-Known Member
If its just down to UK populist press I assume the rest of the EU are saying it?
duffer
Well-Known Member
Absolutely fair points, but the interesting thing (to me at least) is that whatever some of the press might say, there seems to be broad support for demanding an immediate ceasefire.
I think most people can see that no matter what the right wing press want to say, supporting that demand is not in itself anti-Semitic.
Labour and everyone else needs to stop running scared on this and make the point that legitimate criticism of the actions of the Israeli state and the IDF is not anti-Semitism. Israel cannot use that accusation to defend or avoid the discussion of their current actions in Gaza or elsewhere.
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
Labour cannot touch this politically. You’d be nuts to think Mr steady as she goes get the vase over the line Starmer is about to pick a fight with Israel before a GE. That’s just the real politiek of it. Sad, but true.
Tories see it as a stick to beat the left with like everything else and going full culture war on it looking at the nonsense Badenoch was coming out with.
Tories see it as a stick to beat the left with like everything else and going full culture war on it looking at the nonsense Badenoch was coming out with.
duffer
Well-Known Member
Not saying you're wrong mate, but that surely hurts as much as anything else Starmer has or hasn't done.
I'm also not sure, given the traditional Muslim votes that this might cost Labour, plus the seemingly large scale support for a different approach elsewhere, that taking the government line on this is entirely astute from an electoral perspective.
Who are the Muslims going to change their vote too though, Sunak has already fully aligned with Israel
Grendel
Well-Known Member
even looking at it from a purely political angle what you are suggesting is political suicide
Starmer would be the only western leader or would be leader to take that stance. He’d be targeted as anti semetic and Corbyn mark 2
duffer
Well-Known Member
Maybe they just won't bother voting at all.
I'm always wary here of treating any group like an homogenous entity, but it's clear that there's a reasonable degree of unhappiness at Starmer's stance here, even from some of its own MP's.
Id imagine what’s said in private could be a bit different to what’s said in public though. I’d be surprised if western world leaders aren’t asking Israel to dial it down in private. Calling for a ceasefire in public might be perceived (rightly or wrongly) to letting a terrorist organisation off the hook and dictating how Israel ‘defend’ itself. All have said they expect Israel to operate within international law even though it doesn’t look like this is happening
From my limited knowledge it looks like you probably only get a solution if Netanyahu/his government and Hamas are both removed. Not sure how this can happen though. Such a sad state of affairs
D
Deleted member 9744
Guest
Absolutely. It would be a gift to Sunak. All the stuff about you were happy to serve under Corbyn and Labour hasn't changed really would be trotted out and the Mail would lap it up. It's a real risk for Starmer and Labour.
Last edited by a moderator:
D
Deleted member 9744
Guest
I agree. I think if there hadn't been pressure behind the scenes Israel would have invaded Gaza and the West Bank by now and possibly made a preemptive strike at Hezbollah. But no Western leader can say this publicly.