Second referendum : am I missing something ? (3 Viewers)

[Grendel]

I'm aware of him defying the whip, been a pain in the arse to the leadership, but I'm not aware of him calling for the destruction of the Labour party.
In fact, since he's been leader the membership has seen a huge increase so I'm not sure that comparison stands up.

He voted against it over 500 times I believe - let’s be honest he despised his own party and would continue to do so if he hadn’t seized power.

 

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[Grendel]

they do, but not while actively trying to destroy the institution in question.
Especially when he spends all day pontificating about how corrupt the EU is. In effect he's taking what he believes to be dirty money.

Jeremy Corbyn also is opposed to a sovereign parliament isn’t he?

 

[clint van damme]

Hey Tony Blair took a pension and he was responsible for the destruction of hundreds of thousands of people’s lives
I’m sure farage pales in comparison

I can't disagree with that. Blair should be in the Hague.

 

[Grendel]

I can't disagree with that. Blair should be in the Hague.

What about the many times he voted against labour policy before Blair?

If Corbyns principals were so strong why did he keep serving under him? Money by any chance?

 

[clint van damme]

Jeremy Corbyn also is opposed to a sovereign parliament isn’t he?

probably when it suits like most MPs.
He was certainly more on the side of parliamentary sovereignty during the article 50 supreme court rumpus than most of the government.
But again, not sure that's the same as wanting to bring an institution down.

 

[clint van damme]

What about the many times he voted against labour policy before Blair?

If Corbyns principals were so strong why did he keep serving under him? Money by any chance?

lots of MPs serve under leaders they don't like. It'd probably never been more prevalent in all parties than it is now.
I would suggest that by looking at the MPs expense claims that came to light during the expense scandal one thing was clear, whatever Corbyns motivation, I think it's safe to say it isn't money.

 

[Grendel]

lots of MPs serve under leaders they don't like. It'd probably never been more prevalent in all parties than it is now.
I would suggest that by looking at the MPs expense claims that came to light during the expense scandal one thing was clear, whatever Corbyns motivation, I think it's safe to say it isn't money.

Well it was or he’d have resigned and stood as an independent . Same as his camper van lover - I assume he takes his salary now as leader of the opposition. Corbyn voted against every leader at one time or another

 

[martcov]

You would claim a pension for over 15 years plus of work though wouldn’t you

Work? He had one of the worst attendance records, has money deducted from his wages to pay back EU money falsely taken and only attended one meeting of the Fisheries Commission where he was supposedly representing our fishing industry. Scum.

 

[martcov]

There are many people who despise their companies who still take money for them when they retire , means nothing

One thing despising it, another trying to bring it down, insulting the members and using EU funds for working against the EU. Then taking a pension. Scum.

 

[fernandopartridge]

What about the many times he voted against labour policy before Blair?

If Corbyns principals were so strong why did he keep serving under him? Money by any chance?

MPs work for their constituents not the Prime Minister. Ministers work for the PM

 

[martcov]

At the end of the day 99% of people who work for an establishment for a number of years will take the pension at the end of it ... simple

He worked against his establishment and said he is going to try and help other countries to leave the organisation. And he wants a pension for that? Scum.

 

[Grendel]

MPs work for their constituents not the Prime Minister. Ministers work for the PM

He represented a party who he had no affinity to

 

[Grendel]

He worked against his establishment and said he is going to try and help other countries to leave the organisation. And he wants a pension for that? Scum.

He was elected on that premise

 

[skybluetony176]

He represented a party who he had no affinity to

Really? You could argue that Blair, Brown and Co also had no affinity to the Labour Party given that they changed it into Tory Light. I’d say Corbyn is truer to the original idealism’s of the Labour Party than Blair and Brown ever were. I think you mean he he had no affinity to those running the party rather than the party itself.

 

[Grendel]

Really? You could argue that Blair, Brown and Co also had no affinity to the Labour Party given that they changed it into Tory Light. I’d say Corbyn is truer to the original idealism’s of the Labour Party than Blair and Brown ever were. I think you mean he he had no affinity to those running the party rather than the party itself.

That’s utter rubbish - the party was elected to deliver centre ground politics and Corbyn didn’t follow that ideology.

He now pretends to be centralist when it suits him as well such is his hypocrisy

 

[skybluetony176]

That’s utter rubbish - the party was elected to deliver centre ground politics and Corbyn didn’t follow that ideology.

He now pretends to be centralist when it suits him as well such is his hypocrisy

Is centre ground traditional labour politics? Supposed to be the left aren’t they? Sounds like you’re confusing them with the Lib Dem’s. Even Maggie said her greatest success was New Labour. Who was it again who coined the phrase new labour? Blair wasn’t it? Even he admitted that he didn’t have an affinity to traditional labour. Can’t see why you find it so difficult to accept when the people leading labour at the time admitted it.

What makes you think he pretends to be a centralist?

 

[Grendel]

Is centre ground traditional labour politics? Supposed to be the left aren’t they? Sounds like you’re confusing them with the Lib Dem’s. Even Maggie said her greatest success was New Labour. Who was it again who coined the Phrase new labour? Blair wasn’t it? Even he admitted that he didn’t have an affinity to traditional labour. Can’t see why you find it so difficult to accept when the people leading labour at the time admitted it.

