If, as I just said, a Döner shop doesn’t sell alcohol to anyone at all, it is not discrimination and the owner is practicing his beliefs. But, if someone offers a service to heterosexuals, but not to gays, then it is discrimination.
You say that nobody should be discriminated against. But you also say that it's OK to discriminate against religious beliefs.
And you refuse to see that there is a fine line between the two.
A practicing Muslim probably wouldn’t give a toss what others do. Only a fanatical religious person would ban alcohol sale or not accept gays in a B and B.
Vegans are not discriminating because of religion or sky wizards. They would be selling ethically produced food, which is a bit different to imposing their religious views on others. I wouldn’t feel discriminated against because of food standards being offered.
I could still drink vegan beer as well.
You are arguing with yourself.Tbf there are a lot of Muslim Döner shops here that don’t sell alcohol, but that is not the same as discrimination against people with duty free or against gays in a B and B because the offer is the same for everyone regardless of religion or sexual preference.
If, as I just said, a Döner shop doesn’t sell alcohol to anyone at all, it is not discrimination and the owner is practicing his beliefs. But, if someone offers a service to heterosexuals, but not to gays, then it is discrimination.
You need to learn about religion. Even if like me you don't believe in it at all.A practicing Muslim probably wouldn’t give a toss what others do. Only a fanatical religious person would ban alcohol sale or not accept gays in a B and B.
You say that nobody should be discriminated against. But you also say that it's OK to discriminate against religious beliefs.
And you refuse to see that there is a fine line between the two.
The B and B owners weren’t prosecuted for being anti homosexual
Didn’t say that. Just said if you offer a service it should be the same for everyone.
So I'm a bigot because I'm intolerant of bigotry?A curiously ill informed and irrational statement
It’s clearly you who approves of discrimination not I - “no Jews, no Muslims no Christians are allowed to have beliefs in my society if they do not conform to my rules”
As with most things in life, CVD, it's not just black and white and I sit here thinking there is a degree of sense in both sides of the argument.when don't we? I'm one of the worse culprits!
So you offer a book publishing service and your a practicing Jew whose parents died in the holocaust they’d have to publish a book from a holocaust denier?
Well no because publishers can reject books and don’t have to give a reason. You may mean a printer, but I suspect you could justify that as it is a specific situation. David Irving has had problems finding publishers. Partly because of the negative image caused by printing his works. Holocaust denying is also illegal in some countries.
This has brought a smile to my face.As with most things in life, CVD, it's not just black and white and I sit here thinking there is a degree of sense in both sides of the argument.
You said and I quote
“If someone offers a service it should be the same for everyone”
You now say things can be justified for a “specific situation”
Can you explain what that means?
Homosexuality is also illegal in some countries.Well no because publishers can reject books and don’t have to give a reason. You may mean a printer, but I suspect you could justify that as it is a specific situation. David Irving has had problems finding publishers. Partly because of the negative image caused by printing his works. Holocaust denying is also illegal in some countries.
This has brought a smile to my face.
I have said all the way through this that there should be no discrimination. If two gay people want to share a bed in a B&B they should be able to. I also said that people of any religion where their religion disagrees with this should really do something else.
What I have also said is that it is discrimination against someones religion if they are forced to go against what their religion preaches.
Then we have Otis that says he can see both sides. Spot on Otis. And Mart agrees with him.
So why are you arguing the toss with me Mart?
Yes. It is not discriminating against a certain group of people, but refusing a service to a person specifically because he is in effect insulting your family. That is different to a general discrimination against non Jewish people. Unless you are saying holocaust deniers have a right to be published by the victims of the holocaust families?
Homosexuality is also illegal in some countries.
So what you are saying is discrimination is allowed but not when against certain minorities?
Because some people use their religion to discriminate and don’t like it when they are shown to be wrong. Then claim to be victims.
Being forced to treat customers as equals is not a form of discrimination. It says a lot about their religion.
So what you are saying is that Peter Tatchell is wrong and you are right?Yes. It is not discriminating against a certain group of people, but refusing a service to a person specifically because he is in effect insulting your family. That is different to a general discrimination against non Jewish people. Unless you are saying holocaust deniers have a right to be published by the victims of the holocaust families?
Are you saying that religion and people with religious beliefs don't need protection from being discriminated against?Are you calling holocaust deniers a minority that needs protection from being discriminated against?
So a Catholic could legitimately argue that a non married couple in the eyes of their Family - I.e. God is an insult in the eyes of their family.
Notwithstanding the fact you have already back peddled that “services should be available to everyone” and now seem to say well it’s ok as long as it’s not offending someone’s beliefs. You should represent the B and B owners in court.
And should we discriminate against the discriminators?Are you saying that religion and people with religious beliefs don't need protection from being discriminated against?
Ok. I think catholic B and B owners should take unmarried couples. But I don’t think Jews should take holocaust deniers. I don’t think B and B owners should take armed robbers either, but you will no doubt say I am justifying discrimination by saying that.
Are you saying that religion and people with religious beliefs don't need protection from being discriminated against?
I think I think I think. That’s your argument in a nutshell. What you think is morally and ethically acceptable should apply to everyone else. That’s it isn’t it?
No. I serve Christians and some Muslims in my pub and don’t believe they should be discriminated against. I would hope the law would punish me if I refused them service on religious grounds. I would expect them to be punished for refusing service in their businesses based on religious grounds.
In the sense that I would ignore a business that discriminated against certain groups, then yesAnd should we discriminate against the discriminators?
Why would you refuse to serve them? What religion are you and how is serving them interfering with your religion?
I wouldn’t refuse them because I don’t worship invisible beings. The question of refusing people because of religious beliefs or sexual preferences based on my religion doesn’t arise.
That’s because as far as religion goes you are a bigot.
I am a bigot because I am a non believer? Or because I don’t discriminate?
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