What makes you think he pretends to be a centralist?

Oh Tony. I don’t really think that Tory policies are the same as the days that Baldwin led the party and I don’t think labour can adopt a Kier Hardy manifesto anymore. Jeremy Corbyn fought elections under s Blair banner and his absurd camper van lover went even further.

It’s somewhat amuses me as well that you believe someone who represents very much his parties values in another institution should be denied his pension

What do you think Mr Corbyn has done s u turn on since being elected as leader Tony?

 

[SkyblueBazza]

you are, not surprisingly completely wrong.
You can't answer my questions so you've defaulted to empty rhetoric.

It's dead simple, I think leaving with no deal will be a disaster, explain to me why it won't, I've never claimed the information I've got is infallible or that I totally understand the complex ins and outs. You've made no attempt to explain your counter position.

Grappa has given me some names to check out so I will, you couldn't even give me that.

Stick to the sloganeering - it's happening get over it and brexit means brexit - it's all you've got to offer.

What question specifically?

I certainly can't explain my 'counter position' because I am similarly, as you would say, no expert. I get to my 'counter position' because I have a positive disposition & doom & gloom merchants (lazy people really because they only seek negatives. And if you look hard enough a good situation - you will find negatives, and vice-versa) make me sick.

And the sloganeering is the current reality. We are leaving. And all YOU seem to offer is that we are doomed!

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[SkyblueBazza]

I felt compelled to give this post a like because Clint is in my gang

This is so true...everyone see's how much of a love-in you guys are having. Blindly liking each other's posts in the same way you blindly follow the EU mantras.

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[SkyblueBazza]

I can't disagree with that. Blair should be in the Hague.

Which one? William?

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[clint van damme]

What question specifically?

I certainly can't explain my 'counter position' because I am similarly, as you would say, no expert. I get to my 'counter position' because I have a positive disposition & doom & gloom merchants (lazy people really because they only seek negatives. And if you look hard enough a good situation - you will find negatives, and vice-versa) make me sick.

And the sloganeering is the current reality. We are leaving. And all YOU seem to offer is that we are doomed!

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because I have done my best to look at the evidence regarding the conditions we will be trading in straight after Brexit if we don't get a deal and the picture I'm getting is a bleak one.

However, I acknowledge that I'm no expert and that my opinion is being formed by committed leavers, (albeit ones who appear to present sound arguments), so again, tell me why I'm wrong.

Not expecting an expert opinion, just a bit of detail behind why you are seeing things positively.

 

[clint van damme]

Which one? William?

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that's how rumours start!

 

[martcov]

He was elected on that premise

The premise of being an MEP is to represent the interests of your voters in the European Parliament, not to undermine it from within. He should have stood for the UK parliament if there was the desire of his constituents to leave the EU. There was no interest from the majority in leaving. It was a side issue and he got into Brussels through lack of interest in EU elections. Very low turnouts. My brother stood for UKIP in a general election and got 1 point something percent. That was before the growth of social media and YouTube. UKIP came out of nowhere. The rhetoric of the leavers is Farage‘s rheotoric which some people have lapped up without questioning it. Nige delivers a great show.

 

[martcov]

This is so true...everyone see's how much of a love-in you guys are having. Blindly liking each other's posts in the same way you blindly follow the EU mantras.

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What is an EU mantra? Why have you no arguments, apart from that you see things positively, to show that leaving is beneficial? You have been given links to fact based arguments. You have provided none in return.

 

[martcov]

This is so true...everyone see's how much of a love-in you guys are having. Blindly liking each other's posts in the same way you blindly follow the EU mantras.

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Says someone who talks crap and gets a like from Grendel.

 

[martcov]

Oh Tony. I don’t really think that Tory policies are the same as the days that Baldwin led the party and I don’t think labour can adopt a Kier Hardy manifesto anymore. Jeremy Corbyn fought elections under s Blair banner and his absurd camper van lover went even further.

It’s somewhat amuses me as well that you believe someone who represents very much his parties values in another institution should be denied his pension

What do you think Mr Corbyn has done s u turn on since being elected as leader Tony?

Apropos values, do you think that the Tories who voted against sanctioning an „illiberal“ democrat and corrupt anti semite who uses the exact rhetoric as Hitler when describing Jews, were following present day Conservative values? Surprised you haven’t touched on the subject of anti semitism in the Conservative party as you are always so concerned in pointing it out in Labour.

 

[skybluetony176]

Oh Tony. I don’t really think that Tory policies are the same as the days that Baldwin led the party and I don’t think labour can adopt a Kier Hardy manifesto anymore. Jeremy Corbyn fought elections under s Blair banner and his absurd camper van lover went even further.

It’s somewhat amuses me as well that you believe someone who represents very much his parties values in another institution should be denied his pension

What do you think Mr Corbyn has done s u turn on since being elected as leader Tony?

Oh Grendull. Will you ever give a straight answer.

Here’s a simple one for you. A straight yes or no. Is renationalisation of the railways a centralist policy?

 

[SkyblueBazza]

because I have done my best to look at the evidence regarding the conditions we will be trading in straight after Brexit if we don't get a deal and the picture I'm getting is a bleak one.

However, I acknowledge that I'm no expert and that my opinion is being formed by committed leavers, (albeit ones who appear to present sound arguments), so again, tell me why I'm wrong.

Not expecting an expert opinion, just a bit of detail behind why you are seeing things positively.

That is the thing...much of the 'evidence' is based on surveys & opinion...by 'experts' who DO get it wrong as well as right. In fact some of them are only expert at explaining subsequently where they went wrong!

So the answers to the specific question I think ypu were were asking - they have been covered on the other thread over a period of about 2yrs.

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[Grendel]

Oh Grendull. Will you ever give a straight answer.

Here’s a simple one for you. A straight yes or no. Is renationalisation of the railways a centralist policy?

Very much so yes. Transport in the uk has been in public ownership before labour even formed a government in the uk.

 

[Grendel]

The premise of being an MEP is to represent the interests of your voters in the European Parliament, not to undermine it from within. He should have stood for the UK parliament if there was the desire of his constituents to leave the EU. There was no interest from the majority in leaving. It was a side issue and he got into Brussels through lack of interest in EU elections. Very low turnouts. My brother stood for UKIP in a general election and got 1 point something percent. That was before the growth of social media and YouTube. UKIP came out of nowhere. The rhetoric of the leavers is Farage‘s rheotoric which some people have lapped up without questioning it. Nige delivers a great show.

Not true is it. Sick Boy believes MPs represent constituents.

Farage has stood for years on the same mantra and has been elected by voters in Europe elections for 20 years because of his Anti Europe stance.

If there was no interest in the majority then the party wouldn’t be the largest uk party in Brussels would it? It’s hardly cry come from nowhere either it’s grown steadily year on year since it’s formation in Europe and would have grown sooner but for the fact there were two parties running on the same ticket for a while.

 

[clint van damme]

That is the thing...much of the 'evidence' is based on surveys & opinion...by 'experts' who DO get it wrong as well as right. In fact some of them are only expert at explaining subsequently where they went wrong!

So the answers to the specific question I think ypu were were asking - they have been covered on the other thread over a period of about 2yrs.

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Jason Hunter is a world trade expert who specialises in dealing with the WTO.
In my job I talk daily to people who run JIT and emergency transport companies.
I would say these are experts whose opinions are based on a bit more than surveys. They say no deal Brexit will be a disaster.

If there's someone out there who can contradict that with a sound argument I want to hear it. Not sure why that's difficult.

The Economists for leave said the GDP will increase in the event of a no deal but their model was flawed.

 

[skybluetony176]

Very much so yes. Transport in the uk has been in public ownership before labour even formed a government in the uk.

During world wars as a matter of national security. I don’t think that counts. As far as I know it’s only happened during Tory rule as a bail out and then only individual companies not the entire rail network. Labour did it through political ideology, an ideology abandoned by centralist New Labour and returned to by loony left leaning current labour. You don’t half talk some bollocks. You spend half your time claiming Corbyn is a socialist or communist now all of a sudden he’s a centralist.

 

[SkyblueBazza]

Jason Hunter is a world trade expert who specialises in dealing with the WTO.
In my job I talk daily to people who run JIT and emergency transport companies.
I would say these are experts whose opinions are based on a bit more than surveys. They say no deal Brexit will be a disaster.

If there's someone out there who can contradict that with a sound argument I want to hear it. Not sure why that's difficult.

The Economists for leave said the GDP will increase in the event of a no deal but their model was flawed.

WTO is not the be-all & end-all.

And because nothing like Brexit has happened before...all these 'experts' are all expert in the past & are giving informed speculation, which yes carries more credibility than most. But don't take it as read!

And again...everybody wants a deal. One which suits THEM. But everybody deep down probably recognises that no-deal would be only slightly better than accepting a really shitty deal. Hence the relevant parties negotiate...which is what they are doing. People getting their knickers in a twist without knowing the detail are simply wasting their time imo...no amount of knicker twisting by you or I will affect the outcome.

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[Monners]

I think @Monners asked the question multiple times and no one was able to answer it.

I have asked many times, and of many people, including politicians. Nobody can offer an appropriate answer.

If evidence had been produced at the time of the referendum that the UK would be better off out of the EU (and I mean in the long term economically), then I would have voted to leave. There was no evidence then, and there isn't any now.

Just my view - don't hang me for it

 

[Grendel]

During world wars as a matter of national security. I don’t think that counts. As far as I know it’s only happened during Tory rule as a bail out and then only individual companies not the entire rail network. Labour did it through political ideology, an ideology abandoned by centralist New Labour and returned to by loony left leaning current labour. You don’t half talk some bollocks. You spend half your time claiming Corbyn is a socialist or communist now all of a sudden he’s a centralist.

The railway was nationalised well past world war 1 and then even during brief privatisation was significantly reduced in terms of operators.

Many moderate and traditional right of centre countries have a national public transport policy

I’m mocking Corbyn for being all of a sudden centralist on a specific issue. Come on Tony can’t you find the answer on Wiki